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My Dealings with Joseph A. Freilich

Last Updated: 15th Aug 2009

My Dealings with Joseph A. Freilich



R.W.M. Woodside



Abstract
It is a very sad event when an enthusiastic Mindater has neither the ability nor apparently feels any desire to honour their obligations. I write this with a heavy heart but do so in the hopes of protecting others.

Summary
To my amazement the stock market treated me well in 2006 and 2007, so I was a newbie entering the high end specimen market in 2008. I've loved minerals all my life and I felt fairly confident with kilobuck specimens. My dealings with Joe began optimistically in the spring of 2008 but by last September things had deteriorated to the point that I sent this email to the management group here at Mindat:

"Rob Woodside [ PM ]
Joe Freilich
04, September 2008 07:37PM Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 894
Has any one had any experience with Joe Freilich? The few reports I have heard are not good. Trying to avoid a lot of he said, she said, here are the simple facts of my problem that I can back up with emails and Fed Ex receipts. Last spring I asked him about a Mimetite and a Pyromorphite. I hesitated about the pyro but Joe convinced me to get it. Since this was my first dealing with him, his request for wiring the money first seemed reasonable. I wired him $12,000.00 ($4800. for the Mimetite and $7200. for the pyro). They arrived quickly. The mimetite was fine, though there turned out to be no labels (see towards bottom of posting at http://www.mindat.org/mesg-15-107213.html ). The promorphite on the other hand had no lustre and two sorts of damage (as I had suspected from the photos, but Joe called them xl faces!!!). The damage was minor, but with a 10x loupe you could see that some dings had lustre and others were matte like the rest of the piece. From this I concluded the piece had been acid dipped to clean it up, losing its lustre, and then had suffered the lustrous dings. I didn't explain this, I merely told Joe that I thought it too damaged and I couldn't fall in love with it. So I immediately returned it and asked for a refund. Joe said he was updating his site and rather than get a refund, I should check out the new listings. I waited a few weeks for this and when they finally appeared there was nothing I wanted, to Joe's incredulity. By the end of June I wanted my money back and Joe asked if he could do it in two payments with a couple of checks in several weeks. I was surprised, but said OK. I then went to Denver during July and when I got back there was nothing fron Joe. In Denver I asked about Joe and one dealer said he'd need some aspirins before such a conversation. The reports about Joe were universally bad and everyone I talked to about this was quite sympathetic. So when I got back I asked Joe to please wire me the money. The upshot is that Joe is merely putting me off and goading me. Apparently Joe patrols Mindat looking for newbies. With his website linked to his mindat photos people can easily buy from him, as I did. If people are happy with what they pay for, there are no problems. Perhaps I should have asked him for some quartz or calcite instead of cash to at least recover some value, but until now I was hoping to get the cash. I'm pretty well convinced that that is impossible. Personally I'd be happy to Ban him and his photos from Mindat and I wonder what others think. See you all in Denver."

So I set about trying to mend fences and get some value for my $7200. Then in October 2008, Joe still owing me $7200. for the Pyromorphite was advertising it on the Favourite Mineral of the Day thread (http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,17,107929,113657#msg-113657). Later on down that page he gives a provenance that it didn't have when he sold it to me for $7200. As with the mimetite, no labels ever arrived.


The Pyro with added lustre


I did try to recover some value out of the $7200. Joe owes me me by asking him to send me Ernie Schlicter's Legrandite. However Joe's wife's lawyers would not let him send the piece as per the emails below!!! Sadly Joe says he can no longer send anything out on approval!!! That pretty much convinced me that Joe was not going to honour his debt. I was left unsure as to how to proceed. Then Colin Manlove posted under Lost and Stolen Specimens (see Appendix 1) about a similar experience he had with an anonymous dealer. I believed Colin and posted, calling the anonymous dealer a thief. I soon found that it was Joe who still had Colin's $2000. and his mimetite despite Colin's request for the return of either. So Colin and I sent Joe the following email:

Dear Mr Freilich,

You have owed us respectively $7000 and $2000 for so long as to cast doubt on your probity. Please remit these amounts to us by valid cheque drawn on your own bank account as follows:

$4000 to Dr Woodside and $1000 to Mr Manlove by 15 June 2009.

$3000 to Dr Woodside and $1000 to Mr Manlove by 15 August 2009.

Should you fail to do this we will have you named on Mindat and proceed to further action against you.
Yours sincerely,
CM.
RW.

After a year I had forgotten that Joe owed me $7200. and not $7000. Here is Joe's reply;

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-28-09 5:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Receipt of e mail
I have received your email and will respond shortly
Joseph

To date Joe hasn't responded, but he did fall all over himself trying to make it clear that he was the anonymous dealer who had Colin's $2000. and his specimen. Joe's emails about this posted below are rather sad. Joe was quite upset that this matter was made public and not settled quietly behind the scenes. That is totally astounding as it was Joe who was insisting on a public admission. No one had publicly identified Joe before he outed himself!!! On completion of this article I will show it to Joe and ask for full repayment. Since Joe has all the emails, he also has our banking information and he can wire the money to Colin and me, as above with the last payment to me raised to $3200. to cover the full $7200. owing.

Of course you are reading this because it is after June 15 and neither Colin nor myself have received the monies Joe owes.

Conclusion
I very much wish there was a conclusion. In the hopes of avoiding further rancour I merely present the emails in the following appendices and let the reader come to their own conclusions.

Aug 15, 2009 When this article appeared it there were some strong reactions that can be found at:
http://www.mindat.org/mesg-56-142002.html
By the end of July 2009 Joe had repaid Colin in full and to date has given me a partial payment of the monies owed.

Appendix I Colin's complaint and Joe's replies

Colin's complaint

"Colin Manlove [ PM ]
'Chromian Mimetite' from Tsumeb
May 25, 2009 09:53AM IP/Host: 89.242.18.74
Registered: 1 year ago
Posts: 10
In late 2006 a very well-known dealer sold me a 'Chromian Mimetite' from Tsumeb for $2000. In mid-2008 I saw an almost identical specimen on another dealer's site for $550, but there described as Smithsonite. I asked this dealer how one might tell between Mimetite and Smithsonite, and he said that this would involve a very simple acid test whereby one would fizz and the other wouldn't. I then sent my specimen in August 2008 to the original dealer asking him to have it tested.

Over the next four months I heard only prevarications about how long it was taking, how the report was nearly ready, how the mineral had to be sent for another test, and how much this was costing the dealer. Finally the specimen returned from its 'investigations' with the verdict that its identity could not be determined. I asked for a copy of the report(s) and was refused.

The dealer then told me he had offered the specimen to someone else, who was willing to pay $3500 for it. As it was still my property I demanded that he return it to me with compensation for it's not being what he originally claimed. This he refused, saying I had the option of getting either the mineral or my money back. In the end I settled for asking for my money back. This was in January this year.

When the money did not appear I asked why, and was told that since it was a long time since I had bought the mineral, and since the dealer had been so generous as to take it back and have it tested, he would send it 'in my time, not yours'.

The discussion now became acrimonious, and eventually I tired of it and agreed to give him longer to pay. Two weeks ago I wrote to say I had given him over four months and had heard nothing. His wife emailed that he was travelling abroad, but she would tell him my message when he phoned in that evening (May 13). Since then, nothing.

What should I do?"

Joe's replies

"To Everyone who is reading this post by Mr. Manlove,
I am the dealer he is referring to, and I would be most anxious to present the " other side of this story" which would make perfectly clear the reasons for my actions...I would do so privately, as, unlike mr Manlove, do not engage in slanderous assaults on people without the fairness of the issues being represented........continued

Continued......I would never boast about my accommplishments in the hobby, but somehow i feel that since my integrity is being attacked, I shall. There are few people in this hobby who have contributed as much as I have over the years....from major donations to museums in the USA...( please note the specimens on display at the Smithsonian) to exhibits at shows, involving world class displays and presentations...circa 2000 Tucson, to the funding of entire issues of the Mineralogical Record, to major donations of books and bindings to the Mineralogical Record Library, to scholarship funds where indigent, but brilliant young students have an opportunity to obtain their degrees in mineralogy....funded by me, at great personal sacrifice. continued"

This next continuation was deleted by Mindat Management as they thought it possibly hurtful to third parties, so I have replaced the names with letters

"In 1997, Mr. XXXX was raking leaves in YYYY's backyard for minimum wage, and barely had food to eat. I hired XXXX, and offered him the opportunity to build my collection with me. He as much as lived with me for three years, and gradually, by virtue of his now renewed sense of importance in the hobby, was literally saved from his former path of destruction.....I felt that a man of this legendary stature should not spend the balance of his life in the agony of failure. Over the following years, XXXX was, and is now, restored to his position of prominence. After my auction in 2001, I realized that XXXX would be out of work again.....I approached Sotheby's in New York, and insisted that they employ XXXX as the consultant in my sales activities....as so it happened!!...continued"

Joe continues

"My other contributions to this hobby are numerous, and totally " gratis ". I have been a supporter of the Mineralogical Record Library, and gifted a very expensive binding for one of the libraries rare works.....My donations and contributions to educational funds in mineralogy are well know and respected....The Smithsonian was recently gifted a very expensive and perhaps worlds best Spessartine and smokey quartz by me....an institution that needs assistance....I am currently funding a young, indigent but brilliant student obtain his degree in mineralogy...a chance he would never have.....So, when these two gentleman reach out to try and slanderize my name over an easily resolvable financial issue, which is much more a series of misunderstandings, I really resent that....I assure the readership that once they hear " my side" they will see the nature of this issue in a non partial viewpoint.....But trying to embarass me into a refund? Why gentleman?....continued

and furthermore........Mr. Manlove...you returned a specimen that you purchased from me three years ago......you approached me in anger because another delaer was showing what you considered to be a comparable for $650.00...when in fact, in was smaller, far less aesthetic, and damaged....your approach to me was price Mr. Manlove..You came back to me with a formula that you devised that I should only have charged you $750.00, and you insisted on a refund.....YOU ARE NEGOTIATING PRICE MR. MANLOVE, THREE YEARS LATER!!... there is not a single dealer in the industry that would even consider the conversation with you, after this time period, and with this objective in mind...( incidentally, the transcript of Mr. Manloves communications with me pointing all of this out is available from his emails, with headers). When Mr. Manlove saw that his efforts to achieve a discount were not working, he addressed the identity issue as a second tack. So.....you see the second part of the story, that perhaps Dr. Woodside and Mr. Ralph have not been made aware of....continued

Mr. Manlove's objective....an email below asking me to match another dealers inferior specimen...and...three years later....!!

.....The mineral for which I paid you $2000 is now worth considerably less than this, while still being my possession. Allowing a small amount for your 'aesthetic' remarks concerning the ( another dealer) specimen, most of which I consider to be special pleading, I repeat my request for the return of $1250 of my original payment. And since I fail to see how a rich man like yourself is unable to afford so trifling a sum, I also repeat my request that you pay this in two equal instalments, starting now.
CNM.

Message Received: Dec 30 2008, 05:29 PM
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Subject: response
hello colin,
as you could no doubt imagine, I cannot have my clients established value for my specimens.....especially when "apples are being compared to pears". The xxxx piece is vastly inferior as related to crystal form of the yellow crystals as well as the white groups. there is no damage to mine, and the size is likewise an issue. I took the liberty of showing it to other collectors since I was quite sure you would be passing on it, and my offer of $ 3500.00 was readily accepted..of course i would not commit until I heard from you, as it is still yours. the fact that the supporting paperwork...Julius Zwiebel, with his hand written notes, makes it a worthwhile historical specimen to many people here in the USA. So....if you would like full credit, we can arrange that, but will require some more time than what you indicated to gather the funds....
Thanks for understanding...oh, btw, my final expenses amounted to $500.00 for the battery of tests and analysis.....which i can ill afford...
Seasons Greetings!! Joe

Joseph Freilich [ PM ]
and furthermore part two new
30, May 2009 11:56AM IP/Host: ool-457a5514.dyn.optonline.net
Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 691
and so Mr. Manlove....whose integrity is really in question here sir?...have you shared the truth with the readership of Mindat?? , or simply used this opportunity out of whatever motivates you, to slander and discredit me....j

Mr. Manlove's email
Hi,
Well, I still like the 'Chromian Mimetite' as a specimen, so I would like it back with a refund, if the investigations haven't damaged it. Since I originally bought it as a unique specimen, and that as well as what it is is now in question, I consider it now worth no more than $750, and would like $1250 back, in two successive monthly payments of $625, on 7 Jan and 7 Feb. You have my bank details.
CNM."

Those are the "He Said She Said" potings and both Joe and Colin agree on the following:

2006 Colin pays Joe $2000 for a Tsumeb Chromian mimetite
2006-2009 Stuff Happens. Colin sends Joe the specimen for testing. Poor Joe spends $500. on an inconclusive analysis that couldn’t tell smithsonite from mimetite. Joe can’t produce a report or invoice for this work. However due to the increasing prices of Tsumeb specimens, Joe has a customer who’ll pay $3500. for the piece. Colin never sees the piece again.
2009 Colin has neither the $2000. nor the specimen despite asking for the return of either.


Joes Unapproved and Deleted Replies

In Appendix II you'll find an email from me to Joe offering to help him with his Mindat woes once the $7200. was repaid. At that point I realized that I was conflicted by my position as a Mindat manager and my problems with Joe. Since then I have assiduously avoided having anything to do with Joe at Mindat, never approving, deleting, editing or touching Joe's contributions. The other managers will attest to this.

To post on the "Lost and Stolen" board a manager must approve the posting as things can get pretty nasty pretty quickly when theft is involved. After first claiming he was Denis Vernet in another thread, Joe's postings outing himself started showing up for approval on Colin's Chromian Mimetite thread. My posts about the anonymous dealer being a thief were still there. Later another manager refused approval and deleted Joe's desired postings, possibly in an attempt to stop Joe from incriminating himself. Once Joe had outed himself other Mindaters complained about my thief postings and so I deleted them. Joe was quite eager to get these posted and since they bear on the $7200. he owes me I sadly reproduce them here. They are a microcosm of Joe's antics and give a dismal picture of his mind's workings that you see over and over again in his emails.


"Unapproved Message
( continued)......Dr. Wooside's claim is also based on an intrinsic misunderstanding between two parties....which again, I would be glad to share the information with anyone interested, in private e mails....I really do resent, and have lost all respect for these two gentleman, who resort to libelous and a slanderous approach to a business problem, that when examined objectively, could and would be adjudicated in a civilized manner...Sometimes I sense that these people use these attacks as a way of venting their frustrations....certainly for these two " experts" in our hobby did not take the civilized approach....First, they have tried to have me kicked out of mindat, where I have been a faithful contributor for many years, and have not only uploaded thousands of images, but have also contributed daily to the the various forums, and have had images selected for the upcoming best of species project....can you boast the same Mr. Manlove? or was your last post yet another beef about being unfairly treated?

Unapproved Message
So...in review...I have never refused a refund to either gentleman, not do i now....even though I have serious questions as to the legitimacy of their claims....Dr. Woodsides last communications with me was that he was considering a legrandite in exchange for the refund, which I was happy to accept in trade for the debt....We had and have had an ongoing converstaion about Dr. Woodside making a specimen selection, which I informed him he would be seeing updates of new minerals regularly, from which he can choose...I have not heard a word from him in 8 months!!, assuming he was holding out for the next update which will be launched this week., including a birds eye view of everything new from the mindat postings.......No arguments, no threats from him...pure amiability...in fact, It was I who last nudged him to make a selection!! ( all documented by emails available)...but, somehow the most civilized, educated and erudite professionals fll vicem to the "Lynch mob mentality" as mr. Manlove and Dr. Woodside have fallen pray to.......lets string him up...!!!! Right fellas??

as we speak, I am arranging what I believe will be a satisfactory resolve to this issue, and will communicate same to the affected parties.......Thanks all for listening...joe

Unapproved Message
That is disgusting.......you have absolutely no basis for that remark...you are an angry, hostile and as evidenced by your frequent rude attacks on other people , openly antagonistic individual...get a life Dr. Woodside....joe

I gather from these that Joe claims that:
1) He never refused a refund
2) He offered Ernie Schlicter's Lagrandite "in exchange for the refund"

So after over a year why do Colin and I not have a refund??? Why did Joe not send me the Legrandite??? Read on for the answers.


Appendix II E mails concerning the $7200.00 that Joe won't return

Contact and worries about Pyro

In a message dated 5/10/2008 6:10:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi,
I have just spent a delightful few hours looking at the wonderful specimens on your website. Thank you!!!

In the description of Pyromorphite 102, you make no mention of damage and in the enlargements I see reflections that might be from damage. How clean is the piece?

The Mimetite 105 appears in the photos as you describe with no damage. Can you help any on the price?
Cheers,
Rob Woodside

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-10-08 3:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello Rob,

what a wonderful thing to read on an e mail...several hours on my site...thanks so much!..Yes, both pieces are remarkable fresh of defects and damage of any kind..of course, for specimens that came out over 100 years ago, there may be abrasions on edges, but I would never tolerate damage on any specimens I own, unless specifically indicated..
For immediate cash by bank wire, I can offer a discount, depending on if you are ordering several, or if even one, I will do what I can..thanks again...Joe

In a message dated 5/10/2008 7:13:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your speedy reply.
Some regard bruises and abrasions on old classics as a badge of honour. Sadly I do not. You are right, it is next to impossible to get undamaged old timers. I have just about given up trying to get a clean Broken Hill Pyromorphite. Sorry to be a pain about abrasions. I will trust your judgement until I see the pieces. It will take a few days to liberate the cash, but I should be able to wire it by the end of next week. So what is your best price on these two?
Thanks,
Rob

Joe warns about Returns and Refunds

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-10-08 6:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello again, on the 4th row from the top, right image, you can see the " peel away" ( as I refer to it, where an ancient trim job was done)...its not damage, but it appears as a rough area( the mimetite)...I am attaching some additional views which are the " least flattering" so you can see everything, even that which is not visible from the display views..I do this because i would rather settle on what you will or will not accept before hand, rather then getting involved with returns and refunds...
the webprice is $5000 plus $8500.00, totaling $13,500.00. I can offer them at $12,000.00.

Thanks, Joe

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-11-08 8:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Hello Rob,
Just touching base...any further thoughts on the specimens?
Hope you had a nice holiday weekend...regards, Joe Freilich

In a message dated 5/12/2008 1:45:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
Thanks so much for this. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I spent the day educating myself on pyros and mimetites. By God there are a lot of them posted at Mindat!!! It seems that Kevin Ward bought your Campylite as both of you have submitted the same photo to Mindat. Your upload number is 154529 and his is 154561, so you didn’t have it long and it is posted as sold on Kevin’s website. Amazing stuff to be found on the net!!!

What you call “peel away”, I call edge damage and it is quite acceptable. If not, one could only collect floaters. That would be great, if such specimens existed. The Mimetite certainly looks acceptable, but as with all specimens, one must see them in person to make a final decision. At this point I don’t think we are wasting time or effort on the mimetite. Do you think the colours reflect the arsenic to phosphorus ratio? The red Bunker Hill material is explained as high arsenic content and someone mentioned somewhere that the Caldbreck Falls material is high in phosphorus. If this is unknown and I get the piece I’d like to analyse the colours to see.

Your comment about edge abrasions has me worried about the Pyromorphite. I very much appreciate the back side photo which shows the acceptable contact damage and the black gossan that hosted the pyro. The xls are rounded and what has me worried are the reflections from the corners where the prism faces meet the pinacoid. I can’t tell from the photos whether this is the natural rounding of the corners or the dreaded edge abrasions. I suspect there is a little of both. Actually on re-examining these photos as well as those of it at Mindat, I am coming to the conclusion that there may be too much distracting abrasion for me. I am not sure how to resolve this without seeing the piece. Will you be at Denver? If the piece is not sold by then maybe I can check it out there. Initially I was only going to collect completely damage free pieces- edge or contact OK, but no broken or bruised xls. Just try to find a Chinese piece with no broken xls!!! The upshot is that Broken Hill Pyros are just too damaged, but I did keep a Daoping Pyro that has a couple of unnoticeable broken xls. While there is an “Old Master” premium on Bad Ems pieces, $8 grand is a lot different than the $800. I paid for the Daoping piece and for this kind of price one expects something pristine as this one may be.

Thank you very much for the discount to $12 grand, every little bit helps. Let’s concentrate on the Mimetite. What is your best price for that alone? Please send me your banking info for the wire transfer.
Cheers,
Rob

Joe says the pyro is undamaged and offers a refund if I’m not happy!!!

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-12-08 1:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hi,
as if by divine intervention, i awoke to find your e mail at 4:00 am this morning!. Wow, the magnetic draw of minerals and e mails! I decided to 10x loupe the pyro, and lo and behold, found the so called "white spots" to be actual reflections from the tiny plates that are situated at a slightly different angle than the primary terminal area. When shifted side to side, the white disappears! The specimen is in remarkably superior condition..
Unfortunately, there is not much that i can do on the price of the mimetite..i feel that I underpriced it to start off with. If $ 200.00 off will make a difference..so be it...( money is money). If you would like to take a shot at the pyro, i suggest you do...it really is quite special, and you would get a refund if not happy anyway..its your call ( postage at no charge)...here is the bank info:” ...

“Kind regards, Joe

In a message dated 5/13/2008 5:19:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe.
So there is some mosaic growth or parquetting in the xls. Hmm... O.K let’s try it. I’m off to the bank with your info. You should have the $12 grand in a day or so. When you get the cash, could you please send the specimens to:”...

“You got lucky with your Campy trim. It makes my day when that happens and I’m haunted for life when a specimen is wrecked. Fortunately I haven’t wrecked one for many years now. I notice the professional trimmers want you to sign a release, just in case they wreck the piece, so you might as well do it yourself!!! However, there is a spot of yellow at the bottom, in the middle of the piece as photoed, that looks like a plucked campylite. Never the less it seems to me that you can’t get a more classic Campylite. I am surprised it is still an option and not advertised on the web. I would have thought it would quickly disappear into someone’s English or Classic collection. I am trying to collect xls that are at least a cm in size. This Campylite has the characteristic slightly smaller xls, while screen measurements and ratios appear to imply the xls on the Campylite I’ve ordered are about a cm in size. The colouration ( = Chemistry) of this piece really fascinates me. I seem to be reassembling Marty’s collection.
Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-13-08 6:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello rob, thanks very much for the wire...I am very impressed with your scholarly publishings...let me know if you want to see the other campy pics.....Regards, Joe

In a message dated 5/13/2008 10:02:34 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
That’s very kind of you to say , but what scholarly publishings??? I wrote one Min Rec article with four other guys. You, I believe, had a whole issue devoted to a collection you assembled and auctioned!!! Sixtyfive grand for a Huanzala pyrite was amazing, but I was very sorry to have missed your Bismuth. I think it went for 7 grand. I put out some feelers for it, but it fell into some black hole. Oddly the Royal Ontario who bought my element & sulphide collection, had only one element crystallized in a better specimen than I had and that was a Bismuth that came from the same pocket as yours!!! ( I had a single 6 cm hexagonal plate and a not very aesthetic 6 cm twinned rhomb) Although the xls on yours were a bit smaller, it was a very aesthetic piece. So even though your scholarly work far exceeds mine, we seem to have a similar taste in specimens.
Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-15-08 4:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hi rob, the fedex tracking number is:

8603 0014 5703
good luck with customs! Joe

Specimens Arrive, Unlike the photo the Pyro has no lustre, and damage!!!

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: May-16-08 2:47 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Hi Joe,
Both pieces arrived safe and sound. Thank you very much.

I am really pleased with the mimetite. It is a very interesting piece with several growth episodes. I wonder if the green is pyro or mimetite? I’m eager to take it to Bart Cannon and find out.

The Pyromorphite is a somewhat different than I expected. It has no lustre!!! There is a lot of mosaic growth as you said and the xls are a good size, especially for Bad Ems. Sadly there are lots of edge abrasions which really don’t show very much. On balance I think I should return it. This is a long weekend here in Canada, so I’ll send it overnight next Tuesday. I’ll poke around your website and see if I can find something to replace it.
Cheers,
Rob

The Promised Refund is asked for!!!

In a message dated 5/20/2008 7:43:42 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
It seems your parcel arrived without attracting the revenuers’ attention. Let’s hope this one does the same. The Fed Ex tracking number is:

8621 6396 9196

I sat with the Pyromorphite beside me all week end, hoping to fall in love with it, but to no avail. It is a venerable piece. I don’t think I’ve ever seen larger Bad Ems xls. Please let me know when it arrives. If you have sent the labels under separate cover, I’ll return the pyro labels as soon as I get them.

I revisited your website and there are many lovely things there. Unfortunately neither the La Farges or Bunker Hill pieces really grab me, so I’d ask you to send me a cheque For the difference. My address is:”...

“Please let me know when you update your site.

Thanks so much for the Mimetite. I really have fallen in love with it.
Cheers,
Rob

Joe cannot send the refund!!!

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: June-17-08 5:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: From joe Freilich
Hello Rob,

I noticed that there were no other selections made to replace the returned specimen...was there nothing there that caught your eye?
Would love to resolve this, and was hoping we could do so with specimens....thanks and regards, Joe

In a message dated 7/3/2008 7:05:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
Have you found the Mimetite labels yet???
I’m headed down to Denver in a week or so and could use the cash ($7200= $12000 sent - $4800 Mimetite), so could you please send me a cheque, including the mimetite labels. Don’t lose heart, if you photo something I like we can always wire it back. Will you be at Denver in Sept?
Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-03-08 5:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
hello rob,

have you considered this one?
cheers, joe

http://www.freilichminerals.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=509&keyword=campylite&searchby=author&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_2683=12151117652683e96da349a9ee8af92c

In a message dated 7/4/2008 11:57:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
Yes it is a lovely classic Campylite. You got very lucky with your trimming. I don’t think I have ever seen a better one, but I’m not after that now. Yes I know I probably will never be offered a better one. Thanks anyway.

Have you come across the Mimetite labels? Will you be in Denver?
Cheers,
Rob

Joe has cash flow probs. Needs to write two Separate checks!!!

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-05-08 8:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
hello rob, first of all, i want to thank you for your patience...you are obviously a very fine person....Unfortunately, money is in tight supply at this time, with business being slow....this campy that i sent pics of really is a killer..not that I am trying to jam it down your throat, but i just cannot imagine you finding a better specimen anywhere. Plus, my selling price is $9000, but would let it go for the refund due.....In the event that it must be cash, i will need more time, and will split the refund into two payments...the first i believe can be in a few weeks...sorry for the delay and i appreciate your understanding...joe


From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-05-08 8:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
no luck with the labels...i hope to be at denver..joe

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-07-08 12:00 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe
Hello Joe,
I am surprised and disappointed with your cash flow, but I do appreciate your candour. Sometimes I have needed time to pay off debts and I appreciate the accommodation others have made for me. I look forward to the arrival of your first cheque.

Since I suffer cash flow problems as well, what is more surprising is that the mimetite labels have disappeared. Please keep looking for them.

Thank you for the pyrargyrite photos. It is a lovely specimen, but I’m avoiding specimens that are smaller than 6 cm.

I look forward to meeting you in Denver.
Cheers,
Rob

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-28-08 4:39 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe
Hello Joe,
Well it has been a few weeks and no cheque. I now need this money very much after my recent trip to Denver. Could you please wire me the $7200. you owe me as soon as possible. The wire info is as follows:”...

“Have you found the Mimetite Labels Yet??? Marty Zinn doesn’t recognize the specimen, says it is not the kind of thing he collected, and his catalogue number is not on the piece. In view of the recent confusion between you and Kevin Ward over the campylite locality, I am beginning to have serious doubts about this specimen’s provenance and locality. Please find the Mimetite labels.

Yours Truly,
Rob Woodside

The Mimetite Labels

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-28-08 6:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
this from dan weinrich, regarding the campylite:
I bought it from Collectors Edge when they had Marty's collection. At the time it had his label. I sold the specimen to a collector; that guy later asked me to sell it for him, when you bought it. He lost the label in the meantime.

I have sold Marty back his own specimens and he does not remember them. It definitely was in his collection at one time.

I know Mr. Woodside; you can send him this e-mail if you like.

Dan Weinrich

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-30-08 9:37 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe
Thank you for this. Dan has alleviated any doubts I was developing about the piece.”....

“Rob Woodside

Things start getting ugly

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-28-08 5:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
bob, i would suggest you re review my website and mindat.....cash flow being what it is.......jaf

In a message dated 7/29/2008 11:22:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Joe I would suggest you make arrangements with your bank to return my money

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-29-08 9:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
and i would suggest you make a selection from my various sources....A 5 thousand piece assortment of fine quality specimens must have something for you bob, as exacting as you are.....that would be the best way out of this .......on the other hand, as the funds become available, will send them....but not before bob...you have been patient but so have I.....jaf

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-30-08 9:37 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe” ...
“Strange as it may seem to you, there is nothing else posted on your website or at Mindat that I want in my collection.

In another email you say ” on the other hand, as the funds become available, will send them....but not before bob...you have been patient but so have I.....jaf “

It has now been some months since I wired you the cash and returned the $7200. piece. I have tried to work with you over this and it has been nearly a month of silence since you said you would return my money. Joe, this is not the way to run a business. When can I expect to get my money?
Rob Woodside

Again Joe suggests Two payments

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: July-30-08 9:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
hello ,

yes, that is rather strange.....what categories do you seek....? i am sure we can work through this...i never intend to have confrontations with my clients..on the contrary, i bend over backwards to please them...i am sure i can split the payments in two, and get this done with in several weeks....jaf


From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: August-06-08 9:33 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe
Joe,
I notice that your promise to pay me the $7200. you owe me has not changed in the month since you first promised to pay me in two instalments in “several weeks time”. I’m sorry that your business is so bad that you can’t repay your debts. Could you please give me an honest estimate of how many weeks “several” will turn out to be?
Yours truly,
Rob.

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: August-06-08 10:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: post barber shop.....regards, joe
actually, on the contrary, business is quite good...that is not the problem...collections are very slow, and other debts that precede yours, are the issue...it is still totally inconceivable that out of 5000 specimens you cannot find a few for your collection....I am selling to the major collectors and museums of the world bob.....jaf

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: August-11-08 10:45 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: post barber shop.....regards, joe
Hello Joe,
Glad to hear that business is good. I know what you mean about collections being slow. Could you please tell me how much debt is taking precedence over the $7200. 00 you owe me? It has now been several weeks since you promised repayment in “several weeks”. How many more weeks do you think will elapse before you can pay your debts? Glad to hear you are selling to major museums and collections
Rob”

Joe’s ex-wife Robin steps in to help with Joe’s medical problems and his business. It is heartening to see that their relationship has survived the divorce

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: August-20-08 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello dr. woodside,
this is from robin, joe's wife. he has been out of contact and unable to receive cell phone calls or messages, as he has had diabetic related complications and is off the premises at this time...i expect him back this week and i am sure he will call......best, robin freilich

In a message dated 8/20/2008 6:36:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Robin,
Thanks so much for this. You have relieved my anxieties tremendously. I hope Joe is O.K. My boy now 20, came down with type 1 diabetes when he was 16 and I have just returned from the Doctor’s office and the good news is that my type 2 Diabetes is responding to my efforts at diet and exercise, but the chlorestoral has yet to figure this out and as a consequence I just got $200. worth of statins which I must now start taking. I’m very optimistic about my problems which are minor compared to what can result from full blown diabetes. Please give Joe my best wishes for a fast recovery.
Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: August-20-08 4:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello sir,

well i can see you understand first hand the misery of this disease. Joe's onset of what is referred to as " type 1 1/2'...an oddball for sure, came on when he was 50....he is now 56, and we have no idea how long he was walking around with incredible thirst and urination frequency...by the time he was treated, he had advanced peripheral neuropathy, rendering his feet totally numb. including "charcot" disease, an awful deformation of the foot. He stumbles constantly, and is now on large amounts of insulin and painkillers..In spite of all this...( with high blood pressure) his attitude has remained remarkably good....
I know he is very concerned with solving the issue of your repayment, and he will be in touch with you soon, I am sure....thanks for understanding, and i hope you, and your son do well......lets all look forward to a cure one day...best, robin”

Joe Returns to Mindat, but doesn't return the $7200.

“In a message dated 8/29/2008 11:42:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
Hi Joe,
I’m glad to see from your Mindat post that you are back in the saddle. I hope things are under control, diabetes is such a nasty thing. I very much appreciated Robin’s notes.

I’m hoping you can send me the $7200 owed before the Denver show. It would ease my mind considerably if you could tell me when I might expect payment. It has now been nearly two months since you promised payment in several weeks.

Cheers,
Rob Woodside

After 10 days silence I saw Joe posting at Mindat about missing labels. So I gave him a poke with a Mindat posting:
Joseph Freilich [ PM ]
Re: Storage and Display Of Mineral Labels
31, August 2008 09:35AM IP/Host: ool-44c2ff4f.dyn.optonline.net
Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 703
Hi Gail,
Thanks for your constructive insights...There is an unfortunate habit among minerals dealers, especially the old timers ( of which i hope I do not qualify to be considered as such yet! ) to keep the labels for their own label collections, and send off the specimen with only the new label, I believe this is absolutely horrible! The entire chain of provenance is lost forever!. If the need to own the label is so overwhelming, at least supply a photocopy! ...Once again, thanks to everyone for an impressive and informative response. joe

Rob Woodside [ PM ]
Re: Storage and Display Of Mineral Labels
01, September 2008 01:17PM IP/Host: d75-157-61-2.bchsia.telus.net
Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 907
Recently, I bought a Mimetite from a dealer who for the moment will remain nameless. This was my first purchase from this dealer. It was advertised as from Dry Gill and out of Marty Zinn's collection. It came with no labels!!! But at least I have the invoice. What was troubling was that Marty not only didn't recognize the piece, but also said it wasn't the kind of thing he likes to collect. (It is a flat piece and Marty says he likes things more three dimensional.) I really became concerned when the number that Marty glues on all his specimens wasn't there. After a few emails this dealer took me seriously and put me in contact with Dan Weinrich from whom he had gotten the piece. I know and trust Dan and so after a couple of emails I now believe that it is indeed from Dry Gill as labeled and photographed here at Mindat. Rock makes an important point that we all should follow: The locality info is crucial and should be affixed to the specimen. I knew it was Mimetite as I had already had it probed and found that the red, yellow and green respectively had an increasing phosphorus content. As far as I can tell this piece has been handled by Marty Zinn (Sorry Marty, but others accuse you of not remembering your specimens), Bryan Lees, Dan Wienrich, a collector, Dan Wienrich, the dealer who sold it to me and not a single label survives. What is worse is that it is a killer piece and and was possibly recovered in the 19th century. As Joe laments "...I believe this is absolutely horrible! The entire chain of provenance is lost forever!. "

Immediately Joe outed himself !!!

Joseph Freilich [ PM ]
Re: Storage and Display Of Mineral Labels
01, September 2008 02:57PM IP/Host: ool-44c2ff4f.dyn.optonline.net
Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 703
Dear Rob and Everyone,
I am the dealer that Rob is referring to, and other than the fact that it did take a few e mails to respond....( have had some medical problems of late), I am certainly happy that the issue was resolved to Robs satisfaction. Many is the time that, in the course of purchasing specimens, the chain of provenance is lost and the specimen has no label. Dan Weinrich had told me that the label was lost when he sold the specimen for the first time, and was never recovered....Many dealers are also prone to " creative" problem solving, by making up so called original labels...To me, this is worse than not suppling a label!...Many times i will go to considerable expense and time to research a specimen's original ownors...I know how much this means to collectors now a days, and to me as well....
Rob is a very fine individual, and is likewise very patient and understanding....a delight for any mineral dealer to work with...And thanks Rob for sharing this story with the group.....Joe Freilich

Rob Woodside [ PM ]
Re: Sorage and Display Of Mineral Labels
02, September 2008 10:01AM IP/Host: d75-157-61-2.bchsia.telus.net
Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 907
Thanks for the kind words, Joe.

Paul, You have given me a sliver of hope. I keep forgetting the power of Mindat and hope you get some help on your specimens. Back in the '60's I was trading with the BRGM and got some fine specimens. These were old European classics with no provenance. On enquiry, I seem to remember Dr. Sanfeld replying that somehow the labels had been lost. One of them was a silver in several mm cubes in an orange Barite with traces of acid eaten green calcite and, if I remember correctly, the locality on the label was Freiberg. The specimen is now in the Royal Ontario Museum (RWC 80). In '87 I had the good fortune to spend a day at the Natural History Museum in Vienna. There I learned the meaning of "Dienstag Geschlosen" (sp?). So I stayed an extra day and missed my Hydrofoil on the Danube to Budapest. It was well worth it. To my joy and surprise, I found an identical specimen labeled from the Daniel Mine, Wittichen on display. I guess it is always Caveat Emptor, but more so when there is no provernance.

The hope that Paul has given me is that perhaps some one might recognize my Mimetite or similar material and might help with its history. It appears at:

Newly captioned Mimetite

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The poke worked! Joe is closing a big deal. Good News soon!!!

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-01-08 3:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello Rob, I read your post and responded...I am back from an awful ordeal, that my wife tells me you are no stranger to....I am in the midst of closing a deal of some magnitude, and I hope to be back to you soon with good news...cheers, Joe

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 11:17 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Hi Joe,

Thanks for your reply and your kind words at Mindat. The process of building trust is at times a slow one, but we are getting there and your Mindat post has gone a long way in that direction.

I’m so glad you have your health back. It is so difficult to keep diabetes at bay. I wish you all the best at keeping control of it. My Haemoglobin sugars are now down to 6.1 (from 6.7) in the units they use here in Canada. Under 6.0 is considered normal here and over 7 is considered Type 2. Hopefully with diet and exercise I can put off what some say is inevitable. My son, on the other hand, developed full blown type 1 when he was 16 (from a bad infection) and his high life as an undergrad gave him 9.4 last month. He said he was surprised and grateful it wasn’t any higher. Recently my eyesight has deteriorated markedly and I’ve graduated from reading glasses to prescription lenses. Since my forties I’ve needed reading glasses with an increasing power, but the recent decline has been so rapid that I think the onset of type 2, which I have not been paying close enough attention to for the past couple of years, is responsible. I’m now taking it very seriously.

I also wish you the best of luck in closing this tentative deal. I’d feel a lot better if you could give me a tentative date. When I get stuff on credit I always ask for more time than with good luck I think I really need. People are so happy and surprised when the cash arrives early. After my trip to Denver in July and the depredations of the stock market I have barely enough cash to get to Denver this year, let alone to buy anything.

I would also like to ask your permission to edit the Mindat photo of the Mimetite to say that it is now in my collection and mention that the colours go with increasing phosphorous content. There is also an unknown on the piece that Bart Cannon couldn’t identify. When I get my act together I’m going to follow this up and see if the British Museum has any idea of what it might be or if they want to analyse it any further.

Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
hello rob, thanks for your e mail...please write the text of the new additions for the mimetite and i will add it....also, as soon as the deal is closed, i shall relate same to you...I am expecting it today possibly...cheers, joe

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 12:14 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Mimetite & Pyromorphite

Hi Joe,
I’ll be very happily surprised if you can close it today. Thanks and good luck!!!

As a manager at Mindat I can edit any photo, but peoples’ sensitivities being what they are I always ask permission. Currently the caption reads:

Dry Gill Mine, Caldbeck Fells, North and Western Region (Cumberland), Cumbria, England, UK
72 x 43 x 29 mm. Ex: Martin Zinn Collection. Crystal-Odyssey specimen. [email protected]


I would emend it to read:

Dry Gill Mine, Caldbeck Fells, North and Western Region (Cumberland), Cumbria, England, UK
72 x 43 x 29 mm. Ex: Martin Zinn Collection. Crystal-Odyssey specimen. [email protected]
The mimetite ranges through red, yellow and green with increasing phosphorus content (Bart Cannon analysis) (now in RWMW collection)

I just thought the phosphorus and where it now is ought to be mentioned. I left off the Hidalgoite , Cornadite and the unknown that Bart found. I might return to it if anything ever comes of the unknown.
Cheers,
Rob

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 12:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
oh, okay...please go ahead and change it...its fine..cheers, joe

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 1:15 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Done. When the little flag at the bottom notified me that your last email arrived, I misread the first few words and jumped to the conclusion that your deal was done!!!
I also voted for it to be photo of the day, but your parent photo is a close up rather than the better one looking downward on the whole piece and the caption change didn’t seem to be on the child photos. No worries, the info is there. You really do take good photos. Cheers, Rob

Joe’s Mindat Woes and a Possible Conflict

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: September-02-08 1:23 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Hi, that brings up an excellent point...I am definately
off the " photo of the day" list...i never get chosen, and lavinsky is daily...I am convinced its political.....am I right? J

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-02-08 1:24 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
shall i change it??

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:rwmw@telus.net]
Sent: September-02-08 1:56 PM
To: 'gemcrystals@aol.com'
Subject: RE: Mimetite & Pyromorphite
Sure, change it if you wish. Personally I feel that an overall photo is the better parent for a macro specimen. I was only concerned with adding the new info. You have done an excellent job of documenting the piece.

I haven’t raised any questions on the behind the scenes “Management Board” at Mindat and I’ve not been involved in the “photo of the day”. However, I do know that eyebrows have been raised about your (and others) use of the Mindat photo gallery to advertise specimens for sale. Mindat does its best to remain non commercial in a commercial world. Initially Jolyon put in the web link on the photos for collectors who had their own websites, but Mindat has far outgrown expectations and now there are far more dealer’s links on the photos than to collector’s websites. Personally I find the links useful and have said so. I don’t know if buying advertising at Mindat would grease the slopes, but Jolyon is so principled that I doubt it. Amusingly Rob Lavinsky asked me the same question last spring and the result of my enquiry was that there had been a dust up with him that had been satisfactorily resolved. Once I get the $7200. I’ll be more than happy to raise the issue and give you the results.
Cheers,
Rob

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-02-08 2:06 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: sort of cute....
I am not quite sure why anyone would take issue with my listings...they are so benign....notice i use no descriptions such as the disgusting flowery bullshit that ZZZZ uses....now that is exploitative....

Joe does like Pyros

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-02-08 1:45 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: sort of cute....
http://www.mindat.org/photo-182681.html

In a message dated 9/2/2008 4:59:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
YES!!! This one still has its lustre, but sadly too much damage and is too small. If we could only restore the lustre and damage on that first piece.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-02-08 2:03 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: sort of cute....
ha ha ha...if i had that ability, i would not waste time with minerals!!...this pyro cost me $ 35.00

The next post got me excited about Joe's big deal!!! Sadly it just made for uglier moments

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-03-08 1:53 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: done !!!
http://www.mindat.org/photo-109699.html

In a message dated 9/3/2008 5:14:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Great News!!! Please wire $7200. as quick as possible.
Thanks so much
Rob

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-03-08 2:16 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: done !!!
no, not that unfortunately....i meant changing the pic......the deal is still peculating, but i am optimistic...sorr, should have been more specific..joe

In a message dated 9/4/2008 2:14:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Thanks for the clarification. You should be aware that raising false hopes in creditors just makes them angry. So does the patronizing statement: “just wait in line” with no suggestion of when the debt can be repaid. Rob

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-04-08 11:35 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: done !!!
Rob, The creditor you refer to being you....why go off in the direction of " false hopes? you have no reason to think that. I am telling you, in good faith, that I am working towards completing a deal that will pay you in full....the " wait in line" was mentioned in the throes of a bad period in our communications, which, hopefully is in the past...jaf

Joe virtually refuses to pay his debts!!!

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-04-08 11:59 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: here we go again
also rob, please do not refer to yourself as a creditor....you are NOT a creditor...you are a client who is requesting a refund...and I can tell you that under virtually every other circumstance, I would have refused it, as being unjustifiable...to date, I see none of the imperfections that you referred to, nor has two other very exacting mineral dealers I have shown the specimen to. Compounding the situation, was your accusatory episode about the mimetite....totally uncalled for...and while we are on the subject of demeaning....your tone throughout that episode was so.....You distinguish yourself as the one and only client in my 30 years of selling minerals that has accused me of falsifying a locality and label history....having preferred the testimony of a mineral dealer known to be very forgetful....I became the violator...so, all things aside, I had believed we were starting fresh with good intentions on both ends....I hope I am correct , but this mornings e mail indicates we are right back to being adversaries...Please tell me if I am wrong...jaf

Now Joe Thinks the Mimetite is so good I should forget about the $7200.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-04-08 12:03 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: done !!!
did you happen to read Paul de Bondt's comment on mindat about the mimetite? I still do not think you understand the significance of this specimen....you should be thankful, instead of
"righteously indignant"

In a message dated 9/4/2008 3:29:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Yes I read it and will reply soon. I do understand the significance of the Mimetite, which is why I kept it when there was no provenance and I am thankful for it. What I am righteously indignant about is the missing $7200.

Joe has the $7200.!!!

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-04-08 12:35 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: done !!!
there is no " missing" $ 7200.00.......

After all this weaselling I finally posted my complaint to the Mindat Management

"Rob Woodside [ PM ]
Joe Freilich
04, September 2008 07:37PM Registered: 3 years ago
Posts: 894

Has any one had any experience with Joe Freilich? The few reports I have heard are not good. Trying to avoid a lot of he said, she said, here are the simple facts of my problem that I can back up with emails and Fed Ex receipts. Last spring I asked him about a Mimetite and a Pyromorphite. I hesitated about the pyro but Joe convinced me to get it. Since this was my first dealing with him, his request for wiring the money first seemed reasonable. I wired him $12,000.00 ($4800. for the Mimetite and $7200. for the pyro). They arrived quickly. The mimetite was fine, though there turned out to be no labels (see towards bottom of posting at http://www.mindat.org/mesg-15-107213.html ). The promorphite on the other hand had no lustre and two sorts of damage (as I had suspected from the photos, but Joe called them xl faces!!!). The damage was minor, but with a 10x loupe you could see that some dings had lustre and others were matte like the rest of the piece. From this I concluded the piece had been acid dipped to clean it up, losing its lustre, and then had suffered the lustrous dings. I didn't explain this, I merely told Joe that I thought it too damaged and I couldn't fall in love with it. So I immediately returned it and asked for a refund. Joe said he was updating his site and rather than get a refund, I should check out the new listings. I waited a few weeks for this and when they finally appeared there was nothing I wanted, to Joe's incredulity. By the end of June I wanted my money back and Joe asked if he could do it in two payments with a couple of checks in several weeks. I was surprised, but said OK. I then went to Denver during July and when I got back there was nothing fron Joe. In Denver I asked about Joe and one dealer said he'd need some aspirins before such a conversation. The reports about Joe were universally bad and everyone I talked to about this was quite sympathetic. So when I got back I asked Joe to please wire me the money. The upshot is that Joe is merely putting me off and goading me. Apparently Joe patrols Mindat looking for newbies. With his website linked to his mindat photos people can easily buy from him, as I did. If people are happy with what they pay for, there are no problems. Perhaps I should have asked him for some quartz or calcite instead of cash to at least recover some value, but until now I was hoping to get the cash. I'm pretty well convinced that that is impossible. Personally I'd be happy to Ban him and his photos from Mindat and I wonder what others think. See you all in Denver."

So now we try some fence mending:

In a message dated 9/8/2008 1:15:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Hi Joe,
For the last few days I been trying to sort out why I have been so upset and obviously caused you some upset as well. For that I am sorry. What was driving me nuts was that as the stocks have been falling so has my availability of cash for minerals. The reason why I wanted none of your fine minerals was that I suspected that I would find things I wanted more badly when I went to Denver in July. That was true, but I told myself that I’d get the cash for the Denver show in September. I really went squirrely when I saw that was not happening. I’m leaving for Denver in the next few hours would propose that we settle this thing to both our satisfactions after Denver with a selection of specimens from your list comparable in value to the Pyromorphite. How does that sound?
Cheers,
Rob

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: September-09-08 6:59 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Fresh Start?
hello rob, that's would be great...again, i found myself in the hospital getting my stomach pumped yesterday...some sort of wicked drug interaction...i am better now, but weakened by the experience..looking forward to hearing from you....Joe

The Saga Of Ernie Schlicter’s Legrandite
A dealer who gives one third discounts had offered it for $6500. Joe offers it for $12000.


From: Rob Woodside [mailto:rwmw@telus.net]
Sent: October-01-08 11:56 AM
To: 'gemcrystals@aol.com'
Subject: RE: Fresh Start?
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your kind reply. I’m sorry to hear of the problem with your meds. The drugs are great if they work as advertised, but together they sure can give wicked interactions. I hope things are sorted out now and that you have fully recovered.

Denver was a blast. I hadn’t been for more than a dozen years and it was great to find old friends and meet new ones with whom I had been corresponding but hadn’t yet met. I guess your hospital stay precluded your attendance. I liked Denver very much as there was formerly lots of time to see every thing and every one. Now it is the size of Tucson a decade ago and there is not enough time to do anything completely!!!

I see you have Ernie Schlicter’s Legrandite on offer. I visited Ernie nearly 20 years ago and still like the specimen. What is your best price on it?

All the best.
Cheers,
Rob

Some one, perhaps Joe, bought Ernie's Legrandite for $4333.33 or less and now Joe will let me have it for only $11.200.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-01-08 12:01 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Fresh Start?
hello friend...thanks for your good wishes...i have the legrandite out for $12000.00, but with your credit of $7200.00. we can work something out so that the additional would not be $5000.....I will try to make it as less as i am able based on my direct cost. Its a wonderful specimen...some additional clean up work was done on it, and a custom base was added as well....joe

From: "Rob Woodside"
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 14:26:03 -0700
To:
Subject: RE: Fresh Start?
Hi Joe,
Great! That’s what I was hoping. How much more do you need?
Cheers,
Rob

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-01-08 2:52 PM
To: Rob Woodside
Subject: Re: Fresh Start?
Hi. $3500 plus a $500 credit toward any future purch as a good will gesture j
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

I misread this last email. Joe wants $3500. in addition to the $7200. for the lagrandite. He also wants another $500. that I can apply to future purchases from Joe. What a guy!!!

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:rwmw@telus.net]
Sent: October-01-08 3:12 PM
To: 'gemcrystals@aol.com'
Subject: RE: Fresh Start?
Hi Joe,
That’s tight, but I can do it. Thank you very much for the $500 future credit. I know it will come in handy.
Since I’m retired now, Please send it to my home address and please require a signature on delivery. (A parcel once disappeared from my doorstep)”...
“Thanks so much,
Cheers,
Rob

Joe Can No Longer Send Minerals On Approval!!!

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-01-08 7:52 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: bank wire info...may be new for you??
hello rob, wish i could but my life has become much more difficult since we last did business.....my wifes attorney's now require a whole rig a ma role every time i sell something, or even create a consignment....since the minerals are jointly owned property....each time i send out a specimen, I must post a bond with the attorney for the amount of the sale price...EVEN WITH CONSIGNMENTS......talk about a lack of trust...
Given this new rub, what I can suggest is the following. Send me a cashiers check for the amount, and I will not deposit it...until you accept the specimen..if you do not, I will return the check, as the specimen is returned...you have my guarantee that this is the way it will be handled...unless I present the check to my attorney...no go....I have had fist fights about this already......
Hope we can make this work...Joe

In a message dated 10/1/2008 7:58:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Thank you very much . I’ll send the cash when the piece arrives. Rob

Joe wants to avoid a felony so he can't send minerals on approval!!!!

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-02-08 10:50 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: bank wire info...may be new for you??

a felony in new york state......

In a message dated 10/2/2008 1:34:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Joe, just put it in a box and send it. There’s no way her lawyer will catch a missing piece and it will be resolved in probably less than a week.
Cheers,
Rob

From: Rob Woodside [mailto:rwmw@telus.net]
Sent: October-03-08 10:41 AM
To: 'gemcrystals@aol.com'
Subject: RE: bank wire info...may be new for you??
Hi Joe,
These lawyers are killing your business. It is not a CONSIGNMENT when you pay for it up front. I’m surprised the Lawyers don’t know that. Why can’t you use remaining specimens to post a bond? Much of this business is done on consignment and that is now off limits to you. How will you survive?
Cheers,
Rob

Joe has mucked with Ernie's Legrandite since another dealer was offering it

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-06-08 11:03 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: bank wire info...may be new for you??
hello Rob, Please. look at the pics carefully, and if there is something that bothers you, lets not ship the piece.....if it meets your approval, i will need your address and the desired shipper...thanks, Joe
http://www.freilichminerals.com/?page=shop/flypage&product_id=535&keyword=legrandite&searchby=author&offset=0&fs=1&CLSN_2683=12233161482683adbe93cf6779fdf46a

In a message dated 10/7/2008 5:00:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Hi Joe,
Thanks for the extra photos. There seems to be more damage than I remember. My memory for specimens isn’t that great, especially after nearly 20 years. I’ll email you again in a few days. Hope all is well.
cheers,
Rob

By this time it was clear I wasn’t getting any kind of refund and I didn’t know what to do. However, Joe is keen to send me stuff if I just send him more cash.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-21-08 8:15 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: misc
hello rob, very impressive information on the supergene..learned a lot tonight!! Thanks for that posting..now, getting back to our issue....what else can we decide upon?...I have added quite a few new rocks and will be continuing for the next week, so stay tuned..Jaf

Finally Joe’s last emails are fittingly about Extra Terrestrials that he is keen on.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-23-08 2:35 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: misc
hello rob, Please do not think me weird in this questions purpose....do you believe we have been and are being visited by extraterrestrials?..Need a scientists opinion...J

In a message dated 10/23/2008 6:10:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
No. Current estimates of the age of the universe indicates we may be among the first. The searches are garbage. Why should extra terrestrials use electromagnetic radiation, a technology we have had for only a hundred years? Look what we have done to other species and be thankful we are protected by distances we can only dream of travelling.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-23-08 3:13 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: misc
interesting...is that the predominant opinion among your scholarly associates?..have you heard of the book called the " Divine Matrix"

In a message dated 10/23/2008 6:51:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rwmw@telus.net writes:
Not heard of book. Majority now feel searches useless.

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: October-23-08 4:06 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: misc
ROB, i AM SURE YOU HAVE LOTS TO READ THAT WOULD SUPERCEDE THIS, BUT I WOULD LOVE TO DISCUSS THIS WITH YOU ONE DAY...JAF






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Comments

AS WE SPEAK I " WAS" MAKING ARRANGEMENTS FOR PAYMENT,AS I HAVE INDICATED...THEN THIS TIRADE COMES IN AGAIN, OPENING UP THE ISSUE ONCE AGAIN, ...YOU ARE REALLY NOT THINKING OF YOUR OWN BEST INTERESTS.....I WOULD DOUBT ANYONE IS INTERESTED IN MAKING A LIFE STUDY OF YOUR ISSUE....I CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE THE PATIENCE TO READ IT ALL....I GUESS WHAT YOU WANT ME TO DO IS TO STOP MAKING PAYMENT ARRANGEMENTS ? I WILL DO SO IF THIS AND YOUR OTHER IMMATURE, SLANDEROUS REPORTS DO NOT CEASE.....JAF

Joseph Freilich
6th Jun 2009 4:42pm
Thanks for the update, Rob. However, I did not get a sense from your update whether or not you were satisfied with the outcomes so far -- please elaborate.

Much appreciated!

Jim Houran
16th Aug 2009 1:43pm

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