PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! I think it's time to make a few things clear about how requests for identification help should be answered. There have been, in my mind, some pretty poor comments and suggestions made in this forum, and I've heard some negative feedback at Tucson from people unhappy with the quality of feedback given here in identification requests. A suggestion was given to change this topic to "Ask the Experts" and ONLY to allow pre-vetted "experts" (however that is to be defined) to answer questions. Now, I don't think all the criticism is fair, and I don't think at the moment that an experts-only system is right. But, unless things improve then it may have to go this way in the future. The main criticism is ill-informed comments. And especially comments that are made with an air of certainty when the answer is either wrong or impossible to be sure about. PLEASE REMEMBER A request for assistance is NOT a game. You DO NOT have to make a guess about what you think the specimen is. If you are going to answer then ideally you want to be able to explain your answers, eg. "I think this is plumbogummite because of the relationship with mimetite and the similarity to material from both China and Rougton Gill." or better still "I've been collecting at this site several times, and similar specimens have been analysed as plumbogummite" and NOT just "It's plumbogummite" Don't forget it's very difficult to tell what a mineral is from just a photo. Please request the uploader provides more information, and I'm happy for you to make INFORMED guesses as to what a specimen is, as long as you make it clear that it's a guess and not a random stab in the dark. But it's probably best to wait for other people to reply first before suggesting a mineral name unless you are at least 80% certain what the specimen is. http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217640#msg-217640 Sun, 26 May 2013 09:10:57 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252238#msg-252238 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252238#msg-252238

-Stephan]]> Stephan Segedy Identity Help Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:46:32 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252214#msg-252214 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252214#msg-252214
Mike]]> D Mike Reinke Identity Help Tue, 14 Feb 2012 04:26:51 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252208#msg-252208 Help identifying http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252208#msg-252208 Tricia Frame Identity Help Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:32:03 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252207#msg-252207 help identifing! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,252207#msg-252207 Tricia Frame Identity Help Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:18:49 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,225856#msg-225856 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,225856#msg-225856
One of the appearances of these photos was in another thread asking for an identification of totally unrelated material. That is rude and is called "hijacking a thread". Please try not to do this. It is confusing.

As others have tried to tell you, these message boards are supposed to be free of advertising. Please buy an ad from Jolyon (he needs the money) as all the other dealers must do.]]> Rob Woodside Identity Help Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:19:16 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,225853#msg-225853 what this mineral is. http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,225853#msg-225853



Best Regards
Sajjad Shakir
]]> Minerals Miner Identity Help Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:04:42 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223376#msg-223376 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223376#msg-223376
Of course I have now dug a bit deeper and found the Minsocam.org mineral identification key, which was also just the sort of thing I was talking about. It might be worth linking to this from the Mindat search engine (on the intro page - there is plenty of space), as it explains what each of the properties is and how to measure them.

Greg]]> Greg Samways Identity Help Wed, 11 May 2011 16:25:27 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223371#msg-223371 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223371#msg-223371
Thanks for the pointer to the mineral search engine - its very good!

However, even if I put in a wide range of characteristics, including such things as lustre and cleavage (which the uninitiated probably don't understand), I still get a results list of of several pages of minerals!

Perhaps a category of "Known Associates" might also help?

So I thought I would test the system by looking up the properties of what I think it is, then seeing if the search engine finds it. But of course the mineral I am looking at is "allegedly" fuchsite, which doesn't have a separate listing, because it is just a weird form of muscovite. However, the one picture of fuchsite on Mindat does look very much like the stuff I have picked up, and it apparently came from the same place, so I am guessing . . . .

Thanks for you help . . .

Greg]]> Greg Samways Identity Help Wed, 11 May 2011 15:57:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223367#msg-223367 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223367#msg-223367 Kelly Nash Identity Help Wed, 11 May 2011 14:52:45 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223351#msg-223351 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223351#msg-223351
I have read most of the thread with interest, and here is my Euros worth!

I have been aprofessional geologist for more than 20 years, mainly in the petroleum industry, but only recently have I started seriously collecting fossils and minerals. So I am a Newbie and an Expert (or Ex - Spurt?).

In recent years I have focussed on teaching professional courses on oil exploration and production geology, petrophysics, geophysics and so on. When giving these courses the students always assume that I am the "Expert", but I do not know everything. Who does? What I do have vast experience of is researching things, looking things up, finding the answers etc. So what I tell the students is that I will not always be able to tell them the answers, but I can always help them ask better questions!

I think that is what the "experienced" people should do: offer guidance in the ID process, according to how they would approach the ID process.

It also occurs to me that Mindat.org has a huge, systematically compiled database of mineral properties and localities. Would it be possible to build an advanced search engine to guide ID enquiries, i.e an "Expert" system. If the enquirer puts in, for example: the colour, the streak, the locality, associated minerals etc, then the expert system could pull up a short list on the fly . . . . . That would be more fun than form filling, and could lead to more systematic documentation of minerals in the database as well. It could even flag up some possibilities that the "experts" had not consdired. Real humans could then be asked to comment on the findings, and suggest further refinements to the serach or recommend analyses.

I am thinking along the lines of botanical keys: What colour is it? how many petals? pinnate or lobate leaves? etc.

Doctors are now having to do this sort of thing with diagnoses, because the medical profession has finally acknowledged that these "experts" don't know it all either.

It should be much easier with minerals . . . . . .

wadyareckon?

Greg]]> Greg Samways Identity Help Wed, 11 May 2011 12:01:22 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223043#msg-223043 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,223043#msg-223043
To just state what you think it is, doesn't help anyone and to bag out someone without an explanation as to why they are wrong, is just rude!

I've stood among a circle of geologists all arguing over the identification and origin of a sample, each with their own "expert " opinion when the sample in question was cracked and it opened up to reveal that it was artificial and had been planted at the spot for exactly that reason.

Let the people have their say. Listen to their advice and if you disagree with an identification, give a reason.]]> Trevor Dart Identity Help Sun, 08 May 2011 23:12:38 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,219713#msg-219713 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,219713#msg-219713
I appreciate the translation problem because for many years I have done a lot of translation of scientific communications from French to English. It is not only machine translation that is the problem! Even before such techniques were common, I often went into alternating fits of laughter and rage looking through translations provided (at considerable expense) by commercial enterprises... The crux of the matter is that if you don't understand the subject, you can't provide a sensible translation. I could only translate papers in my fields of biological and chemical science, and I often had to spend days with the authors, sometimes assisting with lab experiments, before I could really translate their terms accurately.

So yes, questions are often poorly formulated due to language barriers. It might be an idea for those who have problems with English to append the same text in their own language. Mindat has participants from all over the world, and some might be able to help to 'clean up' the translated text...

I have had very useful comments from various people to my queries, and I thank everyone for their help and patience - and also Jolyon for providing the support and moderation.

Cheers

Tim]]> Timothy Greenland Identity Help Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:21:19 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,219712#msg-219712 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,219712#msg-219712
I also would like to see a Mindat Rock database :-)]]> Ezekiel Hughes Identity Help Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:02:47 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,218021#msg-218021 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,218021#msg-218021 Alfredo Petrov Identity Help Thu, 24 Mar 2011 12:09:06 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,218006#msg-218006 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,218006#msg-218006
Translators work fairly well with some languages but not with others. On a volcano blog, during the last Merapi eruption, we took to calling it giggle translate. The same was true trying to translate Icelandic during the eruption last year. Even with the more accurate translations, enough meaning could get lost so as to give problems to someone not familiar with the terminology we use.]]> Douglas Merson Identity Help Thu, 24 Mar 2011 04:49:23 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217909#msg-217909 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217909#msg-217909 Matthew Barrand Identity Help Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:15:01 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217879#msg-217879 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217879#msg-217879
"Important! All mineral photos must have a scale and/or specimen dimensions included in the description. If you have uploaded a mineral photo, are you sure you have entered this information here? If not, click CANCEL and you can edit this form and resubmit. Click OK if you know you have entered the correct information."

So the one for ID help could include the basic informations like:

"Does your photograph show a sharp image of the specimen?
Where did you find it?
Are there any more details you can see?"

And maybe include a link to a page that shows how to determine the basic informations like hardness, streak etc.

Cheers,
Stefan]]> Stefan Koch Identity Help Wed, 23 Mar 2011 08:38:10 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217859#msg-217859 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217859#msg-217859
I should of read the entire thread before posting the paragraph above. That being said, I do believe even if none of the questions on the form were required to post for identity help (so as not to discourage anyone) the list of questions on the form would get people thinking about the characteristics that help in identifying minerals.]]> Richard Felicioni Identity Help Wed, 23 Mar 2011 03:18:50 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217854#msg-217854 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217854#msg-217854 -------------------------------------------------------
> I'm thankful for everyone in replying to this
> thread. I wanted this to be seen as a point for
> discussion rather than a set of rules to be given
> out from above, and I value all your
> contributions!


Exactly what mods and admin. should do on their forums. I wish I would see more of this in other forums I frequent. Well done!]]> Jason Barrett Identity Help Wed, 23 Mar 2011 02:16:46 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217845#msg-217845 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217845#msg-217845
Now for my one pence worth...

I suggest leaving the system the way it is; no "experts" panel, no lengthy forms to fill out, certainly nothing that would turn away potential new users (and/or donors) to Mindat. I do agree that the single word ID of a mineral may not be the best method, but for some replies this is really all that is required. For some of the lesser known minerals or minerals that may look similiar, a more lengthy discussion is necessary and indeed should be required. For me, unless it's something from the Great Lakes area which is an area I feel very comfortable with, or something very obvious, I will read the ID posts but will not respond because I don't want to give false information.

As far as poor photos: one thing to always keep in mind is that we are not PhotoDat. I am assuming we are not in the business to educate every person how to take a photo. Also, not everyone is Jeff Scovil when it comes to photography; certainly we can't expect every photo submission that comes to Mindat for ID to be great or even good. Mineral ID is tough from a photo no matter the quality, no one can disagree with that.

Ok, I'll throw in some extra change for a longer than expected message :)-D]]> Paul Brandes Identity Help Wed, 23 Mar 2011 01:13:03 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217828#msg-217828 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217828#msg-217828 rock type definitions and descriptions on Mindat - then ID Messageboard answers could just be linked to the appropriate page.]]> Alfredo Petrov Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 23:37:03 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217823#msg-217823 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217823#msg-217823 Rob Woodside Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:58:48 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217820#msg-217820 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217820#msg-217820
An area for photo information about what we want to see in an image. Perhaps this could be brief like well lighted in natural sunlight and in focus and close ups as necessary with a link for a more detailed information about what we would need in an image.

An area for where the specimens was from if they know and where they got it.

If the thing they are uploading is a rock, a link to a brief description about what a rock is and how they should not expect anything more than just a rough estimate of what rock type it is.

A section for physical tests they should run on the specimen if appropriate.

A place where they tell us what it is they want to know.

What else?]]> Rock Currier Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:48:54 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217818#msg-217818 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217818#msg-217818
Here is a recent real world example of an identity request:
[www.mindat.org]

In this case the pictures are good, but the location was not given in the request.

How do you rate Mindat's response in this case. What could we have done better?

-Dean Allum]]> Dean Allum Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:46:33 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217812#msg-217812 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217812#msg-217812 -------------------------------------------------------
> Roger, if we are enticing curious people into a
> serious interest in minerals, a form with stuff
> like hardness and streak would seem daunting and
> confusing,

Rob,
not that i disagree but the simple presence of this form (which would just show up before entering a post in this forum) would MAYBE encouraging people to think a bit more BEFORE posting. Even if they can´t fill the form because they don´t know such shice (ok this is denglish B)- S**t is the 4 letter word in english) ) as streak or hardness ... but maybe they can fill in colour, weight (light, heavy etc), odour, lustre etc etc - it would be useful. And if they can´t fill ANY field in the form so let it be. But i agree with Rock that then a message may appear that the question MAY be ignored because of lack of info. So to offer the questioners an option to provide some standartized info it would help them and the responders.

My meanwhile 7 cents ;)

cheers
Roger]]> Roger Lang Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:30:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217808#msg-217808 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217808#msg-217808 Rock Currier Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:17:20 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217804#msg-217804 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217804#msg-217804
In the ID threads that I've followed or helped with, there is usually patience and sincere effort when Mindat regulars try to help collectors with their questions. Sometimes everybody jumps in at once (when the ID or locality is obvious), but I've rarely witnessed bickering among the "experts". Some of the unknowns may be "road fill" or the photos fuzzy, but the amateurs are making an effort to reach out to us. A little advice and asking for better photos or more information will often encourage them to do better. The process seems to work pretty good most of the time.

As Donald noted, none of us is an expert on all minerals from all localities, but even if we are expert on just one locality - or fairly knowledgable about a number of places - we all have useful bits to contribute when the need arises. :)-D

Woody Thompson]]> Woody Thompson Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:06:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217802#msg-217802 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217802#msg-217802
Although the current system has warts, I'm not sure it is broken and needs fixing. I'm really impressed by the people who have stepped forward to share their knowledge on the identity board and have taught me a lot. I have even made some new friends.]]> Rob Woodside Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:45:16 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217795#msg-217795 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217795#msg-217795
I ´d like to come back to Rolf Brandts idea of an online form for ID questions which may include some critical things like streak, hardness etc. Even if it can´t be done (small xls, etc) the sheer view of such a list which should be mandatory to fill (an option in a dropdown field with "not possible" or "not tested" would be necessary of course) may bring people to think about first checking the properties of their rock before trusting that the experts will read from the crystall ball (blurry photo). I would support this. A lot of unexperienced people simply have no clue what properties of minerals are diagnostic .. so they ask "what is it" and post a picture. If we could manage it that some basics will be provided by the uploaders a lot of guessing and time consuming asking would be obsolete.

I think we have reached

my 6 cents

now

BTW the short "i agree" message is very useful IMHO!

cheers
Roger]]> Roger Lang Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:45:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217788#msg-217788 Re: PLEASE READ before answering requests for help! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,217640,217788#msg-217788
My 2.5 cents worth (I am a broke mineral dealer, I spend it all on minerals) ;-).]]> Donald Slater Identity Help Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:40:18 +0000