I have always suspected that the reverse-skeletal galenas we have been seeing from Madan, Bulgaria had been manufactured by "sandblasting" existing specimens. I expected to see only an initial few, but now they seem to be at every show. Other opinions? http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,157736#msg-157736 Mon, 20 May 2013 16:42:11 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219186#msg-219186 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219186#msg-219186
Agree with Thomasz. These features were also found at the Burgin Mine in Eureka, Utah back in the 60's and 70's. They just never received widespread distribution. We also found very nice small floater spinel law twins of galena, highly lustrous and mostly flattened with very smooth sides.

Our geology staff kept a particularly nice one in the display cabinet, with a tobacco can next to it punched full of small 'breathing holes.' When asked how the holes were formed, the response was 'plumbus voracious', the notorious lead worm. Upon opening the can a small fake animal popped out. It was the head of a toothbrush, with stained bristles, and two eyes painted on the rounded off piece of handle left on the head of the brush. There would be a longish pause, then a smile and a laugh as the joke played out.]]> Jim Robison Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 02 Apr 2011 20:09:10 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219177#msg-219177 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219177#msg-219177 this are certainly natural etchings. It have to be told that etching of galena and also etching of skeletal growing galenas is very, very common in Madan area. Problem is only with one kind of man-made gales - kind of hollow cubes as illustrated here: [www.mindat.org] and [www.mindat.org]
Tomek]]> Tomasz Praszkier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 02 Apr 2011 18:21:38 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219174#msg-219174 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,219174#msg-219174 [www.mindat.org]
[www.mindat.org]

The small cavities in the galena are definitely not man-made as illustrated by the undercut in one cavity that was exposed when the galena crystal cleaved.

These small cavities are the precursor to more elaborate dissolution that would lead to natural skeletal galena crystals. I do not doubt the man-made conclusion for the large skeletal cubes. But clearly there is a natural process working here.]]> John Betts Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 02 Apr 2011 17:22:06 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,209020#msg-209020 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,209020#msg-209020 Rob Woodside Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:29:37 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,209017#msg-209017 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,209017#msg-209017 locality provenance, only with their natural origin. I would have liked to see matrix, in order to check the reality of the locality attribution. Their natural origin doesn't worry me nearly as much as those galena frames did, as we already know that Nature herself makes plenty of similar silver wires.]]> Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:18:59 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208490#msg-208490 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208490#msg-208490
What is the composition of honest Himmelfurst Ag? There are localities that do produce near 100% Ag wires. In addition, the process used to grow the Imiter fakes and purportedly the Himmelfurst fakes does occur in nature at some localities that produce these stringy wires thickened at the base. A decade or so ago these Himmelfurst wires were selling for obscene amounts. Then with the controversy they disappeared from the market. Now they are making an occasional return at somewhat reduced prices, but with no comment about authenticity. I understand there was a problem with the provenance of the Himmelfurst wires that also needed addressing before accepting them as real specimens. When nature uses the same method as fakers, provenance is crucial.]]> Rob Woodside Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 03 Jan 2011 01:20:30 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208425#msg-208425 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208425#msg-208425
The Himmelsfurst silvers?

With a 99.99% purity silver content, these have to be fake.

Lawyers for angry mineral dealers can contact me via the normal channels, and will receive the normal response :)

Jolyon]]> Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 02 Jan 2011 21:06:20 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208409#msg-208409 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208409#msg-208409 Jorge - I don't think that's necessarily true. For example, the Mindat gallery of galena has a lot of pictures of galena that looks like the hollow fakes we discussed in this thread, but aren't exactly the same. Some are hollowed down only one axis, some aren't even completely hollow, and some just have unusual etching pattens. These pieces look like the fakes, but that doesn't mean they are.

Jessica]]> Jessica and Robert Simonoff Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 02 Jan 2011 19:09:58 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208195#msg-208195 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208195#msg-208195 -------------------------------------------------------
> Once again, it is so simple (probably too simple
> for many): WHAT LOOKS LIKE A FAKE MUST BE A FAKE!
>
> And now, let´s talk about all these "old German"
> wire silvers which appeared out of nowhere during
> the last couple of years.... Absolutely NO lawyers
> comments please....B)B)B)

Probably a lot too much money involved to talk about those.]]> Ian Jones Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:40:26 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208191#msg-208191 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,208191#msg-208191 And now, let´s talk about all these "old German" wire silvers which appeared out of nowhere during the last couple of years.... Absolutely NO lawyers comments please....B)B)B)]]> Jorge Muñoz Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:12:01 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207954#msg-207954 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207954#msg-207954
Thank you very much to a wonderful article and posting the results of your continued investigation. This thread has been quite the captivating discussion, and thanks again to everyone for keeping it alive with each new piece of the puzzle. Tomasz & Jim, thanks for your corroborative stories as well.

I was very hesitant about them previously, but now I am interested in getting one simply to have one of these very clever fakes!]]> Jonathan Woolley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 29 Dec 2010 22:32:20 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207410#msg-207410 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207410#msg-207410
I returned a day or two later to look again........the museum never came by, but the dealer was excited because he had sold a couple specimens to a well known American dealer. Although I really didn't know much about galena or Bulgaria, the lure of finding the "sleeper rock" was too much to pass up.......so purchased a nice one with greenish-yellow sphalerite, chalcopyrite, and quartz.

A couple of months later I was in Dallas for a MAD meeting, where I met Jim and Gail. While we were comparing notes on
recent acquisitions, we talked of our "birdcage" galenas. They told me they had purchased theirs from the American dealer, and how interesting that two of the very few of these now resided in Texas.

The story of the skeletal galenas at that time was that the Bulgarian dealer visited the area, and bought some uncleaned
specimens from local miners. It was only when he was cleaning the minerals that he discovered a few of the hollow cubes, and that the local miners didn't know what they had. He was going to return and see if he could get some more of the uncleaned bulk material.

When questions arose as to the authenticity of the galenas, I had a sinking feeling, because the dealer also sold mineral
preparation equipment.....water guns, clippers, trimmers, etc. I had hoped that these first ones were still authentic, and that maybe only the newer specimens were manufactured.......but if Jim and Gail's "one of the original ten" was faked, then mine probably was too. I guess I need to have a look under a good microscope.

Paul]]> Dr. Paul Bordovsky Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 25 Dec 2010 03:55:17 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207335#msg-207335 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207335#msg-207335
Thanks for sticking with this.

From someone who has spent many years in a mineral prep lab, it was really obvious to me, how these were made.

In fact, I got a lot of grief for showing my simple example of how it is done, so I am glad to see the evidence of glass beads show up in your investigations.

Again, this shows what a wonderful resource we have today, communication through Mindat.

Best Regards,

Ryan]]> Ryan L. Bowling Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:46:46 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207312#msg-207312 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207312#msg-207312
Sorry about your piece Jim... but look on the bright side, as Andrew said, it could even gain value! :-)

I was wondering where these were really made. Obviously the galena is from Bulgaria, but were they "enhanced" by local miners in Bulgaria or by dealers in other countries after they came out of Bulgaria? It could even be some of both - the original galenas were made in Bulgaria, and when dealers saw the high prices the Bulgarian pieces were selling for, they decided to copy the technique. That would at least explain the different types of abrasives used!

thanks for the video, Wayne!

Jessica]]> Jessica and Robert Simonoff Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:44:07 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207310#msg-207310 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207310#msg-207310 Spann's Hoppered Galena's
Best viewed in full screan.

Wayne Corwin]]> Wayne Corwin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 15:29:24 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207290#msg-207290 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207290#msg-207290
I think however that dealers who lost out on this now have sufficient evidence to press for criminal proceedings against those who created/supplied them in the beginning.

Jolyon]]> Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:21:16 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207275#msg-207275 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207275#msg-207275
I remember taking a close look at your Madan Galena's while you were setting up at the East Coast Gem Show in Springfield Ma. for your 53 case display that I was videoing in 2009, I was almost certin at the time that they looked fake, the inside edges looked too rounded to me to be real natural.
But I was also thinking that someone, with alot of time, had done a pritty good job. ;)

Wayne Corwin]]> Wayne Corwin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 07:51:15 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207265#msg-207265 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207265#msg-207265
The perverse part of this episode is that these galena's will likely take on an interesting status amongst the mineral community for ever more even as fakes because of all the discussion that we as a mineral group undertook.

Just think, their value will be in the future, where we may have collectors that specialize in the many faked minerals that have and will appear in the years to come, and the Madan Galena's will always be remembered as one of the leaders in trickery. Who knows, they might get more valuable than the untouched ones due to their "rarity" ...yep, its a mad mad world.

And to everyone, a warm and happy x-mas and new year from a crazy Tasmanian,:)-D

And to all peoples in snowy Europe....field collecting zeolites at the moment is not a good idea..(:P)

Andrew Tuma]]> Andrew Tuma Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 04:55:48 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207260#msg-207260 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207260#msg-207260 As Rob knows from talking to Gail, we have one of the older skeletal galenas that we acquired from a highly reputable dealer in May 2006. (Paid about what it cost to send a young lady to university for a semester!) After reviewing your work, I looked at our catalog...just as Tomek said, came from Ninth September Mine, Madan. As Joe mentioned, I have been in the denial category for a long time. I pulled our piece out of the cabinet and studied it under our stereo microscope up to 45x.
All the characteristics that you described were present...plus one more: the quartz crystals were pitted just like your SEM photos, but only on faces near the etched galena...then I found it. An entire stack of spherical glass beads in a cavity that would not have been self cleaning. Dozens of them! They appear to be much larger than 13 microns. About 6-8 across to equal the width of my fine pick point.
I can only conclude that these have been manufactured for at least the last four years. For kickers, I was told that there were only a handful ever found! (groan) I started getting suspicious when more and more kept appearing. Classic lesson here: caveat emptor!
Great job! Keep it up young lady! (and Dad)
Jim]]> Gail Spann Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 24 Dec 2010 03:48:13 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207238#msg-207238 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207238#msg-207238 Jessica]]> Jessica and Robert Simonoff Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 22:13:38 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207229#msg-207229 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207229#msg-207229
Thank you for the detailed analysis and detective work.

Rob,

I hope so; but don't bet on it. A fellow I know who owns several is still in denial. This thread is like the creature in the movie Alien.

Happy New Year,

Joe]]> Joseph Polityka Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:15:54 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207214#msg-207214 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207214#msg-207214 Rob Woodside Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:11:14 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207204#msg-207204 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207204#msg-207204 Only one dealer bring them to the market (I will not put name here). All other dealers have specimens from him. This dealer told that he bought whole pocket etc. But I know people who work with him, and were "producing" this specimens.
I do not know how many time you visited Madan, but I after tens of trips know that there is only very few people working with specimens and they know immediately about each pocket. Before dealer from far Sofia will buy anything local miners/dealers have all specimens. Some of them have netter ones, other not so good. But at least few crystals you can see in locals houses. But you will never find this galenas from Madan! What is more - this kind of skeletal/hollow galenas are only from 1 mine - 9th September. There is only 3 person working there for specimens (it is closed mine, entering there illegal, some they I will post photos of pockets). I was talking with all them showing photos of specimens - they all told me that this are faked specimens. To find something in this mine you have to go for 20 hours and you have to know "secret" roads. So, it is impossible that dealer from Sofia went there and found this pocket. He also didn't bought it from locals. What is more - each mine have some characteristic specimens. And as I have written before - there are skeletal crystals of galena - but never in this shape.
I work in Madan for many years, and well know all local dealers and majority of miners which collect. What is more I have so good contact with locals that if there is some important pocket I have call the same day.
Concluding: I am 100% sure that this are faked specimens.

Tomek

PS In majority of cases galena is younger than quartz and chlorite, it is very common to have inclusions of "quartz" in galena.]]> Tomasz Praszkier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:54:23 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207200#msg-207200 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207200#msg-207200
[attachment 27556 IMG_6871.JPG]]]> Peter Ward Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:18:25 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207197#msg-207197 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207197#msg-207197
You have done another wonderfull Article ! Congradulations on being able to have use of the SEM at James Madison University ! You have done a verry through job on the specimens that you had access to. I'd love to see many more examined with the SEM !
Maybe some day you or others will finally figure it out.
Maybe some day you or others will finally actually SEE these being mined and still in place ?
Guess time will tell !
Keep up the great work Jess ! ! !
B)
Wayne Corwin]]> Wayne Corwin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:58:37 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207196#msg-207196 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207196#msg-207196 Tomasz - how did you prove that they are all fake??
I completely agree with you on the conclusion Jolyon. obviously some are definitely fake. I'm not sure how it could be proven one way or another for all of the specimens (not saying it can't be done just that I don't know how).
i think that the quartz crystal in that photo is definitely glued. That specimen was one of the ones I looked at with the SEM, and it had the glass balls... i guess the quartz could have been an inclusion in the galena that was exposed as a result of the microabrasion but that doesn't seem too likely (especially because it is not actually touching the galena on the bottom, it is on chlorite, which I would have thought would be completely destroyed by then.)
Jessica]]> Jessica and Robert Simonoff Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:49:00 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207189#msg-207189 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207189#msg-207189
Tomek]]> Tomasz Praszkier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:13:49 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207186#msg-207186 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207186#msg-207186 Paul Brandes Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 15:00:22 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207184#msg-207184 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207184#msg-207184
[www.mindat.org]

I know Jessica says it was placed in acetone overnight, but doesn't it look to you like it's glued on the bottom? There are glues that acetone won't touch.

Jolyon]]> Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:41:07 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207183#msg-207183 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,157736,207183#msg-207183
What I would like to see in addition to this in the future would be:

a) a reference SEM of a fresh Galena surface to compare with the pitted/cratered one

b) an examination of some of the dissolution/odd surface texture features on some of the Dal'negorsk galenas (for example), which are assumed to be natural, but bear some resemblance to the textures seen on the Madan hollow galenas.

Jolyon]]> Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:32:02 +0000