Hello all - I'm new, and I need help, please. I have taken control of a family member's accounts, as she is no longer compos mentis. Among her relatively recent purchases are some items that were purchased through a government auction. The auction used a firm, GLA (Gemological Laboratory of America) located in Los Angeles for appraisal. The GLA appraisals estimate the value of her items at near $200,000, and a close look at her bank account reveals she paid about $1,000 for them. Notably, she has two unbelievably (to me) large sapphires, each over 1,000 carats. I find it incredible that this person would have been savvy enough to make such a purchase, and I'd like a little assistance finding out how I should proceed. A web search of GLA does not leave me with much confidence, so I thought I'd ask some of you veterans for direction. Can someone give me some ideas? Thank you! http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256395#msg-256395 Fri, 24 May 2013 15:57:57 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,290290#msg-290290 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,290290#msg-290290 dcguy Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:02:27 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,278669#msg-278669 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,278669#msg-278669 -------------------------------------------------------

> Supposedly, it was a large emerald surrounded by
> 106 white sapphires.
> In a platinum "plated over sterling silver"
> setting.
> Value, nearly 10K.

Did the wording say something like 'up to 10K'? An actual value of 10 bucks quite properly fits within that description. It's a question of reading what the words say and not imagining what you would like them to mean.

Alarm bells ring already, anyway

To my knowledge silver is never platinum plated for jewellery. Silver *is* frequently Rhodium plated for tarnish resistance. Rhodium is a rare earth metal, commonly extracted from Platinum ore.

In making the ring of silver, the maker voiced his opinion of the stones being mounted. Fit for nice Christmas cracker stuffing.

> 1. It was silver, zero platinum, even plated.

But was quite probably Rhodium plated.

> 2. The "emerald" was an enhanced stone, and with a
> crack to boot.

Emeralds are routinely treated. The effect on value ranges from little/none to severe, depending on the nature and extent of the treatment. That you say the stone 'had a crack in it' is interesting. Almost all Emeralds do have cracks in them, this being the prime reason for their treatment ;-)

Is the stone mainly transparent or is it opaque?

> and the kicker....
> 3. The "white sapphires, of excellent grade..?"
> were CZ..glass!!

A competent jeweller is not going to have had any doubt as to whether he was looking at CZ or glass. So which was it? Again it is trivial to differentiate cut CZ from White Sapphire. OTOH separating White Sapphire from cut glass in perfect condition and in 'pin-head' sized stones is not at all trivial without first dismounting at least one of the stones., Small-size White Sapphires are a cheap stone with virtually no fire or brilliance. Most used now in the jewellery trade are synthetic (but real). Only in larger sizes and cut to emphasise clarity and colourlessness do they become desirable. Frankly, mounted as you describe, one would have a better-looking piece if CZ was used instead to emulate the effect of the melee Diamonds frequently used to support a substantial Ruby, Sapphire or Emerald in relatively important pieces of jewellery.

> Value? less than $100 USD

Without having seen the piece and going just from your description, I would not imagine it could be worth more. But 100 is included in the 'up to 10K' bracket, is it not?

> While I did get a brief and pathetic chuckle from
> it all, it made me realize how consumers are being
> ripped off on a regular basis if they are buying
> jewelry sources with this so-called appraisal
> "validation".

Unfortunately. that does not follow. In buying jewellery as with anything else, one needs to apply shrewdness, common sense and a little knowledge - but these too often somehow manage to be absent. One needs some true appreciation of what one is buying - or leave the purchasing to those who do.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 09 Dec 2012 15:09:28 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,278649#msg-278649 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,278649#msg-278649
Supposedly, it was a large emerald surrounded by 106 white sapphires.
In a platinum "plated over sterling silver" setting.
Value, nearly 10K.

My BFF (and big jewelry fanatic) was in town visiting, wasn't buying the hype, and insisted we take it to a reputable jeweler to confirm its value.

1. It was silver, zero platinum, even plated.
2. The "emerald" was an enhanced stone, and with a crack to boot.
and the kicker....
3. The "white sapphires, of excellent grade..?" were CZ..glass!!

Value? less than $100 USD

While I did get a brief and pathetic chuckle from it all, it made me realize how consumers are being ripped off on a regular basis if they are buying jewelry sources with this so-called appraisal "validation".

Dan R. Lynch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My father is a jeweler of 40 years and we've run
> into GLA gems a few times. In his experience,
> their appraisals tend to be wildly exaggerated and
> far from realistic. Recently, a faceted ruby came
> across his bench that the GLA had appraised at
> $20,000 and the person had also purchased it from
> a government auction. Despite its size (around 45
> carats), it was heavily included and far from gem
> grade. It was re-appraised by my dad and another
> jeweler at about $750. The GLA is not the GIA.]]> NYC Gal Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 09 Dec 2012 02:15:00 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,277389#msg-277389 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,277389#msg-277389 > My father is a jeweler of 40 years and we've run
> into GLA gems a few times. In his experience,
> their appraisals tend to be wildly exaggerated and
> far from realistic. Recently, a faceted ruby came
> across his bench that the GLA had appraised at
> $20,000 and the person had also purchased it from
> a government auction. Despite its size (around 45
> carats), it was heavily included and far from gem
> grade. It was re-appraised by my dad and another
> jeweler at about $750. The GLA is not the GIA.]]> Ariana Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Nov 2012 00:43:29 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262345#msg-262345 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262345#msg-262345
I've recently been chatting to someone who is enthusiastic to buy Emeralds and Rubies in the size range of 1 - 30 Kg (I can't be bothered to write all the noughts for a carat weight), being offered these by a seller close to where he lives. Well, if such things attract him, why not? Provided one knows clearly that one is buying:

-. Items made in an industrial process that can be likened to making house-bricks. The finish is equally cheap.

- Something that can be made in effectively limitless numbers and sizes.

- They can be made in almost any shape or colour you want.

- They have no intrinsic worth and you would be wise to expect never to sell them.

- They are Emeralds and Rubies only is the same sense as Ireland is the Emerald Isle and grape juice concentrate bulked out with water and laced with industrial Ethanol is Ruby Wine.

But to return to your discovery of real gems the value of which has passed unrecognised. It must also be said that even dealers of good experience make bad mistakes from time to time. One of the very few Taaffeites I have handled was discovered (not by me :-( )in a parcel of small rough Spinels, bought from a Sri Lankan dealer for USD 5.00! I also know of a diamond ring of several carats being valued recently for USD 4.5K when its likely auction hammer price is 30K+. In the *right* auction and properly promoted, that is!]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 01 Jun 2012 12:52:57 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262341#msg-262341 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262341#msg-262341 Chester S. Lemanski, Jr. Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 01 Jun 2012 12:13:07 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262313#msg-262313 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,262313#msg-262313
I am in the Antique/Vintage Business, I own a shop here in Tampa FL where every day I am approached by family members who are placing loved ones, parents, aunts, grandparents, into nursing homes and they have no clue or time to figure out what to do with their belongings. I specialize in Vintage Toys but will entertain most items. Honestly, most people come to me and beg me to help empty out their home/condo within a week because the place is being sold and they have no idea what to do with their items. I appraise as much as I possibly can, then we often hire an outside party to appraise the remaining items. This is where we find gems such as the ruby I found, stuck in an envelope, in a shoe, in a box, in a trunk in the bottom of their closet. At first we're not even sure if it's real or out of a gumball machine. But more and more I've found that family members just don't care about the items and want to get out of the "ordeal" and on with their own life ASAP. This is where an auction comes in handy and I find many stones like this being sold for pennies on the dollar.

If you have a few dollars lying around take the chance, but please do your homework first! There are tons of con artist out there preying on situations just like this. I really consider ourselves to be fortunate with this situation. Not only did we luck out with the Ruby but we sold it and were able to quickly reinvest it in Vintage Toys again.

Good Luck, do as much homework as possible and before you bid, set a bottom line and STICK to it! Don't go up by even $5.00!

Andrea's Attic Consignment & Resale
Lutz, FL]]> Andrea's Attic Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 01 Jun 2012 06:07:57 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,259901#msg-259901 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,259901#msg-259901
You don't say what you paid the for stuff or, for your 'ruby bangle' and the 'diamond' pendant, the valuations you have received. In the case of the 'glass-filled Rubies' (worth $200), If one supposes that you paid 150-250 for them, then you would have got what you paid for if not the fantastic bargain you might have been expecting. OTOH, if you paid several thousand, then you may have been defrauded . Which scenario applies in your case?

With regard to JJ's GLA certificate, its wording is that of 'value not to exceed $******. And as Jolyon pointed out, 10 bucks does not exceed that ;-) It's called 'weasel-wording'; realtors (estate agents) and used-car salesmen are expert at it - and so need to be buyers! What was the exact wording on the certificates for your items?]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 05 May 2012 16:07:09 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,259848#msg-259848 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,259848#msg-259848 I recently purchased 4 pieces of Jewelry from This Goverment auction mob, I was also supplied with GLA indentification cards, I have since had all the pieces look at here by my Jeweller who is a Trained Gemnologist. Ruby bangle , Glass filled Rubies GLA valued at 10,000 lucky to be worth $200, .31 carat diamond Pendant not even diamonds they are Moissanite, need I go on. The stuff is rubbish, this Government auction business is a complete scam, I can't believe they can continue to get away with this sort of underhanded dealings. GLA What a Joke !
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you post a picture? Do you have the
> advertisement that said what was to be received?
> The ratio of value to price is a red flag if a
> genuine auction were involved as no businessman
> interested in gems would let such an opportunity
> pass. Note that Gemological Laboratory of America
> is not the same as Gemological Institute of
> America. The Better Business Bureau give
> Gemological Laboratory of America an "A" rating.]]> Deb From Down Under Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 05 May 2012 07:43:44 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257399#msg-257399 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257399#msg-257399
Let me draw an analogy. If a car manufacturer whose business is producing cheap and badly made copies of 1960s-engineered Fiats is permitted to sell its products as 'Mercedes Benz', might that:
- Help them sell the otherwise almost unsaleable in an open market full of better cars?
- Increase their profitability, because buyers have heard of the reputation of Mercedes Benz - even if they have no way of understanding it - and will pay a premium to have the name sitting in their driveway?
- Defraud buyers by selling under a false description?
- Ultimately damage Mercedes Benz's business and the second-hand market in M-B cars?

But here too buyers could see what was being offered and make up their own minds as to whether to buy and what to pay :-)]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 06 Apr 2012 16:52:04 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257384#msg-257384 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257384#msg-257384 >to be described for sale as an Emerald.

I don't see the harm in this. It's clearly a green beryl, it's clearly not gem quality, and it's entirely up to buyers what they are willing to pay for it.

Jolyon]]> Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 06 Apr 2012 13:52:05 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257381#msg-257381 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257381#msg-257381 [www.ebay.co.uk]

According to this Indian seller, this is also lab-certified and has an expected sale value of USD 3-6,000 (well, at least its not 2 million....). The bidding stands presently at c. 60 bucks. This stone is also 'forest green' but seems not completely opaque.

If it does nothing else, this should all support the view that harm was done in allowing any green Beryl to be described for sale as an Emerald. The only gain from this 'anything goes' policy is in the pockets of crooks.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 06 Apr 2012 13:33:48 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257374#msg-257374 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257374#msg-257374 Jolyon & Katya Ralph Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 06 Apr 2012 09:46:00 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257357#msg-257357 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257357#msg-257357
I am putting it on ebay, and do not expect you to bid. ;-)


JJ]]> JJ Bergstrom Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 06 Apr 2012 06:51:10 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257252#msg-257252 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257252#msg-257252
But careful, some tv commercials try to sell coins that are only capped in silver or gold. They make it sound intriguing, but these are basically worthless.]]> Jerry Petryha Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:32:11 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257137#msg-257137 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,257137#msg-257137 Jason Barrett (2) Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 03 Apr 2012 18:40:17 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256628#msg-256628 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256628#msg-256628 Steve Hardinger Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 29 Mar 2012 15:06:20 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256619#msg-256619 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256619#msg-256619
People will pay good money to buy a dream. But, come to sell your dream and you find no one else wants it.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:42:48 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256607#msg-256607 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256607#msg-256607 Rock Currier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:32:11 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256583#msg-256583 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256583#msg-256583
Best, Owen]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 22:09:50 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256566#msg-256566 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256566#msg-256566 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:20:49 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256563#msg-256563 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256563#msg-256563 -------------------------------------------------------
> i agree with everything Owen wrote above (even the
> bit about my generous heart ;-) ), except the part
> about a creeping imprecision in the definition of
> "emerald" when vanadium-coloured beryls were
> accepted as emeralds. As the use of emeralds
> predates the discovery of the element chromium by
> many centuries, it is impossible for "chromium as
> the chromophore" to be part of the definition.
> That was a case of attempted imposition of
> unjustified over-precision by one group of
> producers attempting to protect their market.

:-)

There is, as you say, more than one point of view here (not the place to thrash it out perhaps). If you are attanding the Ste Maie aux Mines exhipition in June, its something that we might enjoy taking further over a bottle or three of Gewurtztraminer :-)

For the time being, please let me add this. You are quite right that lovely, transparent and green stones were traded for centuries as 'Emerald' before science was applied to market regulation starting in the 19th Cent. First chemistry, then mineralogy and finally, in the 20th cent, gemmology, were applied in an attempt to build sensible rules for the useful, honest and consistent description of gem materials - including Emerald.

I don't argue that arbitary varietal division of species has some overwhelming logic to it. But - as I think it did with Emerald - it need not too fiercely overturn what had existed historically in any event and it has helped make the market more transparent and honest. Busting the fence around the Emerald definition has not (IMHO) improved either market transparency or honesty (turning to nod at JJ's pics and GLA certificate). Similar science-based discrimination caused the largest Ruby in the British crown jewels (for some hundreds of years) to be reclassified as a red Spinel.

But, I agree, right is not all on one side in this discussion. The real problem, it seems to me, is the extent to which market sentiment will value a gem with one name so much more highly that the same gem sold under another name.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:53:58 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256562#msg-256562 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256562#msg-256562 David Von Bargen Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:48:55 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256560#msg-256560 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256560#msg-256560 Kelly Nash Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:41:35 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256559#msg-256559 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256559#msg-256559 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 15:33:11 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256556#msg-256556 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256556#msg-256556
For the benefit of JJ who doesn't know about stones, let's set out a few facts.

- Emerald is a variety of the crystalline mineral species called Beryl, with the chemical formula Be₃Al₂Si₆O₁₈ for all varieties.

- In its pure form, Beryl is colourless and this colourless form has the varietal name of Goshenite in the gem trade.

- Other atoms in very small proportions can be trapped in the Beryl crystal lattice and cause the whole to show some weak to strong colour. There are six to eight coloured varieties of Beryl, known respectively at Red Beryl (Bixbite), Aquamarine (light blue/green), Maxixe (dark blue), Emerald and Green Beryl (two types of green Beryl), Heliodor and Yellow Beryl (two shades of yellow Beryl). These are gem trade distinctions and are not all distinctions used by mineralogists. Each colour has a different market value, all else being equal. Goshenite is the cheapest and Emerald is the most expensive variety of Beryl.

- Until the 1990's, only gem quality Beryl that was coloured green by the trapping of Chromium ions in the lattice was called Emerald. All other Beryl coloured green by any other chromophore ion was simply known as Green Beryl. Stones categorised as Green Beryl sell as a heavy discount to those of the same size and general quality that are sold as Emerald.

- In the 1990's large amounts of very good quality green Beryl were discovered in Brazil in particular. This green Beryl was coloured not with Chromium but with Vanadium ions. Market forces drove the GIA to use its clout to obtain gem trade acceptance of Vanadium coloured green Beryl as Emerald. And so it now is, through most of the world. This bust the fence around the Emerald definition and has latterly resulted in a broad - but not yet quite universal acceptance as Emerald any green Beryl of gem quality that is not too yellow or too blue. If you sense imprecision resulting in the definition of what is arguably the most valuable of all gemstones, you'd be right! :-(

- You note that I use the rider 'of gem quality' this means that, apart from being pure green Beryl, the crystal must have beauty, being mainly transparent or (in worst case) translucent. and containing (as a cut stone) no really serious flaws. Again, this is - to a point - a matter for skilled judgement.


Now we can turn to your stone and its certificate.

- Simple gemmological testing for refractive indices, birefringence, optic sign and specific gravity will confirm whether it is reasonably pure Beryl or not. Even with an opaque stone, further and advanced testing should determine the chromophore ion.

- In the case of your stone let's say that it basic-tests out properly as Beryl. It's very unlikely that GLA determined the chromophore. From colour and opacity, I incline call it Green Beryl. Whatever, its a bottom grade stone, just about of saleable quality at any price (think 99.99 as a curiosity if the buyer is not to be ripped off).

- The problem with the GLA appaisal (for insurance purposes only), is probably in the misapplication of the value multiplying factor on grounds size - and category of size - (see earlier post). In terms of quality, GLA has correctly (IMHO) grade the quality of your stone as 'junk status'. The mistake is then to multiply up, firstly by carat weight the $ per ct rate for 'junk' Green Beryl. Junk 1,000 times larger is simply *not* 1,000 times more valuable than the small junk - a problem in the mechanistic application of a formula without application of a critical faculty. This mistake has probably been compounded by the mis-application of the 'size category multiply factor on top.

People who buy junk quality - sorry, commercial grade (meaning sellable) - Green Beryl are those who can't afford a decent Emerald. That's most of the gemstone buying public in this world and is why a lot of commercial grade stuff is shifted in the market. However, most is shifted as small cut stones of somewhere in the range of 1-2 cts. To maximise the cash realisable from this stone it might be best to have it cut up into such smaller stones.

A 'back of your beer-mat' calculation might look something like this. Cut and polish the chunk into 1-2ct 'gems' for jewellery setting and a 1,000 ct bulk might yield you 250-500 such stones, the remalnder ending up as dust (with you might also try to sell to a synthetic Emerald manufacturer - if you could ever make the connection). a mix of 1-2ct stones of bottom-end of commercial grade Green Beryl might sell, wholesale, for an average of five bucks each (on a good day). This would give your stone a realised cash value of around USD 1,250 - 2,500, from which you have to deduct the costs of the lapidiary and selling............

OTOH, you might find some punter who fancies a gamble and would pay USD 1,000 at auction for the single piece - but if it were me, I would not be holding my breath whilst waiting; such don't come along very often. Or keep and use it as a paperweight on your office desk - a great conversation piece.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:50:49 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256555#msg-256555 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256555#msg-256555 Steve Hardinger Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:47:44 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256554#msg-256554 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256554#msg-256554
Alfredo is right, some people like big and there might be people out there willing to pay a little extra for that, however not as much as the prices in the appraisals, they are wildly unrealistic.

Good luck with your efforts.

regards,
stephanie :-)]]> Stephanie Martin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:38:13 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256549#msg-256549 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256549#msg-256549
[www.mineral-forum.com]
[www.gemologyonline.com]]]> Duncan Miller Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 13:38:50 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256547#msg-256547 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,256395,256547#msg-256547 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:42:44 +0000