hi there I saw these recently in Namibia, I saw a few obvious fakes along the roadside stalls but then saw these in a well known shop. any thoughts on if they might be real? Herman. http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258865#msg-258865 Sat, 25 May 2013 09:56:26 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259633#msg-259633 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259633#msg-259633 James McGuire Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 02 May 2012 04:03:01 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259602#msg-259602 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259602#msg-259602
Thank you for editing the picture and removing the name.
If you are ever are back up in Namibia and feel like a mineral related chat - don’t hesitate to contact me.

Kindest regards
Ernst]]> Ernst A. Schnaitmann Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 01 May 2012 18:24:46 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259597#msg-259597 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259597#msg-259597
I firstly want to thank you, for handling the matter as you did, professional.
I am really sorry for not removing the name of the shop in the photo that was a mistake from me.
And for not asking in the shop for the authenticity of the specimens, there all I can say is that normally here in S.A. people owning mineral shops close to me don't have the slightest clue, but still my mistake.
thanks for the explanation on the scepters.
I will remove the name in the photo, hope that will do it?]]> Herman Du Plessis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 01 May 2012 17:00:51 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259357#msg-259357 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,259357#msg-259357
I have a few issues with your post and I hope you will indulge me in sharing my points of view with you.

Firstly I have to state that I am the consulting mineral expert that has been appointed by the business that is mentioned on the specimen label.

That being said I have consulted with the management and employees of the business in question and have been able to determine that:
1) You did ask for permission to photograph the specimens
2) You however did not engage with the employees of the business to question or verify the authenticity of said specimens nor did you subsequently contact the business in question to verify the authenticity of the specimens
3) You did not ask for permission from the business in question to post onto a public site a picture denoting the name of the business as well as its offered goods

Whereas you did not directly state that the specimens on offer were fakes; the wording in your post “but then saw these in a well known shop. any thoughts on if they might be real?” could lead some people to assume that the business in question proliferates in the sale of fake mineral specimens.

I can categorically state that the business in question is held in the highest regard by people in the mineral community that have dealt with this institution.
While I appreciate your interest in regard to the authenticity of these specimens, it is a matter of common courtesy to omit publicly naming a particular business if you are questioning their ethics without any substantial proof as this may result in bringing the business’ name into ill repute.
If you had omitted the name of the business from your photo, this would be a different case entirely.

I sincerely hope that you will carefully consider the consequences of your actions in the future before posting anything onto the public domain.


Now on to a more technical explanation.
The specimens in question are indeed authentic, but it also has to be stated that a very large number of these types of specimens were indeed faked.
Generally these fluorite “scepters” were “modified” by forgers who would use sand paper and other abrading tools to shape and reduce the colorless to light yellow “stalk” of the scepters so that a more pronounced “scepter effect” would be attained.
Also some of the top terminations were reshaped into more “pleasing” forms; additionally most if not all matrix specimens have been implanted.

It is rather easy to identify if one of these specimens has been modified by the use of a strong loupe or microscope as there will be small cut marks which are clearly visible even if they have been sand papered away as they will always leave a smooth area with small indentations and white powdered fluorite which is very difficult to remove from the cracks and impact sites.

As for the name fluorite “scepters” I can advise that this has been the general sales term used for these fluorites.
Please find attached an insert which I am posting here courtesy of John Veevaert from Trinity Mineral Company.

[attachment 38067 scepterfluoritetucson2009.jpg]


Additionally I have the following information from John:

"They're actually not scepters ……. They are the corroded remnants of octahedrons that have been etched away leaving a stalk of fluorite with the residual corner of the original crystal mimicking a scepter. And as a strange coincidence, John White has an article on this exact phenomenon in one of the latest Rocks & Minerals issues. He features USA fluorites that show this structure, similar to the Namibian ones."

Rocks & Minerals January-February 2009
The Odd Fluorite Crystal Points
From the Elmwood Mine, Smith County, Tennessee
by John S. White]]> Ernst A. Schnaitmann Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 28 Apr 2012 09:06:18 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258869#msg-258869 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258869#msg-258869 so they are in the same boat as etched beryl being called scepters?

Herman.]]> Herman Du Plessis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:09:23 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258868#msg-258868 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258868#msg-258868 Tomek]]> Tomasz Praszkier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 23 Apr 2012 19:00:02 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258865#msg-258865 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,258865,258865#msg-258865 I saw these recently in Namibia, I saw a few obvious fakes along the roadside stalls but then saw these in a well known shop.
any thoughts on if they might be real?

Herman.]]> Herman Du Plessis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 23 Apr 2012 18:50:20 +0000