This is one heck of a sleezy marketing ploy! I feel sorry for the people who get tricked into buying stuff like this and thinking it's better because the cheapskate dealer says it's 'Tibetan'- what a load. http://cgi.ebay.com/Herkimer-Diamond-Tibetan-Clear-Quartz-Crystal-Bracelet_W0QQitemZ290012962147QQihZ019QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,42231#msg-42231 Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:43:17 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269684#msg-269684 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269684#msg-269684 Yanick Beaudet Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 29 Aug 2012 05:20:31 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269668#msg-269668 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269668#msg-269668
Yes, I agree that 'New Age' is the bulk market. This does not appeal to you (nor to me) but others who no longer can believe in God but feel the need to believe in *something* are often attracted to this quackery. So be it let them pass in peace.

Of course, when they buy glass it *might* truly be Quartz also. Pure SiO2 that has been vitrified on cooling rather than possessing a crystalline lattice structure? ;-)

I have two cut and polished specimens. The first I bought as such because it was relatively cheap and allowed me to examine with great clarity the several acicular Rutile inclusions that it contained. The other was a small Indicolite specimen with a 'closed C' that was one of the first stones I bought. I sent this away to have the bronen end cut and polished to match the natural pinacoidal termination at the opposite end and also to have a flat cut and polished on one of the trigonal sides, exactly parallel to the C axis. This enables me to demonstrate some interesting anomalies in the optic character of this biaxial stone. It has also (and quite unexpectedly) slowly changed its colour following this treatment (a year ago) and is now almost black. The reason for this I am still researching. It's interesting stuff, Tourmaline.

I expect, occasionally, to have other stones cut in future for the purpose of extending my learning, as do some others. It may not be a 'nice' thing to do but it's hard to experience the anatomy of a body without dissecting some corpses.]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 28 Aug 2012 22:42:03 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269659#msg-269659 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269659#msg-269659 Yanick Beaudet Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 28 Aug 2012 18:38:06 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269465#msg-269465 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269465#msg-269465
Is it not more generally useful to label an item according to its properties rather than strictly by it's place of origin? When a place name should be used as a type label is debatable but, whatever, it occasionally happens and labels, once applied, tend to stick.

IMHO there is much less reason for shout 'fraud!' because a double-terminated Rock Crystal from any place in the world is called 'Herkimer' than that a similar stone dug up in Herkimer NY USA is named as a Diamond! Mote, beam, eye, plucking ;-) Better still, lets have another beer....]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:07:10 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269442#msg-269442 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269442#msg-269442 Spencer Ivan Mather Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:03:14 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269439#msg-269439 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269439#msg-269439
Only a beginner would fail to distinguish correctly a cut and polished specimen from a natural under just x10 mag - or even none.

There is a place for the polishing/part polishing of specimens where the interest is, either or both, to examine microscopically the interior features of a crystal or observe or measure accurately some of its optical characteristics - or even simply its colour.

Such treatment of crystals is not only a commonplace in research but is also a frequent precursor to offering some items fro sale (e.g. Jadeite boulders before auction).

If dealers' labels are a be all and end all for some, so be it. It's a very human trait - as a several thousand year record of trading in and exhibition of Saints' relics and similar shows. Chaqu'un à son gôut. For others, it is more important to understand, in detail, what they have in their hand than to have a (his)story as to where it came from. Of course, to know all and with 100% certainty of accuracy would be very nice - but that is a goal (IMHO) not commonly achieved.

Owen]]> Owen Lewis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 26 Aug 2012 13:44:31 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269412#msg-269412 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,269412#msg-269412 Yanick Beaudet Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 26 Aug 2012 03:16:11 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264138#msg-264138 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264138#msg-264138 Amanda Hawkins Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 20 Jun 2012 16:38:41 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264025#msg-264025 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264025#msg-264025 Yes, all these localities are in the sedimentary Appalachian Basin, in carbonate rocks of Cambrian to Silurian age. Crystalline rocks of the "Appalachian Mountains" are represented by the Blue Ridge and Great Smoky Mountains in the southern areas, and by most of New England in the north. The Blue Ridge has been thrust to the west up to 150 miles in the last of the Appalachian orogenies, stopping less than a mile from overriding the quartz crystals at Front Royal. They have the power!]]> Tom Tucker Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:40:58 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264004#msg-264004 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264004#msg-264004 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:32:25 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264002#msg-264002 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,264002#msg-264002
There are also similar small double terminated quartz crystals from Afghanistan with yellow petroleum inclusions as well as carbon particles. They often have floating bubbles (and carbon bits) - amazing under an eye glass :-)]]> Amanda Hawkins Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 18 Jun 2012 21:23:02 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263996#msg-263996 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263996#msg-263996
I'm ignorant of the geology of that part of the country, so I hope someone with more knowledge than I steps in to describe it, but I suspect that from a geological perspective those rocks might be part of the "Appalachian Basin" rather than the true Appalachian "mountains", but I'm merely quibbling... Closer to the actual ancient continental collision front, things got quite strongly metamorphosed.]]> Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 18 Jun 2012 19:53:20 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263989#msg-263989 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263989#msg-263989 Tom Tucker Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 18 Jun 2012 18:41:57 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263904#msg-263904 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263904#msg-263904
Your response simply reinforces the last point I made in my point--what you state in your descriptions is very much in your control. I'm afraid that your argument can only be categorized in my mind as "the appeal to ignorance" type, meaning that whatever has not been proved false must perforce be true, and vice versa. This is the argument that took you down what must have been a lengthy digressionary search into the possibility for sedimentary formations in Tibet so that you could argue that a herkimer-type quartz could form there, even if it hasn't been found yet.

I also note that you use another tactic commonly known as "arguing from authority". That is to say that scientific terms and explanations interspersed in your sales literature sets you up as an authority on a subject that then tends to validate other non-scientific statements relating to things like crystal cleansing and healing.

What I can say in support is that your jewelry is attractive, and I think you're a good artist.

Regards, John]]> John Stolz Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 17 Jun 2012 07:08:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263899#msg-263899 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263899#msg-263899
I don't know the geology of the area intimately, so this is a generalization.

I do not doubt there are sedimentary basins in the expanded idea of "cultural" Tibet, which includes the Jinkouhe area in your analysis.
Metamorphism would change the rock and recrystalization would result, so if the basins are outside the metamorphic zones it is much more possible to have double terminated quartz. The key is that the crystals must have had uninhibited growth opportunity in order to form double terminations, and this is unlikely in the conditions of metamorphism.

If you are going to include "cultural" Tibetan areas in your definition of what constitutes Tibet to serve your purpose, then you have reasoned yourself into the justification to call these Tibetan, although to me it is still a big stretch.

Good luck with your artistic endeavors.
regards,
stephanie :-)]]> Stephanie Martin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 17 Jun 2012 04:02:57 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263892#msg-263892 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263892#msg-263892 Tibetan Provinces Map Andy was correct. Jinkouhe, Leshan is surrounded by Tibetan land.

Only about 1/3 of Tibetans live in what China's government has given the name, Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR), and what our maps call "Tibet." The Tibetan people, however, see things differently. TAR is only half of what is traditionally Tibetan land, an enormous expanse of land that actually comprises about 1/4 of China's entire land mass. [www.tibetnetwork.org] Be sure to also read the fine print underneath the map. Most of this is uninhabited, unexplored, undeveloped, and un-mined. Degree of exploration map.

Here is what we do know about this vast expanse: We know there are sedimentary basins. Here's a map to illustrate:

China Sedementary Map
This is the article accompanying the map: [www.sciencedirect.com] Scroll down to figure 3 for the basin names.

Now these maps show sedimentary basins along the Himalayan Range: Himalayan Sedimentary Basins, and More Himalayan Sedimentary Rock

The edges of India and Tibet were originally coastal so many fossils and sedimentary rock can be found in the Himalayas. [work.geobiology.cn] This link is to an extensive study on a small area in the Himalayas. Though it is long, there are some great graphs that show what types of rocks were in what area and what fossils can be found. There is even some dolomite.

This map shows dolomite as well: Himalayan Rock

And this is just really interesting. A fellow snapped some photos of the Qaidam Basin, one of which he refers to "Quartz-like material." He says, "The whole area is full of shiny mineral all over the ground." It's also worth your time to browse his whole gallery, just for kicks. [www.pbase.com]

Also in the Qaidam Basin are supposedly some strange "metal pipes" that supposedly were analyzed by Chinese scientists (who apparently aren't very good at math. ) [rabbithole2.com] Hmmm. Let's see: 30% ferric oxide + a large amount of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide + 80% unidentifiable material = A whole lot of BS. But the photo is cool anyway.

So back to the topic at hand, can Herk shaped dt's be found in Tibet? Even when we only look at TAR, aren't there certainly enough sedimentary landscapes and uncharted land for dt's to be highly possible? Even along the outskirts of the Himalayas there is a lot of sediment and even dolomite. But when you ponder what the people consider to comprise Tibet, like:

Ganzi Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Ngawa Tibetan and Qiang Autonomous Prefecture,
Yushu Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Diqing Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Hainan Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Dêqên Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture...

...then now I say, "Yes."]]> Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 17 Jun 2012 03:09:36 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263878#msg-263878 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263878#msg-263878
Let me illustrate this further: If somebody goes into a stone shop or mineral expo, they've already walked in the door. Items don't need search terms and detailed listings. They can SEE the items and TALK to the dealer. It's a completely different situation when you are selling online, requiring a different strategy. You have to get people to walk in your INVISIBLE door. You have to use the words that they are most likely to use, in order to make your door visible to them. Then you can explain to them in the listing, everything they would want to know about the item. I hope this makes more sense to you, John. :-) If you would like to see an example of how I have placed these tags in my listing, go to: [www.etsy.com] Please feel free to share your thoughts.

And on a really annoying side note, for some reason google products doesn't find me when searching "Tibetan Double Terminated Quartz Pendant", even though this is littered throughout my listings and at the beginning of my titles, but "Tibetan Herkimer Diamond" (only found at the end of my title and once in the listings) puts me right at the top. ??? Oh hey, but if you add Phantom to the former, I'm the only one. :)]]> Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 17 Jun 2012 00:33:22 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263830#msg-263830 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263830#msg-263830
Just because a customer base uses the wrong terminology doesn't mean that the vendor should. The vendor is often seen, whether correctly or not, as an authority of sorts, or at least as one who can be relied on to provide factual, if limited information. So to say something like "whether potential customers using are technically correct terms or not is something we cannot control" is a bit of a cop out in my eyes. We most certainly can control what we issue forth onto the world around us, and in fact it is a matter of personal integrity to many whether or not we do so.

However, we also have our livelihoods to consider, and for vendors this is a function of customers considering the vendor a go-to source for their needs. Perhaps the decision to use technically correct terms in describing wares in the face of losing an customer who does not know enough to for what they want represents a very high form of control.

John]]> John Stolz Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 16 Jun 2012 16:14:28 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263807#msg-263807 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263807#msg-263807
A very over-simplistic short answer:
The environment and host rock in which the Herkimer crystals grew are sedimentary in nature and pockets that formed allowed for the eventual slow uninhibited growth of crystals from solution. This would be unlikely in metamorphic environments such as mountains.

Hope this helps.
regards,
stephanie :-)]]> Stephanie Martin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 16 Jun 2012 03:50:18 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263792#msg-263792 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263792#msg-263792
I use this title because people who are looking specifically for what I sell are using these terms when searching google or etsy. The way to get traffic is to use the search terms that people use. Whether they are technically correct terms or not is something we cannot control. For example, it is legal to sell heat-treated amethyst as "citrine" even though it is NOT citrine. There are countless items online listed as "natural citrine" and they are clearly NOT "natural" or "citrine". Sellers in the US are supposed to disclose that it is "treated" and when they don't, THAT is fraud (and often they don't.) But (sadly) most "citrine" sold is not actually citrine and that is perfectly legal. :-(

I am more concerned with whether they are actually Tibetan. For anybody using that search term, (potentially my customers) this is important to them, therefore it is important to me. Does anybody have information on any dt quartz coming from other locations (besides the Himalayas) in Tibet? Even just providing mining locations so I can research them is helpful.]]> Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sat, 16 Jun 2012 00:16:13 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263734#msg-263734 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263734#msg-263734
Alan]]> Alan Barnes (2) Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 15 Jun 2012 12:00:47 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263725#msg-263725 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263725#msg-263725 www.mindat.org] I also found some darker ones online that look like another "Tibetan" lot I have.

Andy, I see now how Sichuan boarders Tibet Autonomous Region, though whether Jinkhouhe could be considered Tibet???? I wouldn't. However, I just read that Tibet is the 2nd largest Province in China (over 460,000 sq miles). Not only are the Himalayas in the South, but there are many mountain ranges, including Kunlun, Tanggula, Gangdise, Hengduan and Nyainqentanglha Ranges.

Now I'm really curious to know if any of Tibet's other mountains have the right conditions to produce "Herk" shaped quartz. Please share your thoughts. :)]]> Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 15 Jun 2012 10:54:22 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263721#msg-263721 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263721#msg-263721 I know this is about minerals and not culture/religion, yet: The Jinkouhe area is well within the "Eastern Tibetan" cultural area. Culturally, the Tibetans here follow a different branch of Buddhism called "Bon" (some call it pre-Buddhist, some look at it as being one of two types of Tibetan Buddhism) so it's correct to call this region "Tibetan". Therefore, calling these quartzes "Tibetan" is - besides being VERY, VERY marketable - not all wrong.
From what I know, formation of these quartzes is very much like that of the Herkimers, only the host rock is younger (late Permian, I think).
Andy]]> Andy Stucki (2) Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 15 Jun 2012 09:04:30 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263708#msg-263708 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263708#msg-263708 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 15 Jun 2012 01:24:02 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263706#msg-263706 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263706#msg-263706 On this site we say that beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder.

So no, you have not been 'duped'.... that is, unless you spent more than $12 on the doubly terminated quartz shown in the picture. You could obtain these for that amount at any rock show.

Regards,
Dean Allum]]> Dean Allum Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Fri, 15 Jun 2012 00:20:04 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263644#msg-263644 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263644#msg-263644 www.himalayanclarity.com] who mines Himalayan quartz in India. Nothing on his site look like the "Tibetan Herkimers" I have purchased. I have 2 books with photos that look like my stones, but I'm questioning now whether the authors are correct.

HOWEVER, most stones I've purchased look a have fine lines, black spots and are a little longer. Can you give me some sort of idea of how much longer alpine-type are? I'd like to know if I have been duped. Do you know of a collection of photos of Tibetan dt's? And how possible are stubbier Tibetan dt's??? Any info is helpful. I've done so much research in the last day I've gotten a headache. :(

Thank you.

[attachment 39065 tibetandtquartz1.jpg]]]> Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 14 Jun 2012 01:20:18 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263558#msg-263558 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263558#msg-263558 Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 13 Jun 2012 01:50:09 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263556#msg-263556 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,263556#msg-263556 Jennifer Shipley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 13 Jun 2012 00:40:07 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,262750#msg-262750 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,262750#msg-262750 not likely to be found in is the Himalayas - wrong geology. So I will assume that any "Tibetan herkimers" are a scam to take advantage of the mystically minded folks' attraction to all things tibetan.]]> Alfredo Petrov Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 05 Jun 2012 23:58:56 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,262740#msg-262740 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,42231,262740#msg-262740
The better question, is, have YOU any other localities that report not having striation? As this is nearly a universal attribute to quartz xls (except those that are beta), that would be something that would QUICKLY be reported. I don't say that there aren't some localities that RARELY produce a striationless quartz xl or 2; but, producing more than a handful is something else. From Middleville, eastward on over to about Lasalleville, this is the normal situation for the Herks, large or small; that's QUITE a large area of occurrance to display such an unusual property. That also makes it a pretty definative one for location ID.

Another property, which I LOVE to show people, is, though the xls look SO UTTERLY CLEAR, they will cast a darker shadow than other clear quartzes, of the same thickness; everyone is always amazed by this.

Your friend, Steve]]> steven garza Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 05 Jun 2012 22:55:39 +0000