Mindat Mineralogy Messageboard - Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys

Re: Fake (irradiated) dark fluorites from "Bikov, Siberia"

Adam Kelly — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:27:26 +0000

Thanks,
I was just looking at one of those on E-bay.
Too bad, they are very aesthetic.

Re: OMG!!! Torbernite as a Gemstone For Sale

Alfredo Petrov — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 06:26:50 +0000

As Freakingcat describes, the danger is only to the cutter, not the final collector, and the cutters can take appropriate precautions. Radioactive minerals, and minerals containing toxic elements (like realgar) periodically raise a storm of fear among timid collectors, but none of the collectors I know goes to the trouble of powdering their specimens and then inhaling or swallowing them - Why would one do such a thing? And in their solid form, kept outside the human body, they are harmless. If you are one of those strange collectors who do powder and drink or inhale your minerals, then I'm sorry for you but you have serious problems quite apart from your mineral collection.

I'm often amused by collectors who worry about keeping "dangerous" betafite or uraninite in the house, but then encourage their children to take up football, skiing, or motorbikes, all far more likely to cause injury or death than the mineral specimen. Even eating sugary and greasy foods is more likely to harm you than touching a realgar.

Again, for the umpteenth time in these fora: Do not inhale dust from mineral specimens (or any other kind of dust for that matter); do not swallow your minerals; do not leave them where your precious kids can swallow them; and wash your hands after handling them and before you eat your sandwiches. All very simple commonsense advice that will make your minerals much safer than your sausage and ice cream. No need to fear the minerals.

Re: OMG!!! Torbernite as a Gemstone For Sale

FREAKINGCAT — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 05:45:22 +0000

We just found this thread here and we would to reply:

We are very well informed about the radioactivity of some of our items we facet. When we received the rough material we had it analysed by AIGS who confirmed the high radioactivity. One leading gemologist of AIGS even came to our house with his own geiger counter to check if any radioactivity remained after cutting on the machines or if our workers have been exposed to it. The cutter who had worked on this material was fully aware of the radioactivity, indeed she is our main cutter and handles all gems who are very special to facet. The rough material or gems had not been touched directly with the bare hand, the cutting had been done outside and not in a closed room with a fan blowing any dust away from the cutter who was of course protected with facemask, gloves etc.

We offer those items as there are many collectors who are interested in very special material and if one buyer decides to buy one radioactive material, he/she gets of course informed about the radioactivity. Some of the bigger thorites we even had certificated with AIGS and the report very well indicates the radioactivity on it.

About the Torbernite: As described in the auction, this torbernite was facetted IN MATRIX as the crystals are very small. We found a new way to make minerals which only occur in micros cuttable by facetting them in matrix. If one turns around those "gems" they show a precise facetting on the backside, the matrix. The top has been left mostly untreated. We believe that by doing this we are able to expand the limits of what can be collected.

If one doesnt agree with this, then please do not buy those gems from us, but stick to badly facetted oval cuts of amethysts with big windows >:D<

Thanks!
FREAKINGCAT

Fake (irradiated) dark fluorites from "Bikov, Siberia"

Uwe Kolitsch — Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:04:21 +0000

I was told by Mindat member Martin Gruell that [www.mindat.org] is one of typical fakes on the market since about 2002 (fabricated "by a Hungarian"), now also sold on the web.
The specimen is actually from Yaogangxian, but there are also faked specimens from Xianghuapu/Xinghuapin.
Irradiation turns the fluorites blue to emerald-green, and the normal quartzes to smokey quartz.

An article by Robert Brandstetter on these fakes is planned for Lapis magazine.

Re: The more you learn...

Lyla J. Tracy — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 02:38:20 +0000

Hi Gail,

I suspect those fake gold specimens I reported on a few months ago are back on the market. Very frustrating! Lyla

Re: irradiated Quarts from Arkansas: Danger?!

Stephen C. Blyskal — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:17:09 +0000

Jervin,

It is obvious from your description that you bought natural rock crystal quartz that had been irradiated. What no one has mentioned is that there is natural smoky quartz from Arkansas. I have one in my collection, and it is one of the prizes of my Arkansas collection. It is a transparent crystal of a light smoky color, and very different from any irradiated quartz I have seen. My late friend Art Smith, a noted Arkansas collector, also has several in his collection. These are from the same belt of folded rocks in Montgomery, Garland and Saline Counties that produce the tons of clear quartz you see on the market.

In addition, there are natural smoky quartz crystals found around the edge of the Magnet Cove intrusion. At the Clark Runyan prospect the novaculite is fractured and the spaces full of short, dark, mostly opaque smoky quartz. The smoky color is not usually dominant in the whole crystal, and there are gray zones, leading to the common miners term "coon-tail quartz". At the Moses Hill brookite locality giant smoky quartz crystals were found in one part of the excavation, up to 12" x 3". However most of the quartz collected there was primarily grad opaque, with small areas of smoky color, the crystals tend to be distorted. They were formed from the heat of the intrusion and it's inherent radioactivity reacting with the siliceous novaculite.

The more you learn...

Gail Spann — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 13:39:52 +0000

Last year we were offered a scapolite specimen, it had two index finger sized crystals perched side by side, straight up...about 1/8 inch apart. It was about 2 in the morning and we bought it. The next morning I saw that it was too good to be true, it was glued with matrix crushed in to make it look natural, and upon further examination I saw that the crystals were not actually grown in that matrix at all. I called the dealer to come get it and was satisfied with the exchange. I also told the dealer that it was fake and I never wanted to see it for sale, anywhere. He claimed he picked it up from another dealer and would return it and pass the message along.
A few weeks later I talked to him and he claimed he had told the original dealer and that the fellow had scoffed at the idea. ( Even my dealer had admitted it was, indeed, a fake! )
I heard the piece was for sale in Tucson and at a high price. I saw a photo of it in the dealer's case. I hope that anyone who saw it and held it noticed that it was not as nature made it.
Anyone else have stories of returned fakes that are up for sale again?

Re: Fake Niahite from Poland.

Renato Pagano — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 10:19:44 +0000

Some Romenian dealers had various fakes for sale at the Torino, Italy Show, October 2009. Some of them where natural quartz crystal groups on which white acicular crystals were grown to make the specimens look different and more interesting. I took a small fragment of this material and Dr. Francesco Direnzo kindly analysed it by X ray diffraction, confirming the identification of this ammonium phosphate.
Caveat emptor!

Renato Pagano

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Rock Currier — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:24:35 +0000

Al,
Welcome to the club

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Allen Steinburg — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 02:22:28 +0000

Rock

Here I had though I was getting pretty good at remembering to do that. I guess it`s not only my hair I`m loosing :)

Al

Re: Have the reverse-skeletal Madan galenas been faked?

Ken Doxsee — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 22:09:56 +0000

Yes, as Dominik notes, seeing the dimples and other surface defects made me think these could represent early stages of the dissolution process. --Ken

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Steve Hardinger — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:58:36 +0000

It's pretty clear these are made by combing quartz and smelt, a type of fish. Hence the name 'smelt quartz.'

Now that's funny.

Or 'smelt' refers to 'melting' as in 'to smelt an ore.' In this case I believe the term refers to the melting of glass (and probably not quartz) followed by the addition of some coloring agent.

Whether from melting or from fish, these 'smelt quartz' are pretty but definitely not natural.

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Jan Styer-Gold — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:30:28 +0000

This is how one of them was listed:

"RARE NATURE CHERRY Red QUARTZ CRYSTAL 60 mm"

Misspelling the word "NATURE" covers their backs/butts. I wonder how many people have taken that word to mean "Natural?" What a shame!

Jan

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Donald Slater — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:59:39 +0000

I first saw these in Tucson several years ago. The Australian dealer selling them said they were made by melting quartz, probably quartz sand, and adding cinnabar and barite. I am not too sure why barite, but the color looks right for cinnabar. I didn't notice if the dealer on Ebay was saying they are natural and genuine, buy most dealers I have seen selling them are selling them as man made.

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Allen Steinburg — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:30:58 +0000

Sorry about the typos. I really must proof read my posts first!

Allen,
I have learned to use and cherish the edit button at the bottom of these fields. It has allowed me to clean up after myself many times.
Rock

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Allen Steinburg — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:29:38 +0000

I think thre are two clues other thatn they are from China that should tell you to stear away from this. 1-the colour, 2- they are too perfect in the terminations and clossyness. Also I suppose is a third one and that is, they are all identical. I have seen many like this on Ebay and of different coloues and sizes.

Al

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Rick Dalrymple — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:16:27 +0000

I just looked at some of those a dealer was passing off as polished brazilian quartz. They are glass. They have air bubbles and flow bands.

Re: Have the reverse-skeletal Madan galenas been faked?

Dominik Schläfli — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:02:10 +0000

Alfredo, there are dimples in the center of some of the cube faces. That could show an early stage of a development leading to hollowed out cubes.

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Jan Styer-Gold — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:55:28 +0000

Hi Kristi,

This material (colored glass) has been around for a few years. It is most commonly advertised as "Cherry Quartz." Occasionally it's called "Strawberry Quartz." It may be seen as beads, spheres, cabochons, and cut into shapes resembling quartz crystals, like the one you have listed above. The source is usually China. Need I say more? ;)

Jan

Re: Smelt Quartz?

Rob Woodside — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:47:43 +0000

Probably glass.

Smelt Quartz?

Kristi Huggins — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:43:14 +0000

I found a dealer on Ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260508247278 selling "Smelt Quartz". This looks like another lovely item (enter sarcastic look here) from China.

Can anyone tell me about this?

Thanks,
Kristi

Re: Have the reverse-skeletal Madan galenas been faked?

Alfredo Petrov — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 03:32:47 +0000

You're right, Ken, those are bizarre; but I don't see any similarity to the "hollow" skeletons this thread is about.

Re: Have the reverse-skeletal Madan galenas been faked?

Ken Doxsee — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:46:35 +0000

OK, check out this specimen. I find it hard to believe that someone other than Mother Nature would deign to make such bizarre alterations! The link is to an auction site that will close in about 6 hours, so look quickly! --Ken

Skeletal Galena

Re: gold?

Thomas Uhlig — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:47:55 +0000

Due to my own experiences in gold panning, I could confirm an affinity of gold to iron compounds. It is not unusal for natural gold nuggets and flakes, to have a reddish patina of iron hydroxide, which could be easily removed by putting it in hydrochloric acid.

The attached picture shows a nugget (or better flake) of 2.34 mm x 1.62 mm with coverings of red-brown iron hydroxide.

Re: gold?

Lyla J. Tracy — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:52:16 +0000

Marius, I have personally mined, (removed from the vein) gold specimens with those same distorted octohedra crystals. That original specimen is very typical of crystallized gold. The color is not a big deal. Gold can naturally, depending on its constituents, show slightly different color variations. ( even in the same mine)

Your english translation is just fine.
Lyla

Re: gold?

Marius Utens — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 09:01:02 +0000

I think it is not naturel?
1.The structure of the ring on the right side.
2 The reddish colour on some places.
Marius
Sorry for me english.I must translate each word.So it is difficult to discuss with you.

Re: Ebay diamonds in kimberlite??

Jamey Swisher — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:36:52 +0000

I highly doubt they would be diamonds. Diamonds are extremely hard, but they are also extremely fragile due to the cleavage planes. While a diamonds can scratch almost anything, a simple slam/knock parallel to a cleavage plane and bam, you could very well, and most likely would, have a sheared off diamond.

Diamonds in an arrow or spear head would be busted all up and most definitely NOT be sticking out of the host material still retaining their crystal habitat/form, sorry. Just the knapping process alone would cause most of the diamond crystals to cleave off.

Also, the diamonds in that area, if they were, would be either Type Ia or Type Ib. What this means is they would have a slight brown or yellow tint(Ia) or they would be yellow(Ib).

Hardness is the resistance to being scratched, where diamonds are tops on the list. Tenacity is the resistance to being broken, where diamonds are very low on the list!

Not to mention many times the Native Americans(I know from my own heritage.. Blackfoot and Lenape) used fire when making arrows and spears. It hardens the wood and makes the product much more versatile and allows for greater penetration. Many times the tip/head was also directly exposed to fire for a bit, this would/could do some damage to diamonds more then likely, since diamonds like to go *poof* and turn into carbon dust when they get torched, lol, hence why there are typically not any diamonds in jewelry with fire damage insurance claims, just a pile of molten metal or slightly melted metal and some carbon residue. I know diamonds in air will burn/combust at around 1650F if my memory holds true, but I have no clue what the max temperature a campfire/clay oven fire may reach, sorry, so this may or may not be a possibility.

Also, as already mentioned, there would NOT be this many diamonds in one piece either! While diamonds are anything but rare, they are also not quite that common, lol.

So something is definite amiss.

Re: gold?

Adam Kelly — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:07:49 +0000

Jim, it's harder to find gold at night.B)
I live in Breck, and they have beautiful wire gold also.
AK

Re: gold?

Lyla J. Tracy — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:07:47 +0000

Marius, the original piece looks quite typical to me, whereas I don't think your specimens would fool many people. Lyla

Re: gold?

Jolyon Ralph — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 00:22:32 +0000

The texture on the gold specimen shown by the original poster is relatively common in crystallized gold, I don't see any cause for concern.

Jolyon