Mindat Mineralogy Messageboard - Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tips for staying safe online and off http://www.mindat.org/msgboard-55.html Sat, 25 May 2013 05:47:23 +0000 Phorum 5.2.15a http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294567#msg-294567 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294567#msg-294567 Scott Braley Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 May 2013 16:00:13 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294563#msg-294563 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294563#msg-294563 Dave Owen Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 May 2013 15:10:51 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294551#msg-294551 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294551#msg-294551 SlagGlassJulie Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Thu, 23 May 2013 10:22:47 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294473#msg-294473 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294473#msg-294473
I think it goes back longer than ten thousand years ;-)

Really old bad habbits are even harder to break !]]> Wayne Corwin Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 22 May 2013 13:47:45 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294451#msg-294451 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294451#msg-294451 Rock Currier Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 22 May 2013 01:56:43 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294447#msg-294447 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294447#msg-294447 I was speaking with Erica Rock about a lot of her "andaras" coming from me (she purchased them from Dorene), and she was on fire about it. She truly thought they were from "sacred land". She got off of the phone with me and called Mark Nea. We then talked again and she said that he was going to get back to her on exactly where his andaras came from. haha, I know. I said, "Erica, that would be like me having to tell you I would get back to you on information about my son. He is my life. He is 3 years old and I can tell you everything about him." I went on to tell her that there is absolutely no way that he would have to find out and get back to her, that this stuff is his life, his business, and that what he really needed was time to collaborate a story with Mickey.]]> SlagGlassJulie Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Wed, 22 May 2013 00:30:32 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294443#msg-294443 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294443#msg-294443 Based on informative, detailed explanations about the "air bubbles" in the "andara crystals", they are human spirits trapped in there and if you pay CLOSE attention, they will MOVE! For goodness sakes! If you sum up the information out there, this is what happened...Andaras fell from the sky and are made from nothing. You can find them under the ground where white powder is present. This white powder is residue from unicorns horns rubbing together in play. The end.

As if it isn't bizarre enough to read about, he posted videos about it on Youtube.

If possible, is there a way for you to contact me without me putting my personal info on here?]]> SlagGlassJulie Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 21 May 2013 23:50:38 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294442#msg-294442 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294442#msg-294442 I just got the EXACT same emails from Stephen Manz. EXACT. I have been patiently trying to inform others of what is going on here and insist that there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that "new" andara colors are popping up out of "sacred" ground at the same time I am getting the identical color variations from a glass dump (above ground). One person even said to me "People are trying to copy andaras now". I told her it is impossible for a glass factory to "copy an andara" as it is nothing more than garbage to them. I recently listed some glass on Ebay as "non Andara Crystal Pendant" with andara vs. slag glass information to get the word out. I have made quite a few major andara sellers aware that their glass came from me (unintentionally on my part). Some are shocked, but to tell the truth, Dorene is the only one who has stopped selling so far. Oddly (to me anyway), they go back and quote Mickey Magic as if that solves the entire debate. WHO stands to lose the most money? He is the kingpin. He HAS some glass that came from me. He sells them as crystals. Through Erica Rock, I offered him to have his "crystals" tested against my slag glass in any form, any time...he wasn't interested. However, Erica DID test my glass with expensive equipment and I quote her as saying to me "But your glass was tested and it was the EXACT SAME as the andaras!" I told her that is because it IS the exact same; it is glass from glass factories. The end.]]> SlagGlassJulie Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 21 May 2013 23:36:56 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294423#msg-294423 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294423#msg-294423
Your point about using RAW is well taken. JPEG is a very lossy compression technique and should not be used for anything that you might want to "manipulate" later. Changing white balance, doing any color correction on JPEGs can yield very bad results. You essentially throw away colors and cannot get them back when you work with JPEG.

One other point, if your camera has the capability to change the bit depth, set it to the maximum, e.g., most cameras come set for 8 bits per color, but some higher end cameras allow for a setting of 12 or 14 bits per color (R, G, and B). The higher the bit depth the more manipulation you can perform on the image without serious loss.

When you have the image in final form, only then can you convert to the very lossy 8 bit JPEG for display, print, or upload to MinDat and you will have better quality images.

Ron]]> Ronald J. Pellar Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Tue, 21 May 2013 19:03:15 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294351#msg-294351 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294351#msg-294351
You can also get a Gretag color chart, or similar, to help in post processing, these include both black, white and grey, as well as primary (B/G/R) and secondary (M/C/Y) and other colors all in one chart - just make sure that you photograph the grey card and/or photo-quality color chart with the same illumination as your specimens, and that there are no hot-spots or unwanted reflections off of the card.

LED or fluorescent light sources, by definition, are not full spectrum and os will not accurately capture certain colors; I use either tungsten lamps for larger rocks or off-camera electronic flash for micros - both options are full spectrum and give equally good results, especially when using the color charts and grey cards for post-processing adjustments. With the post-processing and RAW conversion software provided by Canon, you can adjust the color balance on one image, then apply those corrections to all of the images taken at the same time, automagically. I'd also suggest shooting camera RAW in addition to JPG; in this way the color balance of the RAW can be adjusted at will, not relying on the camera's settings. I would not recommend mixing light types, as this could result in muddy colors and backgrounds, and make a good color balance almost impossible.

Finally, for the case of a wide exposure range, such as what Sofia described - a weak fluorescent response in a specimen with strong fluorescence, such as willemite with hardystonite, or in high contrast subjects in general, I have gotten good results by making multiple exposures over a 4 to 6 stop range, then combining in photoshop via layers, this is commonly referred to HIgh Dynamic Range (HDR) imaging - some cameras or software now does this automatically. Just make sure nothing moves, camera, light, or subject, between exposures.

Anyone serious about photographing minerals should get either GIMP (freeware) or Photoshop Elements (about $100 - but easier to use)]]> Jeff Weissman Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 18:43:00 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294348#msg-294348 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294348#msg-294348
Some hardystonites are associated with highly fluorescent willemite - I don't have a specialized equipment, it's a simple digital point & shoot camera. In those cases it's hard capture the much darker hardystonite blue - the willemite will overexpose. I make a note about that in the description, so again, I can only hope that the viewer will read, see and understand. I don't do it intentionally, it's just what it is with what I have.

As for the size - whenever I think of buying something I take out a ruler and see what 2 centimeters or 2 inches looks like on my hand. If the piece is measured within reason then there are no surprises when it arrives.

ATSM]]> Sofia Mathauser Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 18:14:54 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294346#msg-294346 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294346#msg-294346
I definitely think the corrections you made to the amazonite photo better represent the true color. In taking photos, I usually set the camera to "Auto". It doesn't always give the best results. I really need to review the manual about how to change the color/white balance. I'm still learning.

Best wishes,
Tim]]> Timothy Blackwood Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 17:52:56 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294344#msg-294344 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294344#msg-294344
Most digital cameras have a white balance setting, but these are only approximate. The best method is if the camera has a "custom" white balance setting that uses a gray card to establish the proper white balance. The gray card should be a spectrally neutral card, not any old white, gray, or black paper or cloth. A lot of white paper has brighteners in them which enhances blue to remove the yellow cast of paper. Gray paper, cloth, etc. are not exactly gray and will look gray under certain lighting but change the lighting and they are no longer neutral gray. The eye and the camera will view these as different and you will have a color "mismatch". There are several companies that make spectrally flat gray cards for the photo industry, e.g., Kodak, Gretag-McBeth, Robin Meyers Imaging, etc. (You can google for more).

Computer displays have there own color rendering problems. The old CRT displays are roughly equivalent to the sRGB color space that many digital cameras default to. More expensive DSLR cameras can and should be set to AdobeRGB color space. This space is a better match to the modern LCD color displays. Your computer display can usually be set to a "default color profile", but for very critical color matching the display should be measured for color and a specific "profile" created. The display profile setting affects the translation of color values from the camera to what the display can handle. The AdobeRGB color space has a larger color gamut than the sRGB color space, i.e., it can reproduce more saturated colors.

In general, for reasonable color rendition,
1) set the white balance properly (preferably with a spectrally neutral gray card),
2) do not use fluorescent or LED lighting,
3) use natural daylight or tungsten lighting,
4) do not mix different types of lighting,
5) set camera to AdobeRGB color values, if possible,
6) set LCD displays to AdobeRGB profile.
This should reduce any necessary color tweaking considerably.

I follow these steps for my photography and I do not have an issue with the appearance of the minerals on my display, even with some of the more problematic minerals like dioptase.

Ron]]> Ronald J. Pellar Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 17:47:09 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294333#msg-294333 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294333#msg-294333

[attachment 45529 527507.jpg]]]> Jeff Weissman Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 14:09:01 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294327#msg-294327 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294327#msg-294327 Vincent Rigatti Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 12:46:23 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294308#msg-294308 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294308#msg-294308 Timothy Blackwood Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 04:21:57 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294307#msg-294307 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294307#msg-294307
Andrew.]]> Andrew Johns Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 04:11:19 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294301#msg-294301 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294301#msg-294301
When viewing photos of specimens on computers, one thing people should keep in mind is that different devices aren't necessarily properly color calibrated so what looks one shade of blue on my monitor might be another shade of blue on your monitor. Or what might look purple on my monitor, might look pink on yours.]]> Jenna Mast Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 01:24:21 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294300#msg-294300 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294300#msg-294300
I was actually referring to the amazonite shown in the message from Fred Davis on page 1 of this thread (I did reference the photo ID number given in that message).

Tim B.]]> Timothy Blackwood Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Mon, 20 May 2013 01:17:52 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294294#msg-294294 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294294#msg-294294
As far as blatant or inadvertent image manipulation, I could name names and some have made POTD as well; but I could also name many who do a good job with accurate color and color balance/saturation rendition.

As far as the tourmaline image that started this thread, the image is either over saturated or strongly backlit, making the crystal more attractive than it appears - the image should have an associated note stating that it is backlit, otherwise, buyer beware and quite whining.

Tim J. - the acerbic comments here and elsewhere are greatly enjoyed!]]> Jeff Weissman Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 23:31:27 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294290#msg-294290 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294290#msg-294290
I uploaded photo 527507 to the galleries. I did not personally take the photo and have no knowledge of the camera used. Also, I did nothing to the color of the photo prior to uploading it. I've never even seen the specimen in person. It is apparent to me that different cameras may sense and render colors differently. What appeared to be turquoise-blue in person may be made to look very different by the camera's sensor. I've uploaded several photos of specimens from my own collection lately and have noticed variations in color depending upon the color of background, whether or not I used the camera's flash and whether or not I used additional backlighting. Just some thoughts. But please do not assume that all photos have been manipulated. I still haven't figured out how to accurately show a specimen's true color in every case. Returning to quietly lurking now until I have something else to say.

Best wishes,
Tim
Cohasset, Minnesota, USA]]> Timothy Blackwood Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 22:01:26 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294285#msg-294285 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294285#msg-294285 www.mindat.org] at 4.1 cm.

And Yes a ruler by the screen is essential when shopping the net.;-)]]> Rob Woodside Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 20:21:33 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294284#msg-294284 Re: Andara Crystal Scam http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,291045,294284#msg-294284


"Trust me...its monatomic crystal, I swear....wanna buy some pot with that?"
]]> Jim Meeker Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 20:18:54 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294283#msg-294283 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294283#msg-294283 Steve.]]> Steven Kuitems Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 20:05:42 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294273#msg-294273 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294273#msg-294273
Smoke 3 packs a day for a decade or two and your fingertips will look like that.

I'd like to see an x-ray of the poor bugger's lungs.]]> Tim Jokela Jr Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 18:39:54 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294264#msg-294264 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294264#msg-294264 David Von Bargen Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 17:50:17 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294262#msg-294262 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294262#msg-294262
Chris, I'm not sure what you're hearing is eBay bashing. That would suggest a hateful and "pewrsonal" attack. The operative issue is color manipulation. If you need outside the electronic world examples, just look at the amazonites in John Barlow's collection book.]]> Van King Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 16:52:05 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294258#msg-294258 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294258#msg-294258
Photography for vending is a real skill. If the photo is far better you may make faster sales, but you'll get more returns and a bad rep. If the photo is worse than the specimen any purchaser will be pleased. The trick is to honestly document the piece. Fortunately any real dealer does not have the time to muck about with the photo. Collectors however have all the time in the world.]]> Rob Woodside Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 16:23:02 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294251#msg-294251 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294251#msg-294251 Fred E. Davis Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 14:43:05 +0000 http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294250#msg-294250 Re: Blatant manipulation of color photographs http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,55,294223,294250#msg-294250 Steve Hardinger Fakes, Frauds and Marketing Ploys Sun, 19 May 2013 14:37:34 +0000