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LocalitiesPoudrette quarry (De-Mix quarry; Demix quarry; Uni-Mix quarry; Carrière Mont Saint-Hilaire; MSH), Mont Saint-Hilaire, La Vallée-du-Richelieu RCM, Montérégie, Québec, Canada

18th Jun 2014 21:21 UTCJames Urbaniak

I certainly understand and respect the need to cover the expenses of an operational mine and maximize profits. At the same time, I wonder, can't there be room and consideration for our passion for earth sciences and mineral collecting? Many favorite specimens in my collection come from this and other nearby mines and I consider them some of the most mesmerizing pieces in my collection. I can only imagine the spectacular specimens that have been destroyed for the sake of industrial commerce. Is there anyone who has an 'in' with the current owners, who might be able to secure some set days throughout each year as 'pay to dig' days for collectors? How is it that in the past7 years 4 field trips have been arranged? Did something happen to end these opportunities? I look forward to a positive resolution to this situation (from the rockhound's viewpoint).

Best Regards,

Jim Urbaniak

President, Oregon Agate & Mineral Society

19th Jun 2014 12:29 UTCRock Currier Expert

James,

If you were running the quarry and making your living from it, would you let collectors in considering their record leaving rock hammers in the blast pile that break your crusher and collect in dangerous places when no one is watching and when they get hurt taking you to court for damages? Tell me again how the benefits outweigh the risks.

19th Jun 2014 15:03 UTCJames Urbaniak

Rock,

Hence, my questions. As I asked, 'Did something happen to end these opportunities?' I guess you told me off but good.

Jim

19th Jun 2014 15:20 UTCFrank Ruehlicke 🌟

Jim,

There was an ownership change several years ago and the new owners simply don't see a benefit of allowing collectors in given they essentially receive nothing in return but take on liability and risks to their business. There are collectors trying to change the owners' mind but so far largely unsuccessfully.

-Frank

19th Jun 2014 16:37 UTCHenry Barwood

Quarry access is a touchy subject for most mining companies. I have over the years cultivated good will with companies by trying to help them out with mining/geology problems. Sometimes it helps gain a path of entry into a quarry sometimes not. Management definitely considers collecting to be a risk associated with little reward. Their best gain comes from general public relations. Even as an active researcher, I have had the door slammed in my face many times. Best advice I can offer is to tread lightly, be nice and try and look at things from their side of the table.

19th Jun 2014 17:23 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Has anyone thought of buying a truck-load of coarsely crushed stone, delivered? Perhaps you could ask for stone with lots of vugs, or better, yet, select what lot of stone you want. You get off-site collecting, quarry operator gets some cash. Of course, there is a high risk you may end up with a pile of stones.

19th Jun 2014 17:37 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

As always it comes down to money. I am sure if you were willing to pay they would truck as much uncrushed rock as you wanted to where ever you wanted it. You could probably even arrange to buy an entire blast in the area of your choice. On the other hand you could probably get the right to collect if you offered enough money just don't expect to get to do that for free.

19th Jun 2014 17:40 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

There's an optimistic rumour that they are quarrying rock devoid of pockets.

19th Jun 2014 17:48 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Rob,

You mean they are leaving all the good stuff behind!

19th Jun 2014 17:58 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

That's the rumour!!! I'd love to believe it!

19th Jun 2014 20:47 UTCJames Urbaniak

@ Jeff - LOL! I like how you're thinking, regarding a delivery of 'vuggy' gravel. When life deals you gravel, look for the mineral specimens. My kind of rockhound! ;-)

20th Jun 2014 00:31 UTCRock Currier Expert

No Jim, I didn't tell you off. I was merely playing devils advocate. Often, in spite of all the down side risks, quarry and mine owners can be persuaded to allow some sort of access for mineralogical purposes, and in the case of Mt. St. Hilaire we can only hope for the best. Some times they will allow a trusted person or two pretty much complete access to go in and save stuff from the crusher, but keep out all others. When ever a group comes in they often have to pay an employee or two to watch them to make sure that they don't cause problems. Some times their insurance carrier says, sure, you can allow non safety trained non employees into your quarry or mine, but if you do you will need to find another insurance carrier or perhaps we will need to double what you are currently paying us. Given the big down side exposure its amazing that any mine or quarry owner will allow any sort of collecting at all.

Another thing I find irritating is that sometimes governments pass laws that it is illegal to own or export certain kinds of minerals or fossils. If something good is found at St. Hilaire, the government of Canada prohibits its export till its museums have had a chance to look it over. You can't export specimens from Iceland unless you have a permit. Certain minerals from Madagascar are illegal to export. Until recently it was illegal to even own mineral specimens in Ethiopia. In China it is illegal to export certain kinds of fossils, although erosion forces had destroyed far more that collectors could ever collect. But of course it is perfectly ok to destroy all the specimens you want and do what ever you want with them as long as you crush them up for industrial purposes.

OK, just call me naturally grumpy.

20th Jun 2014 07:14 UTCToby Billing

I can understand the no collectors rule but they should have to let in a few folks in to collect for study, the losses to science in places like that and mines in Broken Hill a bit closer to home are sickening. I've no doubt there have been unknown species mined out, crushed and proceeded and lost forever in both locations.

20th Jun 2014 08:33 UTCRock Currier Expert

Over the years they have let in a few select people to collect people in additions to various groups and because of that thousands of specimens have been collected and distributed to the collecting community.

20th Jun 2014 12:11 UTCBob Harman

For several years I was the President of the Midwest chapter of Friends of Mineralogy. At that time our field trip coordinator was Ernie Carlson (now deceased). He was a geologist at Kent State University in Ohio. Many of you might remember that he wrote the oft used book on the Minerals of Ohio. In his long academic career he educated many of the management and geologist personnel at many of the great Ohio quarries. He, and the Midwest FoM chapter collectors, had a special relationship with these quarry people and as such made many trips into the quarries. My point here is that SPECIAL RELATIONSHIPS OFTEN DO MATTER. On the other end, getting into quarries after major screwups also matters. Someone, either a sneak in individual or part of an invited group, left a crack hammer at a Southern Illinois fluorite quarry. It fouled up their equipment and virtually no one has gotten in since.

Some quarries actually do have small collecting areas outside their forbidden zones, usually in the visitor areas. Sylvania quarry in Ohio is one that comes to mind. The quarry personnel at that quarry dump truck loads of rock into a pile and visitors can pick thru the rock looking for pyritized fossils. It is a community outreach program and the local school kids love it.

People on this forum who think all the mining and quarry managements should love us collectors for our interest in their profession, permitting us to collect in their quarries etc are just plain naive. Mining, quarrying and collecting interests simply just don't ordinarily mix. CHEERS…..BOB

20th Jun 2014 14:00 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

I frequently mention to the local collectors that there is a Canadian National Treasures Act. It's been used to prevent important specimens from leaving Canada. Maybe it can be used as a basis of regular scientific salvage? Arguably, Mont St-Hilaire is the most important locality in the world. I've asked people who are residents of the area if the town couldn't pass a local salvage access ordinance?

20th Jun 2014 14:03 UTCLászló Horváth Manager

As a collector who had the privilege of collecting at the Poudrette quarry since 1971, with a short interruption in the 1980s, until the current owner took over management of the quarry, I feel the pain more than most collectors who only had visited the quarry once or twice a year, since we could collect there nearly every weekend. The former owners, the Poudrette family and Demix Inc., understood the scientific importance of this mineralogical treasure and allowed access to the quarry for many years. We in the collecting community have been not only privileged to have access, but we were extremely lucky that over the many years of collecting and literally thousands of collectors visiting from all over the world, there was never a serious accident or death, which would have closed the quarry probably for ever. One must remember that quarry owners take a huge risk by allowing collectors on their properties because their insurance policies only cover their own employees and in the case of death or serious injury of visiting collectors, the owners can be sued. This is the reason why most quarries and mines in the USA will not allow collectors. If you keep everybody out you can avoid unnecessary problems.

When the new management took over the operation of the quarry at MSH, from day one there was no question of allowing collectors or even scientists access and collecting privileges. There was no specific reason given as far as I know, but the quarry operated 24/7 at a very high rate of production and it was understandable that they did not want to have collectors wondering around the blast piles and operating machinery. The quarry operations also changed from a central crushing plant to multiple portable crushing plants set up around the blast piles, which would preclude access to the freshly blasted rocks during operation.

The local mineral club approached the management and tried to convince them of the importance of the continuation of the ongoing scientific research. Eventually, several visits were allowed for smaller groups, including two this year, exclusively for members of the Club Mineralogie de Montreal. One can only hope that the softening of the quarry managements attitude to collectors will continue.

Jeff,

As for the suggestion of purchasing truckloads of rocks full of vugs, I am sure you can purchase any amount of rocks but you would rarely find vugs. Mineral producing vugs and pegmatites are quite uncommon and this is the reason that you have to be there all the time to keep looking for anything that is freshly exposed and collect it before it gets crushed.

20th Jun 2014 14:59 UTCBob Harman

Several more noteworthy tidbits have come to mind. First of all I think we recognize that this theme of collectors getting in to quarries to collect while the quarry managers object has been brought up multiple previous times with much the same discussions…………..

A long time friend, recently retired from the Indiana Geological Survey, relates that the Indiana Meshberger Stone Quarry, famous for great calcites, is so paranoid about non-emplyoees in their quarry that when he has been there doing official surveys etc, he has had to remain in their vehicle at nearly all times. He can't even get out to look at the vugs!

A long time collector friend snuck into Salem Quarry in Indiana and while collecting celestine, fell off a bench about 10', breaking his leg. With this and his other injuries, he crawled out to his car over an 8 hour time frame! He even retrieved his back pack and tools so no one would ever suspect that he had been in there as a sneak in. This occurred about 20 years ago and is now a nearly legendary story here in the Midwest!.

Someone related to me that just because we have somewhat similar peripheral interests to quarrying, mining and minerals as the quarry managers we should be allowed in to collect is like ……… being interested in attractive young ladies and then asking the local gynecologists to be allowed to do pelvic exams on their patients.!!!!!!!

It just does not work that way. CHEERS……BOB

20th Jun 2014 18:15 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

I've tried looking for "single event insurance" online. Most seem to be menu driven. The choices of kind of events is extensive, but inappropriate. The closest that one site had was motorcycling/mud racing, while another would quote on contact sports. Both are more dangerous than mineral collecting in a quarry.

You'll obviously have to talk to someone in person.

If a club in the USA had Federation Liability Insurance, then the total cost of the personal injury insurance for a one-day event, divided among the participants, could be considered the "entrance fee". I don't know if there is a Canadian Federation of Mineral Clubs equivalent to liability insurance, but if so, how much would you be willing the pay as your share of additional accident insurance? $25, $50, $100? (There is a story about a famous mineral collector/author, Dr. C. A. Stephens, who wanted to get fire insurance for his personal research laboratory. As he didn't want to reveal he was the first resercher on gerontology, he asked his insurance agent (who was coincidentally the father of the man who named the mineral variety watermelon tourmaline): "What is the highest imsurance rate?" The reply was "a blacksmith shop". Stephens said: "I'll pay that rate."

20th Jun 2014 19:48 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Even with insurance you are still counting on the generosity of the company. Along with the insurance and offering to pay a collecting fee you would have a much better chance of getting in, however since they are operating 24/7 the compensation for any disruption may push the fee out of reach. Before going to all the trouble of sourcing insurance I think you would be better off finding out first what it would take to get in.

20th Jun 2014 20:21 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

In the 70's or 80's after a particularly successful weekend collecting, Paddy Collins returned to Ottawa and talked to a reporter for the Ottawa Citizen. The published article mentioned that they had removed a quarter of a million dollars in good specimens that weekend. Poor Mr. Poudrette didn't make that much from the quarry in a year. So in frustration St Hilaire suffered its first closure that lasted some time. Others will know more of this story and might reply.

20th Jun 2014 21:02 UTCBob Harman

ROB W , Your posting is another part of this complex equation. You might recall that in the past I posted of a somewhat similar situation here in Indiana.

In December 2010 the Midwest chapter of FoM collected pyritized nodules in the overburden shale of the Indianapolis Harding street quarry. Collecting was great and everyone came away with many hi quality examples. Within a few weeks a large amount of the collected material turned up for sale in a couple of dealer listings. Hundreds of hi quality pyrite nodules at about $25 - $50 apiece translated to enough to incense quarry management as they happened to find about the selling of the collected nodules. They complained that their own employees could easily have had the opportunity to collect these, sell them, and make a few extra bucks. I agreed and wrote an op ed piece for the Friends of Mineralogy newsletter and posted the same on this very website. Very few have gained entrance to that quarry since that episode.

Weekend invited clubs and groups of collectors should be very careful, remembering we are taking the quarry's material for collections and NOT IMMEDIATE RESALE thus depriving their employees of some extra income. CHEERS……BOB

20th Jun 2014 21:11 UTCJames Urbaniak

I think there is potentially an interesting opportunity surrounding this challenge and maybe this is a topic requiring further inquiry on the part of both Canadian and US mineralogical federations. Obviously some things just are what they are but you never know when a viable option might present itself to two oppossing parties and a mutual agreement can be come to.

20th Jun 2014 23:09 UTCBob Harman

JAMES , If you had read these posts you might recognize that this problem of getting into quarries to collect has been hashed over many times for a number of years now. The national Friends of Mineralogy board of directors and the national board of Federation of Mineral Societies, among others, have tried with some limited success to come to agreements with quarry management in many locations. If what you are asking for is the possibility of your club and others getting into regional quarries to collect, you should develop a long standing relationship with each quarry's management. Read over my previous posting for our relationship. Try to get the club's field trip coordinator to be a well known individual to the quarry personnel. You can see if any club collector is a relative or neighbor or teacher of quarry management. If this kind of relationship can be cultivated, then you might be in luck. If no relationships can be worked out…….well, I wish you luck. CHEERS…….BOB

21st Jun 2014 01:17 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

Having been field trip leader, club president, etc. I've given OSHA safety courses to club members. We've recognized that Federation liability insurance gets us into quarries. I called the local quarryand said that as a resident of the town, I would go to planning board meetings to speak on their behalf if we could have a field trip once a year. Field trips resumed after a 20 year hiatus. If collectors realized that they are now spending up to $100 to get to a locality, food, and staying in a motel room, then $50 extra to get into a great place is not a big stretch, albeit uncomfortable. Federation liability insurance only costs a few $ a person. Personal injury insurance could also be available to Federation Clubs. Laws such as National Treasures Acts should be exercised. Public relations are critical to get into commercial quarries. What;s in it for them? You vote! Be creative. It all takes effort. BTW One of the field trip hiati occurred when someone lost their Estwing sledge hammer at Poudrette and when it went through the crusher, the crusher broke.

21st Jun 2014 03:33 UTCHenry Barwood

Van,

One of the things that you have recommended is the major reason that quarries might be more accessible, a favorable public opinion and voters. So many times when quarries are opposed for less than rational reasons by nearby landowners, they develop a NO attitude about any access to the quarry. I have argued many times that "out of sight, out of mind" does not equate to a reasonable attitude in the general public. It often leads to visions of bubbling toxic pits filled with radioactive debris (I actually had a lady tell me that about a limestone pit once). Collectors really need to take a proactive stance with quarry management. They are, after all, your neighbors!

25th Jun 2014 19:44 UTCJames Urbaniak

I have read about and experienced some instances in which an operational mine has provided a 'dump' site in which rockhounds may dig through those piles to search for specimens. In those instances a fee has been charged to collect and a hold harmless release has been signed, as protection in the event an injury does occur. Anyone venturing outside of the specified area is then illegally trespassing. I have no expectation that all mine owners would be willing to provide such opportunities, I'm mearly suggesting and wondering if in the case of the Poudrette Quarry that all options have been pursued and exhausted, as I think the site produces some incredible natural works of art. It seems like a crying shame to reduce all of this beauty to so much rubble. Not having known the history behind the current relationship between the collector community and the mine owners, my inquiry was a probe. I understand that a mine owner, any mine owner, is going to do whatever they please and the collecting community be damned if the operation doesn't include an opportunity for them. I appreciate the elaboration on the current situation and see that the best anyone can do right now is to try to keep an open line of communication, to be polite, respectful and optimisitic that the situation will change in our favor one day (and if frogs had wings they wouldn't have to hop on their cans). This has been very informative. Thank you!

26th Jun 2014 09:55 UTCDon Swenson

In China it is illegal to export certain kinds of fossils, although erosion forces had destroyed far more that collectors could ever collect.

Rock,

It could be worse. In Lee County, Florida (home of Sanibel Island) it is illegal to collect ANY live sea shells. However, all over Florida, beach "renourishment" projects routinely destroy hundreds of thousands of live specimens. At one East Coat beach about 5 years ago dozens of people collected 5 gallon buckets of Oliva sayana specimens for weeks.

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