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Identity Helpis this red obsidian

18th Jan 2011 19:05 UTCsteve ennis

i found this when i was about 12 years old, about 41 years ago, my grandpa took me to a place in northern california, lots of black obsidian, i felt like digging down at this one spot and found this red rock,

he said keep it, i ended up putting away for all these years and recently dug it out .

18th Jan 2011 19:43 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Not obsidian, unfortunately, just synthetic glass. Nice color.

18th Jan 2011 19:48 UTCsteve ennis

i wonder what would possess a person to climb a steep mountain and bury it?

i wonder if there has been found any red ( i mean red like this) obsidian anywhere?

not doubting you, just wondering what are the signs that is manmade glass?

thanks for putting up!

18th Jan 2011 20:40 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

The clues are: 1) the "lip" that looks like the edge of a melted bottle; 2) the relatively small area of chalky surface alteration, indicating that it wasn't buried very long; 3) the quantity - If it were part of a volcanic flow, you'd expect a lot more of it; 4) the intense crimson color. You have to consider what elements are available to a volcano in its "paint pot". The only element in volcanic rock that could produce red color tones is iron, and that often gives a dullish "brick red" or brownish red color to some obsidian, but I'm very sceptical that iron could produce the red in your piece. None of these things by itself is definitive, especially when one only has a photo to look at, but overall you'd have a very hard time convincing a geologist that this is obsidian.

18th Jan 2011 21:28 UTCWayne Corwin

Alfredo

You said>> "Not obsidian, unfortunately, just synthetic glass."

I wasn't aware that glass was conidered "synthetic" LOL

Keep On Rockin'

Wayne

18th Jan 2011 21:40 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

If it's made by a homo sapiens, I consider it "synthetic". Glass made by volcanos, lightning, forest fires, meteorite impacts or other acts of god is natural. If it once had beer, liqueur or perfume in it, it was probably synthetic B)

18th Jan 2011 22:39 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Isn't an "act of god" supernatural?X(

18th Jan 2011 22:42 UTCAnonymous User

Hello, I also recently sampled some "red" obsidian from California (Glass mountain, Long valley to be more specific). Although there is some "red" obsidian, it generally appears to be more of a brown colour (as said by Alfredo Petrov). I have attached a picture for your reference. I have also attached a picture of more "red" obsidian from Torfajökull, Iceland which shows beautiful obsidian flow banding for your reference.

19th Jan 2011 00:14 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Thank you, Julie! Your brownish red obsidian from California and reddish brown-black banded one from Iceland are excellent illustrations of the typical "reds" produced by iron oxides in volcanic glass. The manmade stuff is a whole different class of red. The same goes for so-called "green" obsidian - With some imagination and optimism one can discern a greenish grey tint. But any bright red or green "obsidian" is pretty sure to be synthetic glass.

19th Jan 2011 22:27 UTCsteve ennis

thanks to all ! i guess it is just red glass, but i still can't figure why someone would spike a mountain?

i can see maybe some bozo planting it behind my back just to see my reaction and get a kick...who knows

but i can tell you when i found it nobody around but my gramps at the bottom of the hill.

joke is on me...darn that i had something for a minute, thanks again, steve

19th Jan 2011 23:08 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Steve, one possible scenario is that hunter throws away a red bottle, brushfire melts it, and erosion upslope brings material down to cover it. That possible where you were?

20th Jan 2011 00:31 UTCsteve ennis

i guess anything is possible...but

this hill/mountain had nothing at all growing on it, hunting there seems a bit odd

also it would have to one large bottle ( see size of specimen)

did any bottler make large red bottles? what on earth would be in it?

this really has me thinking how this item really got there--tektite? ( i wish huh!)

i want you all to know i really value your thoughts and opinions! thanks!

20th Jan 2011 00:37 UTCsteve ennis

same rock different pics, can you see the yellowish streaks? sorry i keep on hoping!

20th Jan 2011 01:13 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

You might be right about it being too big for a bottle, so perhaps cullet? You'd be amazed the remote locations man-made stuff shows up in! I once found some metal "nuggets" in the high Sierras that turned out to be plumbers' solder. No idea what a plumber might have been doing up there. I'm sure if we started a thread here about man-made materials found in strange places, a lot of people would chime in with some very strange stories :)

21st Jan 2011 13:51 UTCAnonymous User

Hi

I have these pieces which same yours. A friend send me few pieces from Helen-Georgia.

My friends on this site tell me: ,, just glass,,!:(

21st Jan 2011 15:41 UTCMark Gottlieb

Sometimes this sort of stuff is left around just to mess with folks. I recall an instance of spray painted plaster trilobites being left in numerous places at the Calvert Cliffs Miocene fossil site in Maryland.

15th May 2011 03:19 UTCJan Hildreth

Most of the red obsidian I've seen is called Mahogany and looks more like brown streaks. What you have doesn't look like obsidian at all. As for things people leave for others to find like a rock spray painted gold.

15th May 2011 04:09 UTCKristopher Dingfield

Yes the pictures posted of mahogany obsidian are the typical iron red obsidian that is found naturally. To lighten your feelings, I roamed the desert of west texas as a yough and found bags of "meteorites" over the years. All of which turned out to be slag. How slag got to be in such a remote desolate area I do not understand, but slag is slag. I still have a bag for memories. Unfortunatley your photos are glass. Fortunatley at least you have a memory to go with it. If you wish I can send you a small parcel of mahogany obsidian. I might even pay the shipping. No charge. I like to make arrowheads with it and have plenty laying around. In fact if you want I can send a flat rate of labled stuff I have collected along the way for free if you pay shipping. I bring in so much it needs to be weeded out anyhow. It is always a dissapointment finding out something you held for years is leaverite, or manmade in some way, but at least you have a memory with it. I would keep it for that reason alone and display it alongside my best pieces. Sorry friend if this isn't what you where hoping for. I hope at least you hold the interest and memory of your grandpa. You might even try to cut it just for keepsake.

15th May 2011 04:35 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Kristopher's observation of slag in remote desolate areas is interesting. Some collectors, considering how remote from current human activities their finds were made, are loathe to believe that they could possibly be man-made. But let's not forget that few spots are truly remote from human activities. Back in pioneer days there were lots of small-scale furnaces, operating independently from outside civilization, for such purposes as blacksmiths' local manufacture of tools and horseshoes, smelting galena for bullets, making lime for mortar, even baking bricks and pottery when the fire got too hot and melted the interior of the furnace, and other activities by prospectors, railroad builders, etc. And the wooden or adobe houses, or even tents or wagons, that those folk lived in have long since returned to dust, leaving nothing but their slag behind.

13th Sep 2016 04:19 UTCCarol Kilgore

My ex husband had this piece in his collection in Ft. Worth, TX back in the early 80's, late 70's. I can't believe these stones are glass because all of the stones shown show signs of being worked for points of some kind. After doing archaeology in the Black Hills for many years, I took a class in flint knapping in order to recognize worked stones. These all show areas that have been worked, either to sharpen the edges, or where flakes or points were taken. Whatever this is, I do no believe it is glass. Just because certain experts don't recognize it doesn't mean it isn't Orange Obsidian. Every other quality about this stone screams obsidian, from the weight and structure.

13th Sep 2016 05:49 UTCJim Allen

I bought the larger of these two "arrowheads" from the maker at a rock show in Utah in the early 1970s. As was common at rock shows, the maker was demonstrating his flint knapping skills at the show, and selling what he made. He had a supply of several colors of slag glass, including chunks identical to the material posted by Carol. In other words, it was common during the 70s to see arrowheads, knives, and similar pieces newly-made from glass.

I don't remember when I got the smaller point, but it was likely picked from a basket of modern-day arrowheads offered at a rock show during the same period. They were usually 50 cents each or sometimes four for a dollar.

Carol's and Steve's bright red material is unlike any known variety of obsidian, but it is identical to well-known slag glass. And we know that flintknappers were using slag glass to shape arrowheads and the like during the time when Carol's ex acquired the material. I can't conclude their material is anything other than manmade glass.

All the best.

Jim

13th Sep 2016 05:49 UTCVolkmar Stingl

If you believe or not, this is glass, no obsidian!

13th Sep 2016 06:14 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Artificial glass, not obsidian.

13th Sep 2016 12:16 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Agree, it's man made glass.

Far too "bright" of a colour for natural obsidian from a volcanic eruption as stated above....

13th Sep 2016 12:46 UTCErik Vercammen Expert

Artificial materials are also used to produce stone tools with the old techniques.

13th Sep 2016 14:04 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Steve and all,

My wife's family was in the mineral business back into the 40's and 50's and she told me her dad had a big table full of the multicolored slag glass. Back in the early glass making times in the US, the glass manufactures found the left over glass was sought after for decorative pieces and they often mixed all kinds of colors and then broke the cooled glass into chunks and sold it to a multitude of sellers.

One thing I recall from the pieces I have are they are nicely fluorescent and obsidian is not. Try the fluorescence on your various pieces.

Since the glass industry goes back not hundreds but thousands of years, slag glass has ended up in so many different places.

Steve, as for your question as to how a piece would end up where you found it I think people have pretty well been all over and things get lost, dropped, discarded and then nature takes its course and distributes it in many places.

I recall people picking up the tumbled glass on the beaches thinking "gems" when it was bottle glass tossed out at sea.

I have one of those pieces talked of above by Alfredo, an old piece of metal that looked exactly like a meteorite and a friend took a small piece I had cut off to a lab and it was not a meteorite. Nobody knows where it came from but it turned out to be some kind of industrial smelted material and after lying out for a long time it really resembled a meteorite.

Give the UV test a try, you might like the results.

Rolf

13th Sep 2016 14:19 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

"Just because certain experts don't recognize it doesn't mean it isn't Orange Obsidian." The question is do any experts recognize it as obsidian and if so who are these experts?

13th Sep 2016 18:30 UTCDoug Schonewald

Why does being 'worked' negate it from being slag glass? All kinds of stuff was traded to native-americans. Slag glass would have been instantly recognizable as something that could be utilized in the making of tools and weapons. Since native-americans loved bright colors trading brightly colored slag glass may have been a lucrative option, especially for frontier people who had to influence the native-americans into being friends rather than adversaries.

Even if this seems farfetched, how can you, archeologically speaking, tell this was 'worked' by native-americans and not by some European immigrant knapping tools. European immigrants knapping tools is nothing new. Here is a quote from 'A Short History of Flintknapping' : Native American Indians began Flintknapping stone tools in North America sometime before 14,000 years ago. European Americans began flintknapping in North America for the "fake" commercial market, in volume, by the late 1800’s."

14th Sep 2016 18:09 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I had read that some places native peoples lived was not rich in arrowhead making materials and when the early settlers moved West they always discarded bottles along the way. Native people found these great for making arrowheads and they gathered the bottles to use for their points.

Case in point, across from where I live is an old wagon route from the 1800's, Southern Arizona is where I live. I was walking my dogs one day and found a spot covered in old purple glass. In searching around I found all sorts of discarded stuff from a wagon that had passed this way at one time. They apparently decided it was a good place to dump 'trash". One thing that dated the spot was a piece of metal that a friend identified as a cavalry tent tightner used by the scouts from the early settler days.

Kristopher mentioned finding "meteorites" scattered in Texas. Here in Arizona we have the same old smelter slag that was used in a railroad bed running along the valley. Flash floods carried the pieces that fell into the washes for miles and people find these "meteorites" miles from any noticeable origin. I know where they came from and call them railroad meteorites. They do look just like a meteorite and I mostly now call them meteorwrongs.

I do know things get moved around by water and people over long periods and just because there is no sign of their origin, there is no way to know where they originated. The red obsidian is definitely slag glass, please try the UV and see if they glow, as I had said, the obsidian does not glow.

Rolf

27th Jan 2018 15:43 UTCNicklas Schmitt

Steve I just recently found the exact same material with an Indian cash find of preform arrowheads .an orange and yellow obsidian like stone. So far I have been told much the same as you, that it is modern man made! Well I tell you that it is not. I cant believe you have the same obsidian material, thank you ,when I am able I will post a picture . Sir I know you posted your find in 2011, I hope you get this message. Sincerley Nick

27th Jan 2018 16:09 UTCNicklas Schmitt

I have been told slag glass, ceramic, even porcelain , but given the context of where and what I found with this orange obsidian it is not likely. My find included several kinds of obsidian , and gemstones, there is abalone and shell discs . also many quart crystals including citrine , chalcedony in various kinds . I found 5 geodes , about 100 rub stones and more lots of stone chips and shards in partial arrow and spear head forms . I been panning the dirt to gather my evidences because no one believes me . I have seen 4 jewelers a lapidary , I have been to a mineral show and a club meeting . they all have the same thing to say. I present opal and also a very red type of obsidian as well . no one seems to get it . I cant wait untill the ground thaws so I can continue my search for more. Sincerely again Nick

27th Jan 2018 16:19 UTCNicklas Schmitt

By the way , I am on the east coast and I believe my site is pre European . most frustrating that every one doubts . When I am able to I will post pictures but I will tell you that the thing that attracted me to my site first was the abundance of broken and weathered stones. for the area this seemed odd , then I found nogals and geodes and crystals and arrowheads and a lot more

27th Jan 2018 17:59 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

So have you found anyone who said it is orange obsidian? If not that should be telling you something. "I believe my site is pre European" Belief is not proof of anything, you need radiocarbon dating.

27th Jan 2018 18:39 UTCNicklas Schmitt

ya I know . and a GIA certificate witch is what I am getting done . and I know my belief is not proof , that is why I am gathering all evidences I can find.I can not be absolute untill then , but it is obsidian like.. and the stone spear head is an older style biface which helps me form my diagnoses , surely not because no one has ever seen the like. sincerely

27th Jan 2018 20:45 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Welcome to Mindat, Nicklas!

Many times what one calls "obsidian" is actually colourful slag glass. I have seen this material all over that someone in more recent times has cut/knapped into arrowheads, knifes, etc. Simply googling "colorful slag glass" will give you lots of images of this material. If what you're finding is "very red obsidian", chances are it's slag. With that said, there is more than just black obsidian out there. Providing good photos of what you're finding will at least give us an idea of what these things look like and to make an educated guess....

27th Jan 2018 23:13 UTCKeith Wood

Nicklas,

If you do have a pre-European site, you are doing tremendous damage to it by digging it up yourself. Get a professional archeologist involved. To do otherwise with the belief you have about it is irresponsible.

However it sounds like a dumping ground from a past rock hound. I had one of those near my apartment. I threw all kinds of junky kyanite, ratty quartz crystals, pegmatite rocks, grossular garnet and other things down there. Whatever I was collecting at the time, the discards went down that slope.

28th Jan 2018 00:32 UTCNicklas Schmitt

ok I see and understand your point. I am very careful and am logging what I am finding . I have found that if I do not take care I will miss the smaller things like the beads and pottery shards , as well as the stone flakes . so I sift and am careful, being well aware of the archaeological value . It does seem I have found someones gathering of chalcedony , and obsidian , for there is amber , mahogany, black. and banded obsidian all found at my site. double terminated quartz crystals , lots of amethyst river stones . and many things I am curious about . So I visited several gemologists , spoke to a rock hound went to the mineral club meeting in Morris county N.J. Spoke to an forensic anthropologist , he specializes in Indian artifacts and said that my orange and yellow obsidian like material warrants further investigation,because it was out of this world . So the G.I.A IN NY i contacted . now I wait..and chat. soon I will be able to post photos, I have a new camara on its way so I can upload , for my phone is old and my computer is too though I have photo capability I am unable at this moment to transfer to my computer. so be patient and I will share my find.I ordered the camara today, it will be here on the 31st though I can send texts of my photos if you were so inclined to see quicker .sincerely.

28th Jan 2018 02:23 UTCBob Harman

It is not only irresponsible as KEITH W suggests, in most states it is STRICTLY ILLEGAL, both federally and state wise to knowingly plunder pre-European Native American sites. If you think you have found such a site, you must report it. Anyone responding here might be held responsible so I would caution responses and suggest that this thread with your name be forwarded to the appropriate federal and state agencies. They might be interested. Then you will certainly find out, one way or another, whether your finds are genuine or recent phony manmade objects. CHEERS.....BOB

28th Jan 2018 02:44 UTCMark Kucera 🌟

Nicklas,

If the mineral club meeting you are talking about was the recent Morris Museum meeting, I saw some of your finds.

The range of colors you had compares to that of the third photo posted by 'anonymous user' back on Jan 21, 2011

(hopefully attached below). It was an incredible range of colors. Certainly too wide a range to think it was naturally occurring

obsidian from a local source. There are no doubt natural obsidian colors I haven't seen or haven't been discovered yet. Yes,

we know Native Americans traded with others. But to assume that many colors were available and haven't been previously found at

other sites is really pushing probabilities. Considering some of the other artifacts you mention, I also really lean toward

thinking you found a rock hound's or lapidary dump. There is just too much range of materials to think otherwise.

I don't know the direction your interests are taking you. You're always welcome at the mineral meetings. Hearing some

of the lectures would let you know more about local (and worldwide) minerals. Attending some local shows is also

great exposure to both local and worldwide minerals. We've had a lecture by the club's amateur anthropologist on

his local Indian artifacts. I'm confident he can help you on the local use of materials he has found. He probably has

some very good reference materials and contacts. Keep asking, eventually you'll find someone that can help identify

what you found.

28th Jan 2018 04:16 UTCDoug Daniels

Natural obsidian occurs in only a few colors, none of them bright (such as red, orange, and yellow). Also, as far as I remember my geology, there are no occurences of obsidian on the east coast. Even trade with western tribes would be iffy. And, as Bob mentioned, if you are digging up an actual Native American site (even if just shards and such), you are violating Federal, and likely State, laws. Something like the Antiquities Act; construction companies hate coming across such sites, as it sets them back big time, and they have to wait while the experts work the site. Even if you are documenting what you are doing, you are doing it wrong, and should stop. My say on the subject.

28th Jan 2018 04:28 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

He's not violating the antiquities act, because this glass is modern industrial, not volcanic.

29th Jan 2018 01:22 UTCDoug Daniels

I think we all agree it is modern, not old. Was just reinforcing the idea that, if the site WAS an actual Native American site, and he was excavating it, then, yes in violation. Since it's all modern, no big deal, no violations; even so, would you want to call in the professionals?

29th Jan 2018 22:48 UTCGary Weinstein

Doug,

Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. NO bright colors, NO obsidian in the east. Even traded. They did trade as far as the Ohio flint area though usually only used the local quartzite, jasper, and argillite. This is the same as with finding meteorites. If the find is not documented by a professional then it has no verification, authentication or proof of anything. Meteorites and artifacts are not like finding quartz crystals or gold.

Gary

30th Jan 2018 04:48 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Obsidian is a rapidly chilled volcanic rock and I don't see how that geological process can create a brightly coloured material. I have never seen any obsidian in my line of work, at mineral shows, lapidary dealers or in any displays that would remotely approach the definition of "bright" colour.

30th Jan 2018 15:28 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

Greg,

I think that you have never seen any "bright colored" obsidian because there isn't any.

Don

30th Jan 2018 16:45 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Thanks Don, I rest my case. Thanks for the gneiss comment.

30th Jan 2018 16:56 UTCKevin Hean

Hi Steve,

I think, about 41 years ago a Grandpa buried a lump of red glass so that his grandson could find some buried treasure. :-)

Kevin

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