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Identity Helphighly magnetic dykes--NOT!

1st Jun 2012 12:51 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert

I have begun a new thread because the old one is indeed becoming old. My “research” on this topic stems from the numerous "Identity Help" postings by Heath Barnes relative to his findings near the coast of Yorkshire. Heath referred to his postings at historyofabeck.blogspot.com, where he shows close-up photos of the presumed volcanic rock (“basaltic andesite”) from a presumed volcanic dyke. Those photos did not seem to me to be typical dyke rock. His reports of the rock being highly magnetic also did not seem to me to represent any plausible igneous rock of which I am aware.

I then Googled variations on “magnetic basalt” and found several reports, some quite old, on magnetic iron ores in Yorkshire, in which “Rosedale magnetite mines” were referred to. I Googled that phrase, and found some professional papers on the topic, some as old as 1857-58, on the “Rosedale Ironstone.”

The Rosedale Ironstone and similar deposits in the region have been documented as mined since the 13th Century, and iron mining has been done in the area, off and on, since that time, including major efforts in the 19th Century. The iron ore is reported to contain up to 60% magnetite. It contrasts with non-magnetic granular and oolitic ironstones in the Lias beds that are widespread in the area, which contain 20-35% iron with little or no magnetite, and has generally not been profitable to mine. The Rosedale Ironstone is associated with “blue clay” containing “coal pipes.” I haven’t researched what coal pipes are (sometimes the terminology used in the mining industry is different from what I am used to), but the situation struck me as possibly conducive to reduction of iron oxides in an ironstone.

The paper I found, on about the second or third page of Google returns, only has the abstract on-line. Heath will have to find the whole article at the nearest university library or another near-by source if one is available. Here is the reference:

Young, T. P., 1994, The Bea Wyke Sandstone Formation (Jurassic, Toarcian) of Rosedale, North Yorkshie, UK: Proceedings of the Yorkshire Geological and Polytechnic Society, vol. 50, p. 129-142.

In the on-line abstract, the Rosedal Ironstone is shown to be a Member of the Blea Wyke Sandstone. It consists of “ooidal grain-ironstones” with berthierine ooids cemented by siderite. It is overlain unconformably by the Dogger Formation. The magnetitic ironstones in this part of Yorkshire developed in the Rosedale Member due to diagenetic reactions (I infer reduction in this case, but details are not presented in the abstract). The magnetitic bodies are localized, and were once thought to be channel-fills. However, this author associates them with truncated synclines that are probably roll-overs associated with extensional growth faulting. I speculate that association with the sub-Dogger unconformity may also have played a role.

I must assume for now that there is indeed a dyke at the location Heath is working, although I do not know that. If so, I suggest the magnetite is secondary at that location also, and is not directly a result of any primary mineralogy of the dyke, but rather of somewhat localized diagenetic reactions in the associated Jurassic oolitic ironstones. I do not know why the reactions would be so localized, but suggest that Young’s hypothesis is at least partly correct. I wonder if jointing or small-scale post-depositional faulting (that might have considerable vertical extent) may be also at least partly responsible.

1st Jun 2012 20:06 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Norman King Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have begun a new thread because the old one is

> indeed becoming old.

You got that right Norman!! :-S

Just so you know, coal pipes are cylindrical extensions from a coal seam into overlying rock. Your observations/theories so far seem plausible as to what is going on. Nat and I get over to Britain about every 2 or so years and 2013 is the next trip; be nice if we could see these in person to make better observations. We're always interested in seeing new and exciting geology.....

1st Jun 2012 21:55 UTCNathalie Brandes 🌟 Manager

Just to add, a common interpretation of coal pipes is that they were branches or tree stumps that were rapidly buried.

Geology by proxy is always challenging. I would be more than willing to take a side trip to look at these things next time I'm lecturing in Britain. Seeing them in person would likely clarify much.

1st Jun 2012 23:41 UTCAnonymous User

Firstly we don't do coal around here, and as for rosedale ironstone there is a good image on my blog in a post i compared how close it was to the Cleveland dyke, Norman if you have an interest in coal and iron stone and the ironstone of this area please ask as we the teeside people who are here only becouse of it, know all about it! including rosdale that was and still is as far as i know the only iron stone to attract a weak magnet! It was a revelation at the time! and you and Nathalie and paul sound like you would like to learn more so please view ( a century in stone)

As for i qoute i have to asume there is a dyke at Heaths location! Norman this statement has me puddled ? your a proffesional like Nathalie and all the proffesionals i know both in the uk and across the pond would never comment, without checking it out first?

Of course i have the dyke at my location after all i live in Cleveland the place name that is used to describe the full lenght of the dyke from north west scotland to robin hoods bay to the south east of here.

Now Norman i tried to keep this to one thread but you seem to think it will help educate people better here, well fair enough, so please explain your problems with my questions and ideas on this nice clean thread remembering your entire opening speach on this thread is now shown as a knee jerk reaction that is clearly wrong when trying to explain my findings on the magnetic properties of the Cleveland dyke.

The images show firstly a cobble made from basaltic andesite mined from the Cleveland dyke at Stainton and show a weak piece of fridge magnet stuck tight to it with a paper layer inbetween to make sure it was not some resedue making it stick.

2nd Jun 2012 00:01 UTCAnonymous User

Norman King Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have begun a new thread because the old one is

> indeed becoming old. My “research” on this

> topic stems from the numerous "Identity Help"

> postings by Heath Barnes relative to his findings

> near the coast of Yorkshire. Heath referred to his

> postings at historyofabeck.blogspot.com, where he

> shows close-up photos of the presumed volcanic

> rock (“basaltic andesite”) from a presumed

> volcanic dyke. Those photos did not seem to me to

> be typical dyke rock. His reports of the rock

> being highly magnetic also did not seem to me to

> represent any plausible igneous rock of which I am

> aware. These cobbles you are now aware of Norman so as ive found you can if you whant to learn something new everyday if you really whant to and now you know that there are as i said in earlier posts on the origional thread that the Cleveland dyke is infact highly magnetic at its south west Cleveland location, in that it atracts a weak fridge magnet, unlike any other basaltic andesite ive heard of so far.

>

> I then Googled variations on “magnetic basalt”

> and found several reports, some quite old, on

> magnetic iron ores in Yorkshire, in which

> “Rosedale magnetite mines” were referred to. I

> Googled that phrase, and found some professional

> papers on the topic, some as old as 1857-58, on

> the “Rosedale Ironstone.”

>

> The Rosedale Ironstone and similar deposits in the

> region have been documented as mined since the

> 13th Century, and iron mining has been done in the

> area, off and on, since that time, including major

> efforts in the 19th Century. The iron ore is

> reported to contain up to 60% magnetite. It

> contrasts with non-magnetic granular and oolitic

> ironstones in the Lias beds that are widespread in

> the area, which contain 20-35% iron with little or

> no magnetite, and has generally not been

> profitable to mine. The Rosedale Ironstone is

> associated with “blue clay” containing “coal

> pipes.” I haven’t researched what coal pipes

> are (sometimes the terminology used in the mining

> industry is different from what I am used to), but

> the situation struck me as possibly conducive to

> reduction of iron oxides in an ironstone.

>

> The paper I found, on about the second or third

> page of Google returns, only has the abstract

> on-line. Heath will have to find the whole article

> at the nearest university library or another

> near-by source if one is available. Here is the

> reference:

>

> Young, T. P., 1994, The Bea Wyke Sandstone

> Formation (Jurassic, Toarcian) of Rosedale, North

> Yorkshie, UK: Proceedings of the Yorkshire

> Geological and Polytechnic Society, vol. 50, p.

> 129-142.

>

> In the on-line abstract, the Rosedal Ironstone is

> shown to be a Member of the Blea Wyke Sandstone.

> It consists of “ooidal grain-ironstones” with

> berthierine ooids cemented by siderite. It is

> overlain unconformably by the Dogger Formation.

> The magnetitic ironstones in this part of

> Yorkshire developed in the Rosedale Member due to

> diagenetic reactions (I infer reduction in this

> case, but details are not presented in the

> abstract). The magnetitic bodies are localized,

> and were once thought to be channel-fills.

> However, this author associates them with

> truncated synclines that are probably roll-overs

> associated with extensional growth faulting. I

> speculate that association with the sub-Dogger

> unconformity may also have played a role.

>

> I must assume for now that there is indeed a dyke

> at the location Heath is working, although I do

> not know that. If so, I suggest the magnetite is

> secondary at that location also, and is not

> directly a result of any primary mineralogy of the

> dyke, but rather of somewhat localized diagenetic

> reactions in the associated Jurassic oolitic

> ironstones. I do not know why the reactions would

> be so localized, but suggest that Young’s

> hypothesis is at least partly correct. I wonder if

> jointing or small-scale post-depositional faulting

> (that might have considerable vertical extent) may

> be also at least partly responsible.

2nd Jun 2012 00:05 UTCAnonymous User

Hidden Teesside

Search Main menuSkip to primary contentSkip to secondary contentHomeAboutEmail UpdatesShow on Google MapSitemapSuggestions ??Sources & LinksPost navigation← Previous Next → Rosedale West Magnetic Quarry and Hollins Ironstone Mines

Posted on March 15, 2011 by chris.twigg Show on map

This site started as a surface quarry then later an underground mine. It consists of two deposits of very high quality ironstone. Little remains except two large troughs where the stone has been removed. The northerly one at the base of the incline to the kilns at Rosedale Chimney is known as Kitchings Deposit

Slightly further south is Garbutts Deposit

The stone has such a high iron content (approaching 50%) that its actually magnetic, although nothing similar was ever found elsewhere

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This entry was posted in Ironstone by chris.twigg. Bookmark the permalink. One thought on “Rosedale West Magnetic Quarry and Hollins Ironstone Mines” Heath Barnes on March 1, 2012 at 12:18 am said:

Please visit my blog and you will see we have certain interests in common and may well be able to help each other?

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Hidden Teesside

Search Main menuSkip to primary contentSkip to secondary contentHomeAboutEmail UpdatesShow on Google MapSitemapSuggestions ??Sources & LinksPost navigation← Previous Next → Rosedale West Magnetic Quarry and Hollins Ironstone Mines

Posted on March 15, 2011 by chris.twigg Show on map

This site started as a surface quarry then later an underground mine. It consists of two deposits of very high quality ironstone. Little remains except two large troughs where the stone has been removed. The northerly one at the base of the incline to the kilns at Rosedale Chimney is known as Kitchings Deposit

Slightly further south is Garbutts Deposit

The stone has such a high iron content (approaching 50%) that its actually magnetic, although nothing similar was ever found elsewhere

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Proudly powered by WordPress Send to Email Address Your Name Your Email Address Cancel Post was not sent - check your email addresses! Email check failed, please try again Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email.

2nd Jun 2012 00:13 UTCAnonymous User

This is the image available on my blog that ime sorry as ive said before is used as a note book for my own uses not as a please tell me ime a great person !

2nd Jun 2012 00:17 UTCAnonymous User

Nathalie Brandes Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Just to add, a common interpretation of coal pipes

> is that they were branches or tree stumps that

> were rapidly buried.

> Geology by proxy is always challenging. I would be

> more than willing to take a side trip to look at

> these things next time I'm lecturing in Britain.

> Seeing them in person would likely clarify much.

Nathalie i would be more than happy to show you around the area you would need to be in to view this interest but ime sorry its not around here.

2nd Jun 2012 00:29 UTCAnonymous User

Ps Norman, Natalie, Paul, i for the most part again as stated in my blog ive mainly excavate the deposits above mercia mudstone, not jurassic bed rock ! I hope other forum members are now realising that some people are reacting to my posts without properly reading the work that has whent into the final records on my blog.

2nd Jun 2012 00:39 UTCAnonymous User

Ps Norman i feel ime in the right to ask you for an explanation as to why you seemed so unwilling to in your own words believe that a basaltic dyke would not atract a weak fridge magnet please explain with paul and natalies help why ime able to show that your wrong? remember you have all just jumped into the same pit in this better thread, for all to see! and for all to see your all well wide of the mark!

2nd Jun 2012 00:42 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert

Yes, Heath, I know how unusual this ironstone is. It has been altered (reduced) so it is now magnetite.

My research found that some Rosedale deposits contain up to 60% magnetite; 50% is not the maximum reported. I am sure this is not uncommon, and I have specimens of bog ironstone from Indiana that are magnetic. So, it is not true that nothing like it has ever been found elsewhere.

What I meant about the dyke is that I will accept that there is indeed a dyke there. I did not mean to imply in anything I said that you are wrong about that. I am sorry that I “puddled” you. Then I went on to say that it is not likely anything inherent in the dyke itself that produces the magnetism, and presented my arguments for that opinion. That is what we have been urging you to do, because it is how science works. So, we now have an answer to the mystery of the “magnetic dyke." I explained your other “mysteries,” and I also documented the reasons for my opinions on those.

With this, it is clear that I cannot help you any more. Good luck with your work.

* * * *

New comment I added with this edit: You are adding comments so fast I cannot keep up. I just explained why I have a problem with your magnetic dyke. I will not be responding to anything more you write. I have a lot of other things to do. Sorry.

2nd Jun 2012 03:51 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Norman, you have been doing very well, considering the difficult of assessing the detailed geology of a very specific part of the world we are not very familiar with, with limited access to literature. Heath may need to spend some time with the British Geol Survey, studying their maps and reports and picking their brains.

2nd Jun 2012 07:49 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert

Norman,

Your attempts to help Heath have been most gracious and patient. A huge wealth of information covering everything you have found (regarding the ironstone, Cleveland Dyke, glacial deposits and NE England geology in general) is available to Heath in local guides, popular literature, scientific journals and on-line websites. If he has "3 geologists" helping him, they will certainly have access to plenty of relevant reading material. We have local geological and mineralogical groups available. What we don't have are endless hours to spend fighting windmills. After 148 posts here (in less than a month) and nearly 400 on the "discuss fossils" UK website, I also feel that Heath needs to stop, read the recent literature, and set out clearly the questions he has (as Paul suggested). He also needs to answer all questions asked of him.

What has saddened me is this - North Sea Pleistocene fossils (more accurately, mineralized sub-fossils) are relatively common (being dredged up by trawlers), but on-shore sites are not. Heath would do very well to gather his fossils, label them accurately, and take them to one of several local museums. They need preservation, and would contribute greatly to local collections if he chose to donate or lend any. Instead of trying to re-invent the wheel (and being rejected for his approach), Heath could be known as the local man who discovered wonderful Pleistocene remains.

And to Heath - best of luck, and all good wishes. If there are future photos of specific rocks or minerals, I'll try to help. But no more of this.

Becky

2nd Jun 2012 21:03 UTCAnonymous User

No mention there about Normans thread, and statement in producing it highly magnetic dykes NOT! and sorry but if i had not responded to your claims Norman it would have wrongly looked to any observer that i had not already researched the magnetic quallities of rosedale iron stone, and that i was at an educated level as to not recognise the difference between iron stone and basaltic andesite.

Ime sorry if my aproach seems wrong and for some reason upsets certain people but ime looking for answers not a pat on the back, i sincerely do not try to insult people i just tell it as i see it as we say on teeside.

And Becky north sea fossils do indeed need preserving this is becouse of the sea water envioroment they were preserved and they need a pva solution quite quickly but mineralised bones from inland locations don't need this level of protection.

And lastly most forums have some very educated people on board but sadly i have found also have more than there fair share of what i call Wicki experts, who imedietly try to destroy what they do not understand, and these people ive found don't understand a lot!

2nd Jun 2012 21:31 UTCAnonymous User

Fig. 14. Generalised extent of glacial Lake Tees, glacial Lake Pickering, and glacial lakes in the North York Moors during MIS 2. The ice margin impounding lakes in the Vale of Pickering and within the North York Moors is the maximum extent of the Late Devensian ice sheet. The configuration of the British Ice Sheet during emplacement of the laminated sediments in the lower Tees Basin is uncertain, and is tentatively placed adjacent to the present-day coastline. Glacial Lake Tees is delimited from a shoreline mapped at 25 m OD, dashed lines denoting uncertainty. Contours are shown at 50 m, 100 m, and at 100 m intervals thereafter. Adapted from Kendall (1902), and Agar (1954).

The attached file shows the central water body ( now known as the esk valley) that i believe was responsible after release for creating the deposits ime now excavating, and i also believe this was not a deluge, but instead would have been a period of flash flooding then drier periods.

But as i am well aware ime in no way educated to a level high enough to be sure of my idea's

3rd Jun 2012 19:42 UTCClaire Brimson

I don't know if this would help, but please try this link regarding Rosedale East Iron Mine

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Rosedale-East-Iron-Mine/Microsoft-Word-Document3.pdf

I hope you can enter it.

Here is another link to Rosedale West Iron Mine

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/album/Rosedale-West-Iron-Mine-User-Album/

I also hope you can enter this link.

I have good friends who go underground in this area, They may not be geologists, but they certainly know the mining area.

Heath - maybe you should try NAHMO (not sure if thats correct way round) - its a national mine heritage and information group - they would help you on the geology as well.

3rd Jun 2012 20:28 UTCAnonymous User

Thanks for that Claire and i will look into it as i find it interesting that i seem to have stumbled upon a section of the dyke where the iron content seems to be a lot higher than previously thought, and we are very close to the Rosedale iron stone deposits, although i imagine there is no geological reason to link these two totally different deposits, its still a hell of a coincidence. All the best Heath.

11th Jun 2012 17:50 UTCClaire Brimson

Hi Heath

Did you manage to contact NAHMO or look at the links I sent you?

Regards

Claire

11th Jun 2012 19:58 UTCAnonymous User

Hi Clare not yet sorry but i will, we have a mining museum at skiningrove, iive informed them and the riggs group are very into the local mining history but as ive said they found what i found no records of the magnetism of the basaltic andesite of the Cleveland dyke nor the gravel bed and layers above and below, in the south west of Cleveland. Cheers Heath.

12th Jun 2012 06:49 UTCClaire Brimson

Heath.

A good friend of mine tells me that magntitie, magnetic rock of varying types is very common in your area that you are digging in. Years ago, it was thought the devil lived there due to the amount of lightening strikes, metal objects going missing etc. If you post on aditnow, he will probably get back to you, along with NAHMO. Maybe you do not want though.... Also, have you tried the North East Yorkshire Geological Socitey? Their leaflet is also interestint and they would help you as well. I have spoken to someone about all this and they assure me they do know about the magnetic rocks etc.

12th Jun 2012 23:38 UTCAnonymous User

Would you please ask them where they first discovered weak none rare earth magnets were attatched to these dyke locations and why there are no reports about, it and why the riggs group in this and other areas no nothing of these findings ? ps maybee they have also found the latest 2 different minerals in the gravel beds that have just tonight shown the same attraction to the same many different magnets, ps please remember ime the only person to have excavated the Stainton gravel beds in the area that is the south west area of Cleveland.

13th Jun 2012 00:13 UTCAnonymous User

Also ime sorry i did not mention this earlier but got distracted don't know why !? but the basaltic andesite ive looked at and attatched all kind of magnets to also deflects a compass on average 20 to 80 degrees. about the same as iron based industrial metals.

13th Jun 2012 06:40 UTCClaire Brimson

Magnetic mines which produced the highest grade iron-ore and discovered to be magnetic in the early 1800's. Taken from the North East Yorkshire Geological Trust.

13th Jun 2012 09:06 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. I think you'll all agree this has gone on long enough now. If Heath wants to know more about his magnetic rock material, he should get some professionally analysed. Petrological identifications without accurate scientific data are not something we can do remotely.

At best, we're just guessing, the speculation I've seen here doesn't really help at all. Please do not open new threads related to these magnetic rocks on this site. Thank you.

Jolyon

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