Amber purchased from a museum

Hey Guys and Gals,

I was commissioned to sell this piece on my website by a lady who has been in the crystal biz for over 30 years. She said she purchased it from a museum a long time ago. She has had it in her shop for over 15 years with an asking price of $2900.00.

There is really no information other than she purchased it from a lady she knew who had a museum. It appears not to be carved, but rather poured and then sealed maybe? There is a bug in it (yeah, I know, i know........)

It is a big piece It weighs 272.155 grams and measures 3.25" x 3.25" It stands 2.5" tall.

I am not going to sell it unless I am sure it is amber. I am scared to do the heated needle trick since it is so expensive. I am not sure if it would float in water since it appears to be sealed? there are some mists/veils which leads me to believe it is real, but this is my rep on the line so not going to sell unless I am 100% sure.

Now, a man visited their shop a couple of months ago and shared that he had been a collector for a long long time. He said he had only seen something of this quality once before. He also told the owners that they should be asking upwards of $3800.00.

what are your thoughts? If I do get the nerve up to stick a heated needle in it and it does have some kind of sealant on it.......will I still smell the woodsy sweet scent?

thanks for any help you can give me.

Mira

I guess my question is.........can amber weigh 272+ grams and how much water and salt should i use to accurately see if it floats? It is a pretty big piece, so I was thinking a gallon of water and 40 tablespoons of salt. But what kind of salt? Sea salt? Kosher salt? table Salt?

I really do not want to go on word alone.........can anyone help???

Mira, a 272 gram transparent amber piece is certainly large and valuable, but not unheard of; there are pieces weighing several kilograms.

The hot needle test you refer to could be done on the base of the piece without detracting from its aesthetics at all, a very tiny pin prick, the best way to distinguish at home the difference between plastic and amber.

The saltwater test just uses salt to increase the density of the water a bit, to about 1.2 instead of the usual 1.0. Amber floats in the heavier saltwater but sinks in the pure water. Doesn't matter what kind of edible salt you use, sea, kosher, mined, regular supermarket table salt, whatever. But I wouldn't waste the salt to do this test because it won't help you to distinguish amber from its most common cheap substitute: "copal" (basically dried tree resin, and just tens of years old, not the tens of thousands claimed by the sellers), nor from "pressed" or "reconstituted" amber (where lots of little bits of amber are semi-melted together to make a big piece).

The best way to distinguish real amber from the young resins like "copal" is with an organic solvent like acetone or gasoline: hold the piece upside down, put a drop on the base, and see whether it makes a sticky spot. Sticky is bad.

I don't have any easy suggestions for distinguishing a real large single piece of amber from pressed or reconstituted amber - Really needs a gemmologist with relevant amber experience.

thanks! now, when I do the pin prick, what am I looking for? will it make a big enough impact to smell the amber or?
I think I read if it turns black that is bad, right? or could that be the soot from the pin or needle? LOL this is quite overwhelming but I do want to make sure what I have is what it was said to be :)

thanks again!!

A hot pin point will cause amber and its younger cousin to smoke. The smell of the smoke is what will give you a good idea of what you have. If it smells like plastic, then you have a synthetic substance. To tell the difference between amber and copal by smell, you should get a piece of real known amber and a piece of copal and then experiment with a hot needle point on them till you are confident you can smell the difference. Then will be the time to test your carving. I personally have never seen a natural piece of amber as clear and transparent as the one your Buddha has been made from. I would suspect at the very least it has been made from reconstituted material.

Rock Currier
Crystals not pistols.

Thanks! yeah, I think it was poured and then sealed. Then there is the whole bug thing......(it has a flying insect inside). There is a little area of mists/veils. How long do I heat up the needle? I did it once but did not really get any smoke.......

and if it has been sealed........will it even do the smoke thing??

Question.......would a reconstituted piece w/flying insect be worth $2900.00??



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2012 02:08AM by Mira Bai.

You also might consider using the flying insect as a reference for age of the amber......recent (plastic or phony) vs an ancient species as genuine. Firstly is the insect "too perfect" in that it is a current species that was carefully placed inside a recent man created object or is it "genuine looking" in that it naturally flew onto sticky amber and got stuck millions of years ago. You also might have an entomologist evaluate the species........is it a current living species or does it correspond with any known extinct species known from other amber pieces. CHEERS.........BOB

Mira,
I've not done it, but i expect you've seen plastic melt, I'm under the impression it would be pretty obvious if it fake.
I would think another drawback is not knowing much about it would really hurt the value. Which museum? A noteworthy one? How long on display?
I would want more history if i ever spent that kind of cash.
There would be very little soot on a hot needle, Try it on some junk plastic, just to get a feel for what you're doing...

Hey Mike,
thanks!

Yeah, I did the needle test (held it over a flame til it turned red) and while there was no smoke, there was a sweet smell to it.
I did press the owner of the piece (she is 74) and all she could remember is that her husband purchased it from a lady they knew who worked at the museum that was closing down. She can't remember the name of the museum, only that it was in Olympia, WA. I am currently looking to see if I can find any information on museums that closed down, located in Olympia some 15 to 20 years ago.

I agree. I am not comfortable selling it for them because frankly, there is just not enough verification of the piece. No certification, no certificate of authenticity, just a memory. I think they are basing all of their information on the fact that some customer came in one day, told them he was an expert in Amber and that they had this piece priced way too low. Of course, they did not think to ask him for any credentials--they trust everyone :)

Plus, I certainly do not want to ruin my reputation :) If I am not 100% sure that this is true Amber and can find more information, I simply will back out of the deal. :)

I sure do appreciate all the feedback!! This is most helpful!!

PS Bob......the insect looks similar to one you would see on your car windshield after it hit :) Its legs are a bit crumpled. it looks like maybe a mosquito or some such flying gnat thing :)

Hi Mira,

I agree with Rock. This is a very large clear piece of amber, most probably not Baltic. If I would venture a guess I would say Dominican or Mexican if true amber. Dominican has many more visible inclusions and can sometimes have a blue tint in sunlight if the exterior has not oxidized . Are there any spangles when checked with a loupe? These would appear as tiny discs from being treated with rapeseed oil to improve clarity which is often done with Baltic amber. From the photo there does not appear to be any spangles that are obvious. Also check for bubbles, a sign of pressed amber. Cretaceous amber may be sealed to preserve it as it is much older and can be brittle, but I doubt this is a piece of cretaceous amber so large, cretaceous amber is much less common as it is from approx 65-140 million years ago (mya). Domincan amber is not cretaceous but rather from Oligocene to Miocene, approximately 25-30 mya.

The line about the man visiting the shop to me is just a sales pitch, how much did the man really know about amber? And was there really a man who visited the store? But who knows?

There are so many treatments that can be done with amber even if your smoke test was valid it does not rule out some type of enhancement, such as pressed amber, reconstituted amber, heating with rapeseed oil, etc. Just because it was in a museum does not prove anything.
As far as insects go, getting an entomologist to identify the species/timeline would go far but perhaps could take to much time to verify.
My suspicion is that the piece has been helped in some way, it looks way too perfect. But then again, it might be a truly rare piece... but what do you think the odds are??? It is a Buddha after all, probably "carved" or "poured" as you suggested, in China.

As for the price? Good question. My guess is unless the bug turns out to be authentic to the more likely Miocene age amber, then you are looking at a much lesser value.

Good luck with your quest for the truth.
regards,
stephanie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/2012 03:32AM by Stephanie Martin.

thanks Stephanie! and Rock! and Bob! and Mike! and Alfredo!

Just for fun, I attached a pic of the flying insect and to my surprise, there are TWO, not just one :)
I also attached a pic of what i was calling a mist/veil but to be honest, do not know what it is. It is loosely triangular in shape right around Buddha's belly :)

thanks again!! I am learning so much!!!!!!!!!

Hello Alfredo,

you are right, there exist amber pieces with a weight of several kgs. This one has more than 20 kg and was found in Borneo. It is now part of the amber collection of the Naturkundemuseum in Stuttgart.
[www.mindat.org]

regards
Joachim

There are also large Baltic ambers. Few years ago I visited Palanga amber museum in Lithuania, there was a piece weighting 3.5 kilograms.

The amazing clarity of the piece for the size would make it truly exceptional if it were authentic amber. The larger pieces as above tend not to be of high clarity.

In your photo the one flying bug has very long legs such as a fungas gnat, reminiscent of what I have seen in Dominican amber, however this would need to be ascertained by a entomologist / specialist with amber as there are so many insects such as gnats, flies, midges, etc and all are specific to the locale and age and would need to be confirmed. It does appear to be in a natural pose rather than arranged as fakes can be. It is unfortunate that there is no provenance with this piece and as such this could have made it worth much more if the history and details could be verified.

With any luck you might be able to get more info if you can track down that museum and perhaps any records that might still be available.

regards,
stephanie

thanks Stephanie!! you are fast becoming my heroine :) The owner is going back in old records to see if there is anything. She said she would ask other folks who were around at that time to see if they remember anything. This has now officially become my quest! LOL


thanks again,
Mira

Surely the Seattle locals can remember if there was a closing museum in Olympia 15-20 years ago.

Yup! i have sent out several emails and am googling my little fat fingers off :) LOL

Amber is always a risk. If you wan to be sure you really need to take it to a professional. There is however a few ways to test it:
Copal is much lighter in colour and is much more of a yellowish to a sort of dull clear lemon colour.
Composites are rarely very convincing, if there is lines of very small bubbles in the sample then it is most likely a composite and this would of course reduce its value greatly.
If the insect looks like it is in a "nice" pose then it is almost certainly a fake/artificial, insects do not die in nice poses :)
If you think it has been melted and poured then i would say the price is a bit high. Natural "as found" amber rarely even fetches half of that and there is many people competing for the best specimens.
Hope this helps a bit

Hallo Mira,
Did you check fluorescence under UV? Dominican amber usually fluoresce in yellow under LW UV, with some zones brighter than others. I don't know what about amber from others origins. Just a thought...

Josele