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Identity HelpWilliamsite ID

25th Dec 2006 18:44 UTCFred Kelso

The attached photo shows 4 specimens of serpentine I have collected from southern Chester County, Pennsylvania, and I'm wondering if they can be identified as Williamsite. They are all apple green with small chromite inclusions and have a waxy luster. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas!

25th Dec 2006 18:49 UTCFred Kelso

Not sure if the photo got attached to my original post...

25th Dec 2006 18:52 UTCFred Kelso

One more try, after some re-sizing. The specimens will scratch a penny but not glass...

25th Dec 2006 19:22 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

It's impossible to distinguish between the different species of the serpentine group without X-ray diffraction analysis (williamsite is only a synonym of antigorite, by the way).

26th Dec 2006 01:40 UTCFred Kelso

Hi Uwe:

Thanks for your note. I've come to understand that williamsite is actually a variant of antigorite - a massive form tending towards apple green translucent colors and sought after for lapidary work. I'm hoping that someone who has used such material can tell me if it looks like my specimens.

26th Dec 2006 17:16 UTCMRH

Fred,

Williamsite is a term "properly" used for translucent to semi-transucent apple to emerald green "nobel" or "precious" serpentine. See Serpentine here on mindat, my pic of an "actual" Williamsite specimen, collected my John Sinkaras in the 1950's is pictured on the main page (the I.D. on charles' specimen, pictured on the "Williamsite" page is questionable, at least from what I can see in the pic).

What you have there (I assume from West Nottingham township, Chester Co.?), would likely qualify for "nobel" or "precious" serpentine (dependant on how well it works), but not Williamsite. Actually looks a lot like the nobel serpentine from Easton/Chesnut hill area (neat stuff, I like it!).

BTW as Uwe mentions, these are really just "lapers" terms, rather than strictly scientific ones (and why my "Williamsite" is posted to the Serpentine page, rather than the "Williamsite" page). I can understand any confusion with these fairly loose I.D. guidelines used in the gem/lappers trade, especially as you'll find these boundries are often crossed or very ill applied by lappers themselves, especially when someone wants more for a piece than it's actually worth (very confusing).

MRH

26th Dec 2006 19:38 UTCFred Kelso

Thanks MRH. I appreciate you pointing out that nice example photo from the Line Pit, and I think I'm starting to get the idea.

My kids and I pick up specimens from lots of byways, rather than the quarries themselves, so I can't pinpoint origins of any of them. We may try getting some smaller pieces to tumble and see what comes out.

I am very interested in the history of quarrying in this area, and have just copied a lot of newspaper clippings from West Nottingham Twp. from the 1850's through the 1890's re: serpentine, chromite, feldspar, and a few other things.

26th Dec 2006 19:52 UTCD Sprouse

Your samples look more like the noble serpentine to me also. I have a faceted williamsite I will post a pic of as soon as possible. The material we Maryland locals call williamsite is darker green and almost but not quite transparent. The piece I have could be mistaken for emerald with chromite inclusions except for the hardness. It is nearly impossible to get anymore.

27th Dec 2006 04:53 UTCMRH

Dear Fred,

D Sprouse expresses what I've heard from most "hunters" as well, the areas are pretty much picked clean of Wiliamsite quality material, but always worth looking for I suppose! This sea foam "precious" material was primarily used for larger decorative use I. E. "Objects du Art". It's faily opaic and not particularly impressive for small use, as in jewlery, but I've seen it used as inkwell holders and pedistals etc. It's a really a neat color, looks great married with brass or silver decorative pieces/trimmings.

Good hunting down the clippings From Nottingham! I've done the same at Chester Co. Historical Society, for mineral/mines dating back to 1827, but it contained no articles pertaining to Nottingham area! There is a group of folks connected with Nottingham Park (which was the original site of Scott's Chromite mine/pits), which have assembled some records on the areas site ownership and mine activity records, etc. but unfortunately many records are as yet undiscovered, or may no longer exist. Much of the detailed info is gleened from the legal wranglings between Chromite developer Issac Tyson and the workings at Scotts Chrome Mine.

You should be able to track these folks down on the web (they have a general call out looking for folks who may have additional information to offer on the area), and I'm sure they'd be happy to offer up a copy of whatever info they have already amassed on the subject.

Specimens from these old workings are also few and far between. I managed to acquire an old 19th C.labeled Nickle-Gymite on Chromite with minor Clinochlore var. Pennite from one of the Townships old workings (likely collected while still in operation or soon afterwards). Apart from a Chromite with minor chromium "sepentinite" collected from the quarry which was still open near the park in the 50's, that's all I've ever came across from there, as far as proper mineral specimens are concerned!

MRH

27th Dec 2006 13:27 UTCFred Kelso

Thanks for the additional notes Mark. I have now discovered your mindat gallery and I feel confortable that your images are accurate, so I appreciate this wonderful photographic resource that you have shared.

The clippings I found were indeed also from the Chester Co Hist Soc, in the West Nottingham Township files, under "Township History". I found quite a few items on the Moro Phillips Chrome Mine, the Martin & Dunlap Serpentine Quarries, the Hilaman chromite mine, and of course the Tyson properties. I had previously collected property records from Cecil Co., MD for Johnny Johnsson regarding Tyson properties there.

I would be happy to share the clippings with anyone who is interested, I just need to get them assembled and scanned. There are notes about engines in the mines, labor strikes, associated minerals, disasters, etc.

28th Dec 2006 14:48 UTCD Sprouse

Attached are a couple pictures of Pennsylvania Williamsite from southwestern Lancaster County, PA, right on the Maryland State line west of Conowingo. The transparency is visible in the photo of the emerald cut stone I'm holding.

28th Dec 2006 14:49 UTCD Sprouse

Second picture

29th Dec 2006 03:59 UTCFred Kelso

Thanks for the pix. I may have found something similar today, although I'm not sure how "sound" the 2 pieces are. I'll try to post backlit shots tomorrow.

29th Dec 2006 04:51 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Fred

The bit about "structurally competent" has to do with grading materials for lapidary purposes. You can find small pieces of antigorite that are quite transluscent but simply too small to do anything with. I've got a couple of flats of antigorite that looks great back-lit - except that it is so shot full of fractures that all a lapidary artisan could get out of a ten pound chunk might be one piece big enough to make a cab or something of similar size out of. In order for a lapidary artisan to be able to work the material he/she has to be able to get a good number of reasonably sized solid slices out of a chunk of rough in order to make it worthwhile. An old buddy of mine that collected with me at the site where the antigorite came from brought home one or two chunks that he thought he might be able to do something with in his lap shop - and it turned out he got only two marginally descent slabs out of the carefully hand picked stuff he brought home. The rest crumbled in the saw. In his judgement, the site did not provide lapidary quality material, and therefore it should not be called "precious serpentine." So I have never called it that.

So when you start slapping lapidary names on things, it is a good idea to make sure that the stuff is truly lapidary grade/quality material first. Else you'll have a lot of angry lapidary folk knocking on your door wanting to know why you sent them on a wild goose chase.

So, please, be careful about calling the materials you are finding either "williamsite" or "precious serpentine." Is it really lapidary-worthy stuff? Or not? If not, then just call it plain old antigorite (or whatever the species may be.)

KOR!

Alan

29th Dec 2006 05:16 UTCFred Kelso

Okay. What I found today is nicely translucent, but small and full of cracks. I believe I'm on the trail, and I found lots of other cool stuff on my walk today, so I won't feel too bad. Thanks Alan.

29th Dec 2006 16:58 UTCD Sprouse

Cedar Hill Quarry in Cecil County MD has produced some gemmy serpentine and williamsite. Sometimes you can find the minerals from there in local walls, driveways, road backfills, etc.

It is less than 20 minutes from Nottingham.

Just south of there and to the west, the old quarry and areas around Delta, PA produced more gemmy serpentines.

29th Dec 2006 18:33 UTCFred Kelso

Thanks for the tip. I work in Cecil County, can you tell me where the quarry is? I've seen reference to another quarry by that name in Fulton Twp., Lancaster County.

29th Dec 2006 19:30 UTCD Sprouse

The Cedar Hill Quarry is off US 222 between the Buck in PA and the Maryland State Line. It is a mile or two from the famous State Line pits, which produced probably the best of the williamsite. It is private property. However, there is a LOT of serpentinized rock in the area, somebody will more than likely let you look around nearby.

Delta, PA only has a few roads going through it. If you go to the post office, the quarry is nearby off Quarry Road. It too is private, but there are rocks literally lying along the sides of the roads in the area. An old slate quarry is on the uphill side of Delta. Gold has been found in local streams, but I've never looked for any there.

29th Dec 2006 19:57 UTCMRH

Satellite imagery. A Huge Quarry, predominately in Pennsylvania.

MRH

29th Dec 2006 20:03 UTCD Sprouse

Yup those satellites are cool. I don't think they allow collecting at the Cedar Hill Quarry at all, though. I haven't been there since before fire was invented.

29th Dec 2006 20:11 UTCMRH

Collecting By Club/Groups ONLY, by appointment (no individuals). But yes, so far as I've last heard, they are still open to the idea of collectors on the property.

MRH

30th Dec 2006 12:36 UTCFred Kelso

Thanks all, for the additional info and map/satellite image.

27th Jun 2012 15:24 UTCBill Feeley

I have so much Serpentine from this locality since it began my interest in rock collecting that I am still finding containers of it. I just found one tucked away in a corner of my fiancee's room and was amazed when I went through it at the variety of trnslucent pieces I found. Some are straight clear under a light bulb, others not so much until under the sun or an LED flashlight, but they're all different to the naked eye. I found some pale greyish green material that is visibly clear and I am not sure what it is. any thoughts? It doesn't look like serpentine, more like a milky greenish quartz, but it's definitely softer, no sharp edges on anything I've found (Just 2 pieces so far), but I was just beginning and was looking for Serpentine specifically.

27th Apr 2013 20:32 UTCKenneth Zahn

A bit of personal history on my own love affair with williamsite:

As a friend of the landowner during the early-1980s, I collected pieces of the translucent emerald-green williamsite at the Line Pit property just inside the Maryland side of the MD/PA state line -- (Isaac Tyson, Jr's primary chromite mine in the mid-1800s, though first mined by Lowe before 1838 on the Pennsylvania side of the border). Lowe's Pit is apparently connected to the Line Pit shaft 60 feet away (at a depth of 92 feet) by a southeasterly trending inclined shaft. The massive chromite podiform ore-body was said to have been sheathed in a thin shell of the attached williamsite, which then graded into the common serpentine host rock around the ore body.

I had seen my first fingernail-sized piece of beautiful green williamsite imbedded in fresh asphalt paving in a new parking lot on Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, as I stepped out of my car on a torrid day in the summer of 1981. After prying the tiny piece out with a key (the asphalt was warm and soft), I asked around over several months and was told that it was a prized local Maryland material -- williamsite -- probably from crushed serpentine rock from Cedar Hill quarry. I was hooked! Soon I had purchased copies of the more prominent references to chromite deposits in Maryland and Pennsylvania and decided to search for the Line Pit deposit, as many of the mineral clubs in the MD/PA had collected there in the '50s - '70s. The day I first visited in winter 1981, I did spot a nice piece under a half-inch of ice on the entrance path. The wetted piece I chipped from the iced-over puddle was beautiful emerald green and has been in my display case ever since. I was also met from behind by the shotgun of the landowner who had seen my car parked just off the road nearby and came to find me. As there were no "No Trespassing" signs posted in the brushy thicket around the path area at that time, the owner gave me a reprieve and I was careful to seek permission during the following 4 years of collecting trips. The material was hard to find as almost all the mine dump had been hauled off for road ballast -- apparently in the '50s or a bit later -- and grasses, trees, briars, and poison ivy had long-since taken over. The area is no longer accessible.

By almost unbelievable coincidence, besides finding the correct mine on that first trip, and surviving a shotgun challenge as I picked up my first piece of williamsite, I also purchased a Baltimore-published 1839 copy of "Josephus" at a flea market in the area on the way home late that afternoon; inside the cover was an inscription presenting the copy to Jesse Tyson, then age 18, from his father Isaac Tyson, Jr., in "Cold Stream," MD (NE Baltimore) in 1844. I had found the mine, found nice williamsite, gained collecting permission, and found the famous owner's (Isaac Tyson Jr.'s) 1844 gift copy of Josephus to his son Jesse -- all on one wintry-afternoon's exploration trip.

One of my best smaller "show-and-tell" williamsite pieces was in my pocket when I attended the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show in the late '80s. It passed across the counter to the hand of an Asian mineral dealer, who soon passed it to a carver in Taiwan, who then passed it back to me in a simple padded mailer envelope 2 months later, with a bill for $40 for having carved it. That carved piece (5 x 4 x 3 cm) -- with its gnarled pine tree, cranes, and mountain side -- is one of my most-treasured mineral specimens. I can't attach the specimen's photo here as it is currently a much larger JPG file than the 1 MB MINDAT limit; I'll see if I can reduce that size and append it later. Trust me -- the translucency and color are stunning, and the identification of the piece as serpentinite/antigorite, var. williamsite, fools almost everyone even though I left a spot of attached chromite on the bottom as a clue. There is no fibrous nature or "undercutting" with this piece (and most of my other pieces), as is common with more-typical antigorite samples from other chromite deposits in the State Line area.

You can imagine my total shock and disdain when I learned years later that someone had managed to bamboozle the Maryland legislature into changing the experts'-consensus designation of "Maryland's gemstone" from the beautiful and unique williamsite to a drab river rock that looks more like a non-descript jasper. What a tragedy, as this photo of what I consider to be Maryland's TRUE gemstone -- williamsite -- clearly shows.

-------------------------------------------------------

27th Apr 2013 20:41 UTCKenneth Zahn

Sorry for the duplicate message posting.

23rd Jun 2013 07:32 UTCKenneth Zahn

A bit of personal history on my own love affair with williamsite:

As a friend of the landowner during the mid-1980's, I collected pieces of the translucent emerald-green williamsite at the Line Pit property just inside the Maryland side of the MD/PA state line -- (Isaac Tyson, Jr's primary chromite mine in the mid-1800s, though first mined by Lowe before 1838 on the Pennsylvania side of the border). Lowe's Pit is apparently connected to the Line Pit shaft 60 feet away (at a depth of 92 feet) by a southeasterly trending inclined shaft. The massive chromite podiform ore-body was said to have been sheathed in a thin shell of the williamsite, which then graded into the common serpentine host rock around the ore body.

I had seen my first fingernail-sized piece of beautiful green williamsite imbedded in fresh asphalt paving in a new parking lot on Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, as I stepped out of my car on a torrid day in the summer of 1981. After prying the tiny piece out with a key (the asphalt was warm and soft), I asked around over several months and was told that it was a prized local Maryland material -- williamsite -- probably from crushed serpentine rock from Cedar Hill quarry. I was hooked! Soon I had purchased copies of the more prominent references to chromite deposits in Maryland and Pennsylvania and decided to search for the Line Pit deposit, as many of the mineral clubs in the MD/PA had collected there in the '50s - '70s. The day I first visited in winter 1981, I did spot a nice piece under a half-inch of ice on the entrance path. The wetted piece I chipped from the iced-over puddle was beautiful emerald green and has been in my display case ever since. I was also met from behind by the shotgun of the landowner who had seen my car parked just off the road nearby and came to find me. As there were no "No Trespassing" signs posted in the brushy thicket around the path area at that time, the owner gave me a reprieve and I was careful to seek permission during the following 4 years of collecting trips. The material was hard to find as almost all the mine dump had been hauled off for road ballast -- apparently in the '50s or a bit later -- and grasses, trees, briars, and poison ivy had long-since taken over. The area is no longer accessible.

By almost unbelievable coincidence, besides finding the correct mine on that first trip, and surviving a shotgun challenge as I picked up my first piece of williamsite, I also purchased a Baltimore-published 1839 copy of "Josephus" at a flea market in the area on the way home late that afternoon; inside the cover was an inscription presenting the copy to Jesse Tyson, then age 18, from his father Isaac Tyson, Jr., in "Cold Stream," MD (NE Baltimore) in 1844. I had found the mine, found nice williamsite, gained collecting permission, and found the famous owner's (Isaac Tyson Jr.'s) 1844 gift copy of Josephus to his son Jesse -- all on one wintry-afternoon's exploration trip.

One of my best smaller "show-and-tell" williamsite pieces was in my pocket when I attended the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show in the early '90s. It passed across the counter to the hand of an Asian mineral dealer, who soon passed it to a carver in Taiwan, who then passed it back to me in a simple padded mailer envelope 2 months later, with a bill for $40 for having carved it. That carved piece (5 x 4 x 3 cm) is one of my most-treasured mineral specimens. I attach the specimen's photo here. Although "shrinking" the large JPG file size to less than the 1 MB MINDAT limit has dulled the brilliant green color somewhat; Trust me -- the translucency and color are stunning, and the identification of the piece as serpentinite/antigorite, var. williamsite, fools almost everyone. There is no fibrous nature or "undercutting" with this piece (and most of my other pieces), as is common with more-typical antigorite samples from other chromite deposits in the State Line area.

You can imagine my total shock and disdain when I learned years later that someone had managed to bamboozle the Maryland legislature into changing the experts'-consensus designation of "Maryland's gemstone" from the beautiful and unique williamsite to a drab river rock that looks more like a non-descript jasper. What a tragedy, as this photo of what I consider to be Maryland’s TRUE gemstone -- williamsite -- clearly shows.

Photo Copyright 2013. Kenneth C. Zahn. All rights reserved. No reproduction or electronic transmission without permission of Kenneth C. Zahn.

Fred Kelso Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The attached photo shows 4 specimens of serpentine

> I have collected from southern Chester County,

> Pennsylvania, and I'm wondering if they can be

> identified as Williamsite. They are all apple

> green with small chromite inclusions and have a

> waxy luster. Any information would be

> appreciated. Thanks and Merry Christmas!

24th Jun 2013 03:43 UTCJim Bean 🌟

Fantastic carving and exceptional williamsite, Kenneth!

The powers that be tried to change the state rock here in California from serpentine, to... whatever it was they were going to change it to, because Those Who Make Such Decisions had decided that serpentine=asbestos. Fortunately it didn't happen. I'm sad to hear such nonsense prevailed in Maryland.

24th Jun 2013 07:40 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Well, how do you think I feel, with the great mineral and mining history that Pennsylvania has . . . we've got NO official state rock, mineral nor gemstone thus far.

They've proposed Celestine, the Type Local is in Bell's Mill, Blair Co., PA (Klaproth (1797) Beitr.: 2: 92 as Schwefelsaurer Strontianit aus Pennsylvanien), and we've some really beautiful specimens which came from the Meckley's Quarry. I'd like to know what the hold up is.

So it's Patuxent River stone, huh? . . . sure looks kinda like iron stained river rock to me (I see your dismay).

MRH

11th Jun 2015 11:03 UTCCharles szczepanski

...someone please contact me asap. I have found the dump site. Not all went to road grade, someone had a conscience. There is a good reason behind it also, and wait until you see the material...

19th Dec 2016 07:45 UTCKenneth Zahn

A followup for 2016:

I can't seem to respond directly to posts by "Talusman," Heintzleman," and "Weissman" of January 2016 ( see http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,11,370353,370414#msg-370414) on potential Williamsite pieces. I'll post here and then try to figure out why I'm not able to do so there:

Response to “Talusman,” on his January 03, 2016 post:

I've collected in many "State Line area" locations in the early 1980s.

Have collected pieces of the same very dark green material that I believe I note with your piece. Those I've collected are not from the classic State Line Pit location, but from small dumps and veins well south -- between there and the Susquehanna River. This material was clearly much darker than "Williamsite" I collect from the Line Pit and has an even more vitreous luster than the traditional uniquely "emerald/apple green" Williamsite from the specific State Line Pit location of the Tyson's chromium mine just yards on the MD side of the border w/Pennsylvania. I also have numerous nice, very translucent pieces of similar dark green color (from additional other small area chromium prospect pits) that are CLEARLY fibrous and undercuts when polished. With material that is very dark green when viewed in direct light or when backlit, I am reluctant to call those Williamsite, only because it is not really emerald/apple green and has a different luster. I like it, however. Now as to the classic location and the true color of the "best gemmy" Williamsite prized by collectors and lapidarists of clubs from Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia since the 40's at least -- from my experience --- see my summary at: http://www.mindat.org/gallery-18505.html, and read the recent article at http://www.gemdat.org/photo-5895.html, then see pictures of several more of my better pieces at pages 16 and 17 of the MSDC newsletter article at: http://www.mineralogicalsocietyofdc.org/sites/default/files/newsletters/2016-08/msdc-dec-2013.pdf. Notice the bright emerald/apple green color of the several pieces. That's what I call Williamsite. I find no "microfibous" nature about the pieces and they carve nicely as you can see.

In the field, the finest pieces are somewhat pale green to the eye, are often attached directly to a band of the black chromite ore that was being mined in the first place, and ABSOLUTELY light up emerald/apple green when a wetted piece is backlit.

Ken Zahn

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