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UV MineralsFake hauyne?

10th Jan 2017 17:04 UTCRio Reason

So this guy is trying to sell me a nice hunk of blue crystal he calls hauyne for $250, but I'm hesitant to believe that it's real. It looks like gonnardite to me [EDIT: found something that looked like it in a gonnardite search here: http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html ], but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. He says it's from Badakhshan, Afghanistan, which is what led me to discovering an overwhelmingly similar looking gonnardite from that region on this site. I've also found his ebay and have sadly found what appear to be crystals glued to matrices :-(

Could anyone give me an opinion on what's in these photos?

10th Jan 2017 17:10 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

It is not gonnardite, gonnardite is white and does not form crystals like that .

10th Jan 2017 17:12 UTCRio Reason

Thanks, that's a start. I must have misread what came up... maybe I can find it again.

10th Jan 2017 17:16 UTCRio Reason

This is what I saw that made me think is was gonnardite:

http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html

The rest in the search are white, so I thought that maybe it was some other unusual form of it.

I think I had first just Googled "hauyne bagakhshan afghanistan" and ended up at that link.

10th Jan 2017 17:28 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

The white patch on the blue crystal is the gonnardite. Your specimen has no white patches due to alteration to gonnnardite.

10th Jan 2017 22:08 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

It could be hauyne, or what we once called lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of related minerals found in this region, hard to say without testing.

10th Jan 2017 22:21 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Doesn't have the right crystal form for afghanite. Rob Woodside would have a better idea of what it is.

10th Jan 2017 23:04 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has been re attached. It is most likely from the Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid eaten and if so, it came from the south side of the creek. Those from the north side escaped the acid.

11th Jan 2017 04:11 UTCRio Reason

Rob Woodside Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue

> stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call

> Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only

> caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has

> been re attached. It is most likely from the

> Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do

> alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid

> eaten and if so, it came from the south side of

> the creek. Those from the north side escaped the

> acid.

Thank you, that's very interesting! :-)

Is the price as high as I think? Or could it actually be low from the damage? I couldn't find anything good to gauge it against, but maybe I don't know what places to look.

Ralph Bottrill Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It could be hauyne, or what we once called

> lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of

> related minerals found in this region, hard to say

> without testing.

...Are you saying lazurite is an outdated name for hauyne?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me how to pronounce hauyne/hauynite?

11th Jan 2017 04:38 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

ow - een

11th Jan 2017 09:07 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Practically all lazurites that have been analysed have been found to be hauyne.

11th Jan 2017 14:07 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"ow - een" - only if you are a native English speaker ;-)

11th Jan 2017 16:50 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Right, Uwe, but this messageboard thread is in english ;-)

11th Jan 2017 17:14 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

@ Alfredo,

You called, mon ami?

@ Ralph,

Is that 'sulphur-rich' hauyne? See http://rruff.info/doclib/hom/lazurite.pdf, http://rruff.info/lazurite/ and http://rruff.info/hauyne/R070557. A comparison of the RRUFF raman spectra is thought provoking?

@ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue. The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as is 'main'). It would be surprising though if pronounciation did not differ with the language of the speaker.

11th Jan 2017 18:46 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

I think it could be sodalite.

The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it has very distorted color due to blue light contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365 nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite is orangish red.

11th Jan 2017 19:38 UTCRio Reason

José Zendrera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it could be sodalite.

> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it

> has very distorted color due to blue light

> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm

> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent

> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365

> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite

> is orangish red.

>

>

> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos

> in attached pics

Oh wow... that does look very similar. And they come from the same place? He sent me some more photos, I don't know if they'd help at all in identification, they're pretty low res. They do show quite a few more specimens, though:

Now that you've suggested it, I can see a resemblance to sodalite.

11th Jan 2017 19:42 UTCRio Reason

I had no idea sodalite could be so pretty! Learn something new every day. I'm glad I came here for clarification.

I hope some of you are fond of answering questions! I'm sure I'll have a lot, about a lot of different little treasures! :-D

11th Jan 2017 19:46 UTCRio Reason

José Zendrera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it could be sodalite.

> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it

> has very distorted color due to blue light

> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm

> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent

> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365

> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite

> is orangish red.

>

>

> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos

> in attached pics

Oh, he did say that he took the photos using shortwave, but there's a serious language barrier. He may have just picked one to make me happy.

11th Jan 2017 19:51 UTCRio Reason

Owen Melfyn Lewis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> @ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily

> use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue.

> The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used

> for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as

> is 'main'). It would be surprising though if

> pronounciation did not differ with the language of

> the speaker.

Thank you. I've been struggling with it! First I read it as "hi-yune," then of course with that stuck in my head I had to try to remember to read "ow-een." "Hain" makes a little more sense, but I'd probably sound silly to any American that heard me say it!

11th Jan 2017 22:09 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween, but it gives a slightly different pronunciation for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.

12th Jan 2017 00:43 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

Ralph Bottrill Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween,

> but it gives a slightly different pronunciation

> for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be

> interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Yes, it would - but would not be be binding on the English pronounciation(s). Languages frequently change the pronounciation of words they take into their own.

>

> Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide

> anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but

> the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is

> sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.

My reading of the entries in the RRUFF database suggests that hauyne does not have the sulphide anion whilst it is (always?) present in lazurite. There are four detailed analyses of lazurite from different parts of th world but only one for hauyne it would seem. There is no sulphate (SO₄) in the ideal chemistry offered for lazurite but (as per the analyses) it is to be found (often?) in both hauyne and lazurite. Thus at least one key differentiator of lazurite from hauyne present is the presents of the sulphide anion. That anion is essential to the production of the startlingly rich blue pigment (ground lazurite) that is ultramarine. These days, thanks to lab synthesis, dye manufacturers seem to have the recipe pretty firmly fixed. But nature, as always, runs a very messy workshop and geological samples may well but rarely show an ideal composition.

Whether or not lazurite should retain its IMA status as a mineral species is a debate I'll stay out of. However, it is and I think always will be of importance to a significant number that lazurite be retained as the name for sulphide-rich molecule.

12th Jan 2017 10:57 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes i should have clarified Owen, its defined as a sulphide-dominant end member, but in fact none have been proven to be so, and they are all sulphide-bearing hauyne. Maybe lazurite could be a useful varietal name if the true endmember can be proven to not exist, but you should not use the same name for both a theoretical endmember of a series and a variety of another endmember of the series. See also: http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,326838,403101

12th Jan 2017 19:56 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Jose, I suspect your sodalite is Hauyne and EDS would tell the tale with the Cl peak. Sodalite fluorescence is less brown and more orange to yellow.

13th Jan 2017 00:17 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Thanks Rob, at the end all blue stuff from Sar-e-Sang turn out to be haüyne!

Three "sodalites" with very different UV response.

Up - Halogen light

Center - LW UV

Bottom - SW UV

20th Mar 2017 17:17 UTCcascaillou

ah-ween is closer to french pronunciation

you can hear the name of french mineralogist René Just Haüy in this video at 4:02

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPZ4SX23osA

21st Mar 2017 22:16 UTCOwen Lewis

But we converse here in english and not in french ;-) In english, the letter 'h' is always aspirated in speech whilst in french the rule is that it is silent, e.g:

1. French pronounciation - 'onfleur. English pronounciation - Honfleur.

2. English pronounciation - Hartlepool. French pronounciation - 'artleypool.

In the written form, the h is always present in both languages but, even then, in French, where a noun is begun with the letter h and that noun is preceded by the definite article (the), then the definite article is always apostrophised, just as if the noun began with a vowel, e.g. l'hauyne.

Both treatments are pefectly correct - but only when set correctly in the context of the language being used. So, in English, the pronounciation of hauyne is hay-een. D'accord?

21st Mar 2017 22:34 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

No accord ;)) ...because people's names should be pronounced the way the person pronounced his own name, regardless of language one is speaking. Owen would be pronounced like "oven" by a German, and you'd correct them and tell them the proper way to say your name, even if the two of you were speaking to each other in estonian, n'est-ce pas?

21st Mar 2017 22:47 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I agree with Alfredo. If what Owen says is true I'd sure like to see how he would pronounce a Japanese name using English rules of pronunciation.

22nd Mar 2017 00:20 UTCcascaillou

Tout à fait.

22nd Mar 2017 14:50 UTCOwen Lewis

Alfredo Petrov Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No accord ;)) ...because people's names should be

> pronounced the way the person pronounced his own

> name, regardless of language one is speaking. Owen

> would be pronounced like "oven" by a German, and

> you'd correct them and tell them the proper way to

> say your name, even if the two of you were

> speaking to each other in estonian, n'est-ce pas?

Tsk.... do please buck up Alfredo; you made all that up as you went along :-)

1. We are discussing the name of a mineral, in which personal sensitivities and preferences play no part. The rule stands as given regarding the aspiration of aitches in english and their universal silence in spoken french. So 'hay-een' it is. I didn't invent this. It's simply the explanation for the pronounciation that I learned and and since copy the use of. It's a word to be found in the vocabulary of perhaps only one person in every 10,000 or so? In any language you like.

2. I spent about six years working in an international headquarters in Germany, where english was the working language though there was a majority of native german-speakers on the staff. The correct German custom for addressing work-place colleagues and all others except for family and close personal friends is to use both title and surname, e.g. 'Herr Lewis (pronounced 'Loo-is). There is no discourtesy or unfriendiness implied in this; rather, there is expression of courtesy and respect. However, those several German colleagues and friends who wished to show their grasp of modern english culture and custom would refer to me as 'Oven'. Only one (with a truly excellent grasp of english) do I remember as managing 'Owen'. On no occasion did it ever occur to me to try and correct to 'Owen' the pronounciation of my name.

22nd Mar 2017 16:47 UTCcascaillou

Afterall, if english people got used to a different pronunciation, why not. As long as it gets written correctly.

PS: webmineral has an english audio file associated to each mineral name

24th Mar 2017 12:02 UTCHolger Hartmaier 🌟

Reading this thread reminds me of something a colleague once told me when I was working overseas. English is a universal language that everyone will eventually understand- just keep repeating what you want louder and slower until you get what you want. ;-)

24th Mar 2017 12:34 UTCOwen Lewis

LOL ;-)

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