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Fake hauyne?

Posted by Rio Reason  
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Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:04PM
So this guy is trying to sell me a nice hunk of blue crystal he calls hauyne for $250, but I'm hesitant to believe that it's real. It looks like gonnardite to me [EDIT: found something that looked like it in a gonnardite search here: http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html ], but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. He says it's from Badakhshan, Afghanistan, which is what led me to discovering an overwhelmingly similar looking gonnardite from that region on this site. I've also found his ebay and have sadly found what appear to be crystals glued to matrices sad smiley

Could anyone give me an opinion on what's in these photos?







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2017 05:33PM by Rio Reason.
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Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 05:10PM
It is not gonnardite, gonnardite is white and does not form crystals like that .
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Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:12PM
Thanks, that's a start. I must have misread what came up... maybe I can find it again.
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Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:16PM
This is what I saw that made me think is was gonnardite:

http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html

The rest in the search are white, so I thought that maybe it was some other unusual form of it.

I think I had first just Googled "hauyne bagakhshan afghanistan" and ended up at that link.
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Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 05:28PM
The white patch on the blue crystal is the gonnardite. Your specimen has no white patches due to alteration to gonnnardite.
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Ralph Bottrill January 10, 2017 10:08PM
It could be hauyne, or what we once called lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of related minerals found in this region, hard to say without testing.
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Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 10:21PM
Doesn't have the right crystal form for afghanite. Rob Woodside would have a better idea of what it is.
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Rob Woodside January 10, 2017 11:04PM
It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has been re attached. It is most likely from the Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid eaten and if so, it came from the south side of the creek. Those from the north side escaped the acid.
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Rio Reason January 11, 2017 04:11AM
Rob Woodside Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue
> stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call
> Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only
> caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has
> been re attached. It is most likely from the
> Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do
> alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid
> eaten and if so, it came from the south side of
> the creek. Those from the north side escaped the
> acid.

Thank you, that's very interesting! smiling smiley

Is the price as high as I think? Or could it actually be low from the damage? I couldn't find anything good to gauge it against, but maybe I don't know what places to look.

Ralph Bottrill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It could be hauyne, or what we once called
> lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of
> related minerals found in this region, hard to say
> without testing.

...Are you saying lazurite is an outdated name for hauyne?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me how to pronounce hauyne/hauynite?
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Alfredo Petrov January 11, 2017 04:38AM
ow - een
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Ralph Bottrill January 11, 2017 09:07AM
Practically all lazurites that have been analysed have been found to be hauyne.
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Uwe Kolitsch January 11, 2017 02:07PM
"ow - een" - only if you are a native English speaker winking smiley
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Alfredo Petrov January 11, 2017 04:50PM
Right, Uwe, but this messageboard thread is in english winking smiley
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Owen Melfyn Lewis January 11, 2017 05:14PM
@ Alfredo,
You called, mon ami?

@ Ralph,
Is that 'sulphur-rich' hauyne? See http://rruff.info/doclib/hom/lazurite.pdf, http://rruff.info/lazurite/ and http://rruff.info/hauyne/R070557. A comparison of the RRUFF raman spectra is thought provoking?

@ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue. The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as is 'main'). It would be surprising though if pronounciation did not differ with the language of the speaker.
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José Zendrera January 11, 2017 06:46PM
I think it could be sodalite.
The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it has very distorted color due to blue light contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365 nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite is orangish red.


Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos in attached pics
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Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:38PM
José Zendrera Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it could be sodalite.
> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it
> has very distorted color due to blue light
> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm
> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent
> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365
> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite
> is orangish red.
>
>
> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos
> in attached pics

Oh wow... that does look very similar. And they come from the same place? He sent me some more photos, I don't know if they'd help at all in identification, they're pretty low res. They do show quite a few more specimens, though:





Now that you've suggested it, I can see a resemblance to sodalite.
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Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:42PM
I had no idea sodalite could be so pretty! Learn something new every day. I'm glad I came here for clarification.

I hope some of you are fond of answering questions! I'm sure I'll have a lot, about a lot of different little treasures! grinning smiley
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Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:46PM
José Zendrera Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it could be sodalite.
> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it
> has very distorted color due to blue light
> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm
> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent
> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365
> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite
> is orangish red.
>
>
> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos
> in attached pics

Oh, he did say that he took the photos using shortwave, but there's a serious language barrier. He may have just picked one to make me happy.
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Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:51PM
Owen Melfyn Lewis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily
> use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue.
> The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used
> for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as
> is 'main'). It would be surprising though if
> pronounciation did not differ with the language of
> the speaker.

Thank you. I've been struggling with it! First I read it as "hi-yune," then of course with that stuck in my head I had to try to remember to read "ow-een." "Hain" makes a little more sense, but I'd probably sound silly to any American that heard me say it!
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Ralph Bottrill January 11, 2017 10:09PM
If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween, but it gives a slightly different pronunciation for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.
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Owen Melfyn Lewis January 12, 2017 12:43AM
Ralph Bottrill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween,
> but it gives a slightly different pronunciation
> for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be
> interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Yes, it would - but would not be be binding on the English pronounciation(s). Languages frequently change the pronounciation of words they take into their own.
>
> Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide
> anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but
> the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is
> sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.

My reading of the entries in the RRUFF database suggests that hauyne does not have the sulphide anion whilst it is (always?) present in lazurite. There are four detailed analyses of lazurite from different parts of th world but only one for hauyne it would seem. There is no sulphate (SO4) in the ideal chemistry offered for lazurite but (as per the analyses) it is to be found (often?) in both hauyne and lazurite. Thus at least one key differentiator of lazurite from hauyne present is the presents of the sulphide anion. That anion is essential to the production of the startlingly rich blue pigment (ground lazurite) that is ultramarine. These days, thanks to lab synthesis, dye manufacturers seem to have the recipe pretty firmly fixed. But nature, as always, runs a very messy workshop and geological samples may well but rarely show an ideal composition.

Whether or not lazurite should retain its IMA status as a mineral species is a debate I'll stay out of. However, it is and I think always will be of importance to a significant number that lazurite be retained as the name for sulphide-rich molecule.
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Ralph Bottrill January 12, 2017 10:57AM
Yes i should have clarified Owen, its defined as a sulphide-dominant end member, but in fact none have been proven to be so, and they are all sulphide-bearing hauyne. Maybe lazurite could be a useful varietal name if the true endmember can be proven to not exist, but you should not use the same name for both a theoretical endmember of a series and a variety of another endmember of the series. See also: http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,326838,403101



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 11:17AM by Ralph Bottrill.
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Rob Woodside January 12, 2017 07:56PM
Jose, I suspect your sodalite is Hauyne and EDS would tell the tale with the Cl peak. Sodalite fluorescence is less brown and more orange to yellow.
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José Zendrera January 13, 2017 12:17AM
Thanks Rob, at the end all blue stuff from Sar-e-Sang turn out to be haüyne!

Three "sodalites" with very different UV response.
Up - Halogen light
Center - LW UV
Bottom - SW UV

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