Have the reverse-skeletal Madan galenas been faked?

I have always suspected that the reverse-skeletal galenas we have been seeing from Madan, Bulgaria had been manufactured by "sandblasting" existing specimens. I expected to see only an initial few, but now they seem to be at every show. Other opinions?

I think they're highly suspicious. Just to clarify, we're talking about skeletal galenas where the forms look irregular and rounded, as if the insides of the crystal are dissolved, and not those where they have clearly crystallized in a sharp skeletal form.

I have had dealers tell me that they trust their sources and believe they are genuine, but Rock Currier was able to replicate one of these specimens by taking a Michigan Galena and 'sandblasting' the centers of each cube. I'll let him explain more about what he did.

The eastern european mineral suppliers aren't short of a trick or two - we've had fake realgars and of course the fake smoky quartzes from Romania, so it doesn't surprise me one bit that some enterprising miner could have been fabricating these things in a hut somewhere and selling them on to unsuspecting mineral dealers.

Proper analysis should be able to determine whether the structures are caused by physical abrasion or chemical etching.

One does wonder what chemical conditions could etch the insides of DIFFERENT SIZED galena crystals on the same specimen at the rates required to leave just the perfect outside shell!!!

Jolyon

For what its worth, I have wondered the same thing. A good friend and someone who has been very active in the hobby for decades told me that he actually witnessed one being created. It was not the total creation of a fine specimen, but rather a demonstration to simply show that indeed it could be done and how it could be done. I was told that the results were very similar to the specimens being sold. That being said, I have seen a few specimens that really impressed me in that, if they were created, they would have had to been done with a VERY skilled hand in a way that seemed nearly impossible to do because of multiple crystals/clusters/orientations etc.

When I spoke to one dealer from Bulgaria a few years ago in Tucson he told me that they were from an old, one time find and had been stowed away for years and that this was the ONLY source of this material known. This to me, would be the kind of story you'd need for faked specimens. Otherwise we should know about its exact source, who is producing the material and see examples of it in situ. Does anyone know more about the story behind these pieces?

Hi,

I have had suspicions from the day I first saw these specimens. They are just too symmetrical and too clean to be natural. I was offered some of these specimens and turned them down because they seemed questionable and, frankly, are way overpriced for what they are.

Best,

Joe

I was one of several people that were instantly suspicious of these cavernous galenas when I first saw them. As soon as I got the chance I made one on a small air abrasive unit I had. They are simple to make if you have a small air abrasive tool and a galena cube. Use glass beads and about 80 psi air and in about ten or 15 minutes you can make one of your own. Other friends of mine also were able to duplicate these types of specimens. One made a very attractive one using octahedral galena from Sweetwater, Missouri. Another, only as a lark, using carborundum grit made a nice one out of fluorite. I suspect that we will see these coming to market soon from eastern Europe as soon as the idea occurs to them. Use diamond powder and I suspect you could make them out of spinel octahedrons if you wished. There are a lot of possibilities. But like the new spectacular wire silvers from Germany, it is not easy to prove that they are definitely fakes. I for myself, would not want one in my collection except as a joke to show friends. For specimens like this shown on Mindat, at the very least there should be inserted a comment that some knowledgeable people suggest that you take into consideration that they might be fakes at least until such time that they can definitely be proved to be natural.

Rock Currier
Crystals not pistols.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/27/2009 12:02AM by Rock Currier.

I agree with Rock's implication that, in cases like this, the burden of proof is on the suppliers. As Jolyon sometimes says, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". (Hope I'm not misquoting you, Jolyon.) It's not up to us to prove fakery, the suppliers should prove natural origin. (Samples before cleaning? Samples in situ? Samples with secondary minerals growing on the etched parts?)

The "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" statement was from Carl Sagan (and possibly others before him). He used it when discussing things such as UFOs. These odd galenas may not quite be in the same category of incredulity as UFOs but I don't think they're far off.

Jolyon

Is this : [www.mindat.org] what we are talking about? (I am not stating that this is person's Galena is a fake, just asking a question...)

I do gem carving and I personally (Given the right blasting equipment) could make something similar.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that it seems that the whole exposed surface of the material is the exact same texture and lustre.

It also seems odd that the weathering shows the Galena 'layers',.

'One does wonder what chemical conditions could etch the insides of DIFFERENT SIZED galena crystals on the same specimen at the rates required to leave just the perfect outside shell!!! '

This also is probably the best point that has been made.

I too wondered about this...

If one has a crystal that is quite large and 65% of the inside of the crystal is removed, how does it happen that a crystal that would fill this 65% of space inside this larger crystal also has about 65% of the inside removed...?

:S

I would also like to point out that one can mask whatever it is that they do not want sand blasted or chemically etched.

So, with a good imagination and patience, you could achieve some remarkable things... :D

Yes, Bri.

That's the sort of thing we're talking about.

Here's a better example:

[www.mindat.org]

This shows what i'm talking about with smaller and larger cubes, all etched to a relatively constant amount, I'm not sure how that can be explained through any natural phenomena!

And another...

[www.mindat.org]

I hope that Rob won't feel I'm singling him out here. MANY other dealers have had these, it's just unfortunate that his photos were handy here.

Jolyon

As for the galena 'layers' in the 'weathering', it's because of the good cleavage of galena, and another excellent pointer that the cause of this effect was mechanical rather than chemical etching.

Jolyon

Rock,
please show a photo of those mentioned air abrasive fakes ... IMHO it would be VERY difficult to create a specimen like Bri referred to. The Madan area is known for very interesting and in great parts VERY skeletal galena habits .. most may be treated with phosphoric or anything else to get lustre back but i have a specimen in my collection which i wouldn´t have thought of being man-made as it seems very hard for me to achieve clean crystallographic features with an air gun. I have to admit that my specimen is a cluster of highly lustrous skeletal gonderbach twins on highly lustrous quartz (which should be affected with glass bead air abrasive) and this may be different to the specs you mention but this may be a similar discussion to the Imiter silver.

And i am more convinced that Imiter silver can be faked more easily .... show me a definitely man made galena of this kind pls,

cheers
Roger

Hi Jolyon,

I am glad you state that you only use Rob`s photos because he has been so generous in uploading photos to Mindat. I know Rob is very particular with the identity and background of the specimens he is selling, but as you have stated these specimens have been handled by a number of dealers also before being offered by Rob Lavinsky.
The idea of them being manmade is very intriguing and can explain why they do not have any alteration which would be expected if found in clay as the story goes. I believe the water in the clay would react with the galena forming secondary minerals in the outer layers of the crystals. Such alterations are quite common on chuncks of galena left in clay and soil on dumps of old mines proving that they form quite fast. IOf later removed by cleaning the specimens these secondary minerals would leave corroded and pitted surfaces on the galena. Another suspicious thing is the fact that at first they seemed to be quite rare - then suddenly more of them turn up. There are similarities to the way native wire silver specimens from Germany and Marrocco emerged on the market. And just like these silvers, the Bulgarian specimens show great uniformity in associated minerals. This is unlike i.e. native silver specimens from China or Kongsberg where habits and associates are much more variable. It would be very interesting if somebody could throw more light on this subject.

Knut

Perhaps we should ask some conoisseurs like Tomek (Tomasz Praszkier, he´s a mindater also) from Spirifer Geological Society ... he knows the area quite well i think,
cheers
Roger

Knut also makes a good point a good point about the weathering mechanism producing secondary minerals.

You would expect to see that if these secondary minerals were dissolved, we would see some pocked-marked surfaces.

I disagree
the skeletal growth may be due to changes in the composition/saturation, etc of the hydrothermal solutions ... secondaries are formed later by far in most cases

Roger - I do hope you're not just trying to believe something because you have a specimen!

The only way to be sure is to do some research. Someone needs to come up with a credible natural explanation that covers the formation of these, I'm sure it should be pretty easy to telll abraded galena from naturally deposited stuff.

I really hope they are natural. But it seems too suspicious right now to just be a happy believer.

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't count in science. The only proper way to approach it is to assume it's a suspicious unless proven natural.

Jolyon

Why not look at it under SEM? Would natural etching be differentiable from a mechanically abraded specimen?

Also, how would such a natural etching mechanism occur? Is it not easier for chemicals to attack the exterior (especially corners) where there is more contact surface for the volume?

Jol,
nope i do not .. my specimen is way different (will post it when done photos and you will see why ).. but i did some research on hydrothermal deposits before (during my long time gone university career as an ore geologist) and until now here was no clue/evidence etc given to be those fakes .. i have seen many formations by changing of hydrotherms so in dubio pro reo for me .. until Rock doesn´t show me a photo of a man made galena like this i am more into the natural origin. And you know that i am aware of fakes. I definitely won´t rule out a man made origin .. but for me hard to achieve (not mentioned the possible chemical treatment to regain lustre which is common).
cheers
Roger

I missed some posts while typing ... the fact that the galena mentioned is that lustrous may be very likely due to a chemical treatment ... just saw Jolyons example links of Rob.