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Fakes & FraudsFULGURITE OR NOT
22nd Jun 2010 18:37 UTCFlaminia Zeman
I enjoyed the discourse on that long post about real or fake fulgurites. Being a amateur collector my knowledge is very limited. I personally would tend to consider as "fake" only formations purposefully induced. The fact that lightning, a result of natural forces may have been attracted to an area by a combination of natural & man made objects conditions & circumstances which accidentally combine to attract lightning strikes doesn't seem to me to logically constitute a "fake".
In an effort to research what I found (I'd never heard of fulgurites before), I researched literally hundreds of web sites (I'm an information hound and love researching anything which interests me). Many scientific sites acknowledge formations related to power pole attraction as fulgurites, and just as many do not. The area where I found what I found is rich in a huge variety of minerals - many of which I've collected and sought help to identify. It also is a volcanic area with dormant volcanic mountains. It was high in the Green Mountains in Vermont, in a large clearing, with some tall trees & some power lines. The long lines of burned black earth were all over the area not just along the side which had some power lines, running over rocks & deep into the ground. Nearby there's a hill which has long been called Lightning Hill. We dug up a lot of formations and the The Lechatelierite was so beautiful that people have been hounding me to sell them. I was reluctant to do so because I didn't know what to charge. So I've held on to them for 2 years. Some I will never sell. They are so lovely. Here's some photos of pieces of the glassy interior of the tubes. There are more pics on Barry's post.
22nd Jun 2010 19:13 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Dr. Bruce Jarnot gave a talk at the Rochester Symposium a few years ago about a similar case in Connecticut -- soil melted by a powerline short. Pretty interesting stuff, with interesting inclusions of weird chemistry (Fe silicides and the like), but not of geological origin, so not of economic value to most mineral collectors.
Talking to someone in charge of the powerline maintenance might reveal what went on there.
23rd Jun 2010 01:52 UTCFlaminia Zeman
On other sites with no power lines involved (allegedly) I read about & saw pics of lines of scorched earth.
Being a hypnotist and a meditation teacher I meet a lot of healers (Reiki etc. and shamans etc.) who hold thes. Didn't want to gyp them or myself. They held pieces & told me they're full of energy & begged me to sell them one. I felt weird selling something I didn't know the value of so I just gave them away. One guy I gave a batch to, sold them for a lot of money. Like the geologist Ronald Bonewitz (www.ronbonewitz.com (whom I'm sure some scientists I would guess discount), I do believe in an interchange between our electromagnetic energy & that of everything around us, including plants crystals & animals. But that moves us into more of a theoretical physics/spiritual sort of discourse, and hard nosed scientists usually veer away from such topics.
Mille Grazi, Alfredo for giving me some input.
23rd Jun 2010 02:53 UTCRock Currier Expert
They don't look like any fulgerites I have ever seen, and look suspiciously artificial to me. I would be reluctant to pay money for these things, but them I am not an expert in fulgerites.
25th Jun 2010 17:10 UTCFlaminia Zeman
By suspiciously artificial do you mean made by me ?
If so you're way off mark. As I said, the pics are of the glass lining of large tubes I found in the ground in the woods. Fortunately while with a respected member of our community.
If you mean made by a fallen power line, I just don't know. If not lightning induced formations, (whether attracted by power lines or not), then what the heck are they ?
And what I don't understand is how can they be artificial if I found them in the ground miles into the woods ? They must be composed of organic material. Is there anywhere I can send them to - to find out what they're composed of ? The pic I attached to this particular post is of a small piece s which I dug up which looks exactly like many fulgurites I've seen since finding these formations. Look at minresco.com. In Oregon & Virginia fulgurites have been found which have glassy lining much like these have .
25th Jun 2010 19:04 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
25th Jun 2010 21:50 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
Soil melted by lightning is still a fulgurite whether it is tube shaped or not. I have seen similiar samples to yours of melted soil caused by a very large lightning strike. I have also found artificial "fulgarites" under powerlines that looked identical to natural ones. If there are no powerlines in the area and there are no signs of human activity such as a furnace, factory, fireplace or garbage dump then I would say they are the product of a lightning strike and are therefore fulgurites. Have you found any glass beads in the area? Such large strikes sometimes create small "volcanoes" at the surface that spew out molten glass to form beads and threads.
26th Jun 2010 17:36 UTCFlaminia Zeman
I've found lots of cool little beads and beads with squiggly thready shapes. I've seen such shapes sold as exogenic which I had to look up & which means derived or originating internally. - www.tektitesource.com/Exogenic Fulgurites.
The ones I found are green a metallic grey & black. I haven't taken pics of them yet.
As I said this was deep in the woods after walking miles with our dogs. There were no buildings or signs of former inhabitation. Out here we at least have stone walls to indicate that people had once lived in certain areas but the nearest stone walls were not close. There were paths for snowmobiles & 4 wheelers and yes, there were some power lines as I said earlier but much higher up on the hill and far from where we dug up the main batch of these.. On Barry Miller's post I put photos of the surface phosphorous (possibly) bubble which first drew my attention & of a lechatelierite lined large tube we dug up. Many of the formations were hollow and many were not. This is a matter where I've seen very conflicting opinion all over the internet at reputable sites. As much of science is this way I'm enjoying learning and I will probably end up selling some & definitely making people aware of the diverging opinions. being into weird metaphysical stuff I will share that as well. Native Americans called fulgurites prayer pipes. I wrote an article on fulgurites for a local publication about living in Vermont called the Cracker Barrel. Couldn't find it on the internet but I still have it in my files. Thank you for taking the time all of you, for giving me some input. So, there is no place anyone can advise where I could send some pieces to find out what some of the various varieties are composed of ? A local big rock crystal & mineral dealer said he thought the was hematite & serpentine & a lot of other minerals.
25th Oct 2010 01:44 UTCEric K
25th Oct 2010 03:18 UTCDennis Tryon
25th Oct 2010 06:16 UTCRock Currier Expert
28th Oct 2010 04:36 UTCLogan Babcock (2)
5th Nov 2010 00:01 UTCCory
Carborundum wheel test- not metallic
Size- 9.6x2.25x1.75
specific gravity-2.935779817
sp. wt. g.-1280 diff- 436 Sp 2.936
Shape- Linear and sub rounded
Crust- yes
Nickel Iron test- Not metallic
hardness- 5.5
5th Nov 2010 13:31 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
5th Nov 2010 14:56 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
As for Eric K's "fulgarite" it also does not look like one, the surfaces are too smooth and regular. Buried fulgurites look more like roots than a snake. Without knowing it's relative position in the strata, what it was directly found in, and how deeply it was buried it is impossible to say how it was formed. However I am very suspicious of the claim that it was dug up in a sand and gravel pit. Looks more like the product of a glass works.
5th Nov 2010 17:30 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
Don S.
6th Nov 2010 14:59 UTCCory
11th Nov 2010 00:29 UTCEric Kechejian
21st Oct 2012 11:35 UTCeu2012x
I have a question: did the fulgurite seem to have grains that were slightly larger than the surrounding soils? There is some speculation that a heated plasma like lightning can hasten crystal growth (they grow diamonds and other minerals in heated plasma-filled chambers in under three weeks' time, for instance).
Thanks.
20th Jun 2013 06:24 UTCreoki
8th Apr 2014 09:17 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
8th Apr 2014 22:22 UTCRock Currier Expert
I would appear that you know a lot more about fulgurites than anyone who has yet bothered to respond to questions about them on this message board. Your descriptions and explanations appear to be carefully reasoned and worded which and and some here on Mindat appreciate. However I fear that some of the people asking the questions bay be bewildered by your answers because of their lack of any scientific training and will perhaps even not understand some of the terms you use.
Can you suggest some "beginners" literature as well as a couple of more advanced texts describing fulgurites in general?
9th Apr 2014 07:39 UTCDuncan Miller
11th Apr 2014 15:29 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
11th Apr 2014 16:20 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
11th Apr 2014 16:23 UTCRoger Curry
Please elucidate on your comment - "this diversity is an expression of quantum and kinetic effects of vapor expansion and dielectric propagation at differential energy levels and contribution of gamma and x-ray in highly positively-polarized channels"
Of the plethora of difficult words, I would particularly like an elaboration about why you think the gamma and X-rays produced by a lightning bolt could have any affect upon the forming fulgurite. Also, what's this about highly positively polarized channels? Nonsense.
Regards,
Rog
11th Apr 2014 16:46 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
11th Apr 2014 17:07 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
11th Apr 2014 18:09 UTCRoger Curry
Regards,
Rog
12th Apr 2014 03:50 UTCEugene & Sharon Cisneros Expert
I agree with you as the quote was worded. But, perhaps he meant propagation in a dielectric medium due to different energy levels? In any case, I am really enjoying this one. :)-D
Gene
13th Apr 2014 05:11 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
13th Apr 2014 05:30 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
13th Apr 2014 10:01 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
13th Apr 2014 16:29 UTCRoger Curry
Having a first name like mine, I have a great interest in quasicrystals, Sir Penrose's work on the subject is of great worth.
But Thaddeus, I believe I owe you an apology, for not initially seeing the humour, intermixed with your undoubted knowledge of fulgurites.
This is classic! -
"Gobbledygook? The extreme energy levels in lightning channels, producing gamma rays, x-rays, and now neutron signatures indicating nuclear-level reactions can interact in a way where quantum excitation is extending hyperbolically into the perturbation of liquid and vapor-phase ion structuring in an electron lattice within an ephemeral electrodynamic network, constraining the explosive kinetic forces that are instead being overcome by electrochemical buffers."
Cheers,
Roger
13th Apr 2014 19:52 UTCDoug Daniels
13th Apr 2014 20:46 UTCRoger Curry
I'm sure both yourself and Gene understand all the words, but are they correctly arranged?
This is an excellent video - (edit - in which this propensity is demonstrated)
Sketch from Morecambe & Wise show with composer, conductor, and pianist André Previn
Rog
14th Apr 2014 01:01 UTCD Mike Reinke
14th Apr 2014 01:58 UTCDoug Daniels
14th Apr 2014 06:39 UTCRoger Curry
14th Apr 2014 17:26 UTCKen Doxsee
and this ...
14th Apr 2014 17:35 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
14th Apr 2014 17:59 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
14th Apr 2014 20:31 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
-------------------------------------------------------
> For your consideration ...
>
>
> and this ...
I'm taking all of my posts down. This is why scientists aren't on this message board.
Honestly, if you are too interested not to pleasure yourselves as you insult me, but are yet not motivated enough to penetrate the remainder of the content of my posts - instead of focusing on some sentences you lack the attention span to comprehend - don't bully a newcomer. If you have nothing except some sly retort to contribute, just shut the fuck up until you can be humble enough to ask a meaningful question; responding with a link to an article about the Sokal Affair is tantamount to throwing in the Hitler card to suit one's ad hominem justifying a war. If it’s war that you want... . … and of course, the most cliché - and strongest - alibi of those who need everything explained to them like the juvenile hoarders you show yourself to have become has been the Sokal affair. If you think the intent behind the Sokal affair is appropriately aimed here, then consider yourselves slightly more rigorous peer reviewers. The point isn't the language used - it is appropriate considering the magnitude of the phenomena I am describing. You should recognize that the Sokal affair/science wars and the recent scandal involving computer-generated journal articles are indictments of many things, not limited to, but especially, the peer-review process and of relativist-post-modern social theoreticians who happen to reject that science is making the kind of "progress" it thinks it is, in the sense that all scientific paradigms are rather good accounts of the world within context of the limits of instrumentation and experimental design at the time they are relevant, but have fictional components necessarily where data are lacking, and are then superseded as new questions that cannot be addressed and accounted for within the framework of those scientific paradigms/theories arise.
Sokal has done absolutely nothing to advance physics http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/, instead taking on the task of defeating his fashionable postmodern opponents. Sokal failed to accept or even understand, where it WASN'T just a load of empty critical language written by art historians and neo-Marxists, the relativist camp of the social-historicist-constructivist approach toward the philosophy of science that he indicted, being a smug Sandanista-collaborating Marxist-Leninist-Maoist, armed with statistical mechanics, combinatorics, and his own tiny penis. The irony here is that Sokal has contributed almost nothing meaningful to quantum field physics and mathematics in general, the disciplines he professes and teaches.
We know that zealously wishful thinking is the gravity - the stuff - of all those accounts of the world that are accepted for a time, and then utterly crumble as a single finding leads to a watershed of exponentially-rapid publication of new findings, generating a density of ideas that becomes the new foundational reference point, reinforced further as people modify their views according to the new paradigm that had previously been not only obscure, but unthinkable. The theoretical frontiers of physics are just as tenuous as the grasp that both social constructivists in the philosophy of science and postmodernist relativists have on the essence of qualitative reality.
Having wasted my time on you saying that, the only claims I have made that are the least bit controversial are those concerning my rejection of the ET origin for certain impact glasses - and I'm not alone in making such conclusions. It is evident that you obviously aren't willing to debate the content of what I wrote, in favor of attacking a strawman - your own ignorance aside. I can say that at least you aren’t trying to assess WHY I wrote or why I write to you all about this – it’s a wasted effort.
So, in short, you don't deserve my attention to this issue, and I regret being compelled to excitedly declare - enthusiastically , perhaps foolishly too divulging - some of these concepts, notions, and proposals – all are hypothetical until proven guilty. Until then, I have just as much right to admit, profess, and defend my views as you do for being lazy and disrespectful in your alcoholic oversimplifications. Who knows then what will become prominent in geophysical literature in the coming months and years, as the sciences are beginning to recognize that " '... lightening hits something, it gets hot' ." All I am saying is that it gets REALLY FUCKING HOT and happens much more often than had been previously demonstrable. I am specifically advancing the notion that all indicators in fulminological research of late are showing that some pretty fucking crazy things happen when intense positive-charged lightning hits soils
Love, Thaddeus <3
14th Apr 2014 20:34 UTCRoger Curry
You said there's a possibility that fulgurite "diversity" could be the result of lightning generated X-rays. X-ray pulses from dart leaders are about a microsecond long, with energies up to a couple of hundred keV. The X-rays from stepped leaders can be discounted, as they occur before fulgurite formation. I just doubt if such short bursts of X-rays could affect the structure or chemistry of the forming fulgurite in any observable manner.
However, my knowledge about lightning theory is some years out of date, and I'd welcome any current references on the subject
Cheers,
Rog
Ref X-ray bursts associated with leader steps in cloud-to-ground lightning Dwyer et al <2005>
14th Apr 2014 21:33 UTCBob Harman
Five minutes later and I now note that Thaddeus has taken off all his postings save his last one lambasting all of us for "not understanding him as a scientist". Most of us would consider him a screwball; medically he probably is a well educated and very bright rambling schizophrenic. All around him recognize this, but he does not. Rather typical of the condition. Sad. CHEERS……BOB
14th Apr 2014 23:09 UTCThaddeus Gutierrez
I admit that what I am saying is speculative in these cases and undetectable at this point - but all other signs point toward quantum-relativistic levels of electrical excitation , as suspected of the tendency for asymptotically-decremental self-similarity of plasma diffusion into materials –self-involuting until quenching. So, given this untested possibility, ground fusion-reduction may be more extensive than once though. If free neutrons are being detected in lightning discharges, there could be weak variations in isotopic signatures and remanent magnetization in materials occurring some distance from strike locations themselves, with weaker reduction effects in already decaying mineral clasts in soils. After all, it has been assumed by ecologists, soil chemists, and botanists for many decades that lightning and other natural electrical convergence-discharge phenomena play perhaps the most important role in accelerating reduction of phosphorous and nitrogen. Also, it is possible that boron and nitrogen isotopes are converted into radiogenic carbon at the site of lightning strikes, which often happen in locations that humans have found suitable to reside due to many factors favorable to survival and to water table ground stabilization of the Earth electrical system, as it were. The strange anomalies found in radiocarbon dates in non-mountainous reaches that are susceptible to local thunderstorm formation may be due to this fusing-reducing effect, where target materials, such as wood, soil carbonates, and organic artifacts register impossibly young 14C dates(several sources of this radiogenic carbon can exist, such as 17O, 16O, 15N, 18N, 14N, 17B, 15B, 14B); surrounding sediments, conversely, will yield much older dates, depleted of radiogenic isotopes through scavenging by energized carbon in liquid and/or vapor phase, or alternatively as 14C and 13C are subjected to spallation, and are decayed in the transitional zone surrounding the reduced area as atomic nuclei are destabilized. This is supported by Essene and Fisher 1986, who found that platinum group metals and gold were scavenged into the darkened reduced zone and, of course, into the actual fulguritic matrix, but then a reddened, oxidized zone with lower enrichment was intercalated within a pale, relatively sterile zone with very low, depleted, abundances of the materials we speak of. Heavy metals of the platinum group in general were selected by the scavenging liquids (this level of analysis was the extent of the published results, extensive enough for he time, being a geophysicist; he worked on determining the oxygen fugacity and buffer equilibria for the formation of silicides, which he had, in 1986, found first in nature as a result of his work on the giant Winans Lake, Michigan fulgurite, which extended discontinuously over 30 meters!). The carbon is reduced during oxygen-depleting reactions, where carbon typically rapidly forms CO_2 with free oxygen, being depleted in a volatile redox buffered electrodynamically!
During the end of the last ice age, during the period of time I mentioned, the earth was probably getting bombarded by cosmic rays at a higher rate due to lowered solar activity very noticeably, suddenly, at the beginning of the Younger Dryas. This change in CR flux and insolation contributed a greater abundance of radiogenic isotopes that were generated through direct spallation, while ocean levels were cooling, and old carbon effects were controlled then due to lower carbon enrichment from sub-glacial infiltration into water tables. A few large volcanoes were erupting, and others potentially were erupting beneath the Greenland-proximal sea ice, affecting warm ocean current vectors. The feedback system that had been warming the Northern Hemisphere for the previous two thousand years, becoming insolation and thermohaline-impeded, developed a paradoxical negative effect on its growth, and thus meltwater cooled the oceans in the Northern Hemisphere as the thermohaline circulation perhaps completely ceased for a decade or more, while the cooling itself was lagged internationally at other latitudes.. This engendered a chaotic period of intense warm-cold air mixing, exponentially increasing storm activity. All these factors would undoubtedly increase the intensity, density and frequency of extreme electrical discharge events. Their geologic signature is profound in certain areas – at stream, wetland, and lake margins as expected - exactly where people live (where radiocarbon dates are almost always sampled, necessitated through incidental archaeological research). Perhaps this is one reason why the archaeological signature of humans in North America seems to have declined briefly, as measured by recordation of artifact and anthropgenic soils in places formerly densely occupied. Of course, food would have become scarce – megafauna were dying off, and plant foods were meager. Humans would have abandoned shoreline sites for upland springs, which also attracted game - as water became polluted with sediment, algae, and carbon from lightning-triggered fires during droughts. This is interpreted as a human die-off by some – but that evidence is probably just a sampling error, instead a response to drought-induced silting of creeks, causing saturation of terraces from the deposition of eroded sediment in relatively lower-velocity, meandering channels. Alluvial deposition certainly did increase very quicly rightr before the Bolling-Allerod/Younger Dryas transition, from unchecked sheet flow. Humans simply changed their subsistence strategies and technologies to deal with the changing food supplies.
Varve-based INTCAL09 calibration curve - notice what happens during the period around 12,900-12,500 cal BP (on the y axis). You see the young date effect globally as the curves flatten and converge (with confidence intervals decreasing), and it is much more horizontal for a longer period of time than any other phase, indicating an extended period of "young" radiocarbon dates, which is not a change in the decay constant (the half-life) of 14C ; this also cannot be explained by reservoir effects entirely. The Last Glacial Maximum is shown as a sharply notched phase from approx..18,450-18,200 cal BP. http://eos.tufts.edu/varves/images/navc_calib_INTCAL09curve.jpg
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