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Fakes & Fraudshigh price false emeralds
29th Jul 2012 09:39 UTCAnonymous User
29th Jul 2012 09:56 UTCAnonymous User
29th Jul 2012 12:42 UTCOwen Lewis
Anyone spending $xxxx on one crystal when they can't tell as much as one crystal form from another needs psychiatric help, a more knowledgeable friend - or both.
P.S. Not sure why anyone would treat a Hiddenite crystal when any old piece of Spodumene would do...
8th Aug 2012 20:49 UTCTim Jokela Jr
"i was looking for emeralds in ebay"
... just sayin'...
8th Aug 2012 23:24 UTCAnonymous User
9th Aug 2012 13:05 UTCRock Currier Expert
There is really not short cut to finding a bargain emerald specimens. I used to go to Colombia and hang out on the street corner where the emerald dealers hung out and try and buy emerald crystals and specimens at a price where I could bring them back to the United States and make some money on them. There were tons of fakes offered me and some of the ones I thought were real and bought turned out later to be fakes or enhanced or diddled in one way or another. I used to think that I could tell the fake ones from the real ones, but unless you have at your disposal a good binocular microscope and some other equipment and examine each specimen with the presumption that it is a fake you can be fooled. They finally got so they were using sophisticated dental adhesive and baked on coloring agents or would bore holes into the bottom of the crystals that they would fill with green epoxy? that you could not spot without very careful inspection with a microscope. I finally had to admit that the guys who made the fakes were smarter than I and that I could more profitably spend my time other places in the world chasing other kinds of specimens. So I quit going to Colombia for emeralds. You may eventually decide that trying to find bargain emeralds on Ebay or anywhere else will most likely be a waste of time. But there is always a story going around about a guy walking into a yard sale or a swap meet that finds a million dollar rock for ten dollars. Its the same allure as buying a lottery ticket or hitting it big in Vegas and hoping for the big score. Better to spend your time chasing minerals in other more productive ways.
10th Aug 2012 05:07 UTCAnonymous User
10th Aug 2012 11:05 UTCOwen Lewis
Yanick, Your eyes - or mine - aren't good enough to trust alone with a big buy made off a street corner or a stall. You *might* get lucky but the odds are heavily stacked that (1) your purchase will not be worth more than you paid for it (do you imagine that dealers are either fools or some sort of charity?) or (2) you have spent 10 - 100 times what the stone is truly worth.
There are only two routes to buy xxxx (+) stones without throwing money away. Appraisal by a qualified person or to have, yourself, a lot of personal knowledge + experience + instruments and the skill to use those instruments effectively. Large green Beryl can be bought at prices that seem a fantastic bargain when compared worth the $5000+ per gram commanded by the best gem quality. But they are not even worth considering if you know how to tell the difference and why one is worth more so much more than the other - and how much more it is worth. Small but interesting pieces of Emerald, i,e 'partly gemmy' - and small flawed cut stones too - can be bought for $xx and a great deal learned from them in addition to the pleasure of looking at them. More is to be learned from examining flawed stones that can be learned from examining the near-perfect.
10th Aug 2012 13:00 UTCAnonymous User
15th Aug 2012 01:16 UTCDermot Walsh
41/2 in X 2in
tu in advance..any and all help appeciated
best wishes
dermot
17th Aug 2012 04:32 UTCStephanie Martin
Do you have or do you know someone that might have a chelsea filter? This can be used to check for the presence of chromium. Under the filter the chromium bearing emeralds will show red. Emeralds coloured with vanadium (Brazil) or iron (Zambia) will not be red. This is useful in determining location as Columbian emeralds are coloured mostly by chromium. You can also buy chelsea filters for about $30 on ebay but if you won't be using it more than once you might try to borrow one if possible. I'm not sure where you are located but you could also try to take it to a gem clinic at a local gem show if there are ever any in your area, they might have one, or the ROM if you are close, otherwise maybe a local university. Pyrite with emerald is not common, it is likely from Columbia. I suggest you check the gallery here for possible Columbian locations, there won't be that many.
regards,
stephanie :-)
17th Aug 2012 11:49 UTCRock Currier Expert
17th Aug 2012 17:38 UTCTim Jokela Jr
17th Aug 2012 19:27 UTCOwen Lewis
Chelsea filter. This was invented in London in those dear dead days, not yet quite passed beyond recall, where it was a gem trade maxim that 'no Chromium==no Emerald'. What a nice simple world that was..... Now that one may (indeed, one should) describe any cuttable and gemmy green Beryl crystal as 'Emerald', relying on the Chelsea filter test is about as safe (less safe actually) as relying on a cheap UV torch to detect a Ruby. Yes. it works (some of the time, under modern trade rules) but one may pass over a whole lot of high value stones if one trusts to it. Many, gemologists, me included, never bother to spend the 30 bucks needed to get one. It's not the money; it's that the test is now as much of a liability as it is a help.
Pyrite + Emerald == Columbia? I don'rt think so for two reasons:
1. Most Emeralds from Colombia are not Pyrite included.
2. Emeralds that are Pyrite included may come also from Kafubu, Zambia (a major source of good Emerald). One needs to examine for as many of the inclusions as one can positively identify before declaring a source.
The Colombian Emerald mine most associated with Pyrite inclusion is Chivor. FWIW, looking at the (bad) photo of the chunk in question I'd hazard a guess of Santa Terezinha as the source locality - but it's no more than a punt.
in
17th Aug 2012 22:36 UTCDermot Walsh
regards
dermot
18th Aug 2012 01:00 UTCDermot Walsh
dermot
18th Aug 2012 02:22 UTCOwen Lewis
Though by no means a fine specimen, this stone has that 'pizzazz' that warrants the name Emerald (IMHO).
18th Aug 2012 10:10 UTCRock Currier Expert
18th Aug 2012 15:31 UTCOwen Lewis
No immersion nor even painting with Monobromoethane. This untreated stone was loaned to me for the privilege of examining and photoing it. Consequently it was touched with no more than a microfibre cloth and the proverbial 'camel's hair brush'. Magnification is x10 in the first shot and about x60 in the second two (which are also well cropped).
18th Aug 2012 19:39 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
Don
18th Aug 2012 21:28 UTCStephanie Martin
regards,
stephanie :))
18th Aug 2012 22:54 UTCOwen Lewis
Oops. Yes.
19th Aug 2012 01:43 UTCOwen Lewis
Spot on with country for Santa Terezinha. But:
1. There is a pic of rough from there in Vol 1 of the 'Photoatlas of Gemstones' that shows a similar 'banded' formation to Dermot's Beryl specimen.
2. Pyrite is a known occasional inclusion in ST emeralds also. I did not mean to infer that Kafubu, Zambia, was the only alternative for Pyrite inclusion in Emerald to Chivor, Colombia.
Chelsea filter. If you adhere to what (I believe) is still Gem-A teaching and is vehemently stated by Mike'O'Donoghue in 'Gems' and elsewhere then, never mind how the rest of the world has voted with it's feet in following the GIA lead, you will think that a green Beryl that does not display Chromium absorption/emission lines in its spectrum is not an Emerald. Fair enough - for those who choose to adhere to that line (and BTW my personal sympathies are with them). But, commercially, it is now prerequisite to identify and admit as Emerald, green Beryl that is of gem quality and in which Chromium is either not the primary chromophore or in which Chromium may be entirely absent. If the Chromium is either well masked or absent, then the Chelsea filter becomes simply a liability - and hence the fact that many of us prefer not to use it at all in Emerald identification.
Yes, AFAIK, there is no Colombian Emerald that does not have a Chromium chromophore. I'm less certain that this can never be masked by the additional presence of Iron.
Best,
Owen :-))
19th Aug 2012 02:57 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
19th Aug 2012 03:53 UTCStephanie Martin
Owen, thanks for the info bites regarding the S.T. emeralds.
regards,
stephanie :-)
19th Aug 2012 12:56 UTCDermot Walsh
dermot
19th Aug 2012 16:00 UTCOwen Lewis
Oh my.... where to begin :)-D
Emerald has a very wide distribution being found in all six continents, Norway to South Africa and the USA to China. It has been sought and exploited as a gemstone from antiquity. From the 1500's the Emerald market was dominated by stones of Colombian origin on grounds both of quantity of production and, more importantly, by desirability when compared with most Emeralds obtained from elsewhere. In the second half of the 20th century, very large new sources of Emerald were discovered in Africa and Brazil. In the 21st century, the extent of Emerald fields in China is still being discovered.
There have been many scientific studies made of Emerald but one that is both recent and significant to this discussion is the doctoral thesis of Le Huong at the University of Mainz (2008) - 'Microscopic, chemical and spectroscopic investigations on emeralds of various origins'.
Her work included the rigourous investigation of the composition of 260 Emeralds sourced from 15 mines in nine countries spread over 4 continents. Of the findings reported by Huong, the following are of particular significance to this discussion.
- Cr3++ was present in all the Emeralds examined, in a varying proportion.
- Fe was present in all Emeralds examined, in a varying proportion.
- Colombian Emeralds are amongst those with the highest proportion of Chromium present and also had the lowest recorded proportion of Iron present.
This painstaking study is significant in that it substantially redefines the nature of the 'No Chromium==No Emerald' argument. The universal presence of Chromium is now not in doubt. The proper considerations are of only limited abilities to detect simply its presence when Iron is also present, using the traditional instrument of hand-held spectroscope and (maybe) Chelsea filter - and also with the unaided human eye?
We appreciate gemstones not through the use of instrumentation, either simple or complex, but in the way we react to the material as humans through our visual sensitivities. At least some of us, myself included, find a subliminal excitement in viewing gems with high Cr and low Fe. That this mental stimulation might brought about through a conciousness of simple monetary worth can be safely excluded, as the stimulation occurs when viewing a well-made Verneuil process Ruby as readily as it does when viewing a fine Mogok stone. I only feel this particular stimulation when viewing high Cr/low Fe gem material e.g. some Emeralds, Rubies, Spinel and even some Chrome Diopside. Some other claim also to sense it when viewing high quality (blue) Sapphires (in which Cr is not likely to be significantly present) but Sapphire doesn't work for me.
This observation at least opens the door to a different approach to why, in these days of 'all green Beryl shall be Emerald', good Colombian stones maintain premium pricing in the market and those that approach them most nearly also show high Cr/low Fe. All may indeed be Emeralds but some stones only 'reach parts of the mind that others just don't reach'. I think it can only be a matter of years now before this phenomenon is properly investigated and quantified. The relationship of colour to e-m radiation and ligand field has been pretty well mapped. The effect on the brain of the detection in the eye of certain optical wavelengths/energy levels is still largely 'terra incognita' as far as I know.
With that hinterland, its hard to accept that, initially, the setting up and, latterly, the tearing down of the 'No Chromium==No Emerald' rule had base commercial motives. Rather, the setting up of the rule was an rationalisation of what people *felt*, as rationalised through the use of simple scientific instruments to make some basic observations and making a correlation of what was detectable with what was found desirable. Similarly, tearing down the rule was necessitated by a better understanding of material composition and the effect of variance in compositional combination. There is no reason to think that either approach has been less than honest and, in their turns, both have probably been unavoidable. And likely so, too, is the maintenance of a price premium for high Cr/low Fe stones, for which Colombia continues to have the largest production slice.
As a separate consideration, l also think that the 'names existed before the science' approach cannot stand. Some green stones that were not green Beryl were probably once accepted as Emeralds. Certainly, red Spinels have been historically misdescribed as Rubies and Taaffeites probably still continue occasionally to be misdescribed as Spinel. As material science has enabled us to differentiate with assurance one species/variety from another, so our use of the nomenclature - and even the nomenclature itself - becomes more refined.
19th Aug 2012 22:07 UTCDermot Walsh
thank you
dermot
at the moment the photos are no better
27th Aug 2012 20:38 UTCAnonymous User
I have no idea where the rumor that Vanadium colors zambian emeralds came from. I know of some others who thought this was the case as well. Nigeria has emeralds colored by vanadium I do know.
27th Aug 2012 20:52 UTCStephanie Martin
Thanks for the update on the Zambian emeralds. If you read my previous posts I did indicate that they were coloured by iron, rather than vanadium like the Brazilian emeralds. But it is interesting that they have a strong chromium component. Perhaps the iron component quenches the response under the chelsea filter?
regards,
stephanie :-)
27th Aug 2012 22:33 UTCOwen Lewis
28th Aug 2012 06:47 UTCAnonymous User
I had always thought Iron was as well but after speaking with Anna who in turn double checked with 2 of Gemfields gemologist they said that chromium was the dominate chromophore with iron not far behind. The thing is can you trust a company such as one with a large stake in emeralds to be truthful on the .."it has chromium"..."no chromium" thing, ya know. I would like to think so, so for the time being I will take them at their word. Many around the world still consider anything without chromium to not be an emerald so saying so would be in their favor. I had some mediocre zambian stones a couple years back...couple thousand carats of gemmy crystals but no cutters and they showed a Cr absorption line. The thing is I didn't buy them in Zambia or from a trusted source so I don't know if they truly are from Zambia. If it was today I would just have a friend scope the inclusions to determine origin.
Iron quenches lots of things including fluorescence in rubies which are also colored by chromium so maybe it does but I am not sure.
28th Aug 2012 19:19 UTCAnonymous User
29th Aug 2012 05:07 UTCStephanie Martin
Yanick, be patient and you might score a taaffeite if you are willing to settle for a less than ideal stone. I obtained several faceted as well as rough pieces for a very reasonable price and will have them tested by those knowledgeable. If they don't turn out to be taaffeite I will request a refund. If they are good, I'll let you know the seller so you can try to get some from there too.
regards,
stephanie :-)
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 18, 2024 12:05:22