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Fakes & FraudsMilpillas, so..what's the real story?

31st Jan 2014 04:16 UTCGail Spann Manager

I have to chuckle, over the last three years we have heard, over and over again, that Milpillas specimens are no longer coming out. But wait! They uncovered yet another area and great pieces are coming out, better get them while you can. Next thing we hear, Milpillas is done, gone, over and out. But Wait! They found yet another area rich in azurite and malachite and even cuprite! Better grab them while you can, and be sure to know they are done soon and no more will be coming out. Then I hear they have plugged the area with concrete, it's done. No more coming out. And yet, just this week I hear they found another area rich in specimens and they are coming out in quantity.

This reminds me of the spessartines coming out of Tanzania, the prices were high and the rarity was made clear, then all of a sudden they are everywhere, they are used for decoration in exhibits these days.

You just have to wonder if there are brilliant minds at work, or very confused ones.

But I will believe Milpillas is done when hell freezes over....

Shaking my head here <-------------

31st Jan 2014 04:56 UTCMichael Hopkins

Totally agree Gail. You know what, why don't you send me that darn Brochantite so you don't have to suffer the indignity of having to look at it. I mean it's just going to remind you of the mine. I'm only thinking of you and Jim here.

31st Jan 2014 05:19 UTCGail Spann Manager

Darn, i just love you so much, but Wait! Not THAT much!

31st Jan 2014 05:51 UTCWayne Corwin

Gail

So far I haven't heard them on TV selling them ,,, and saying:

"But wait,,,, call now and we'll double your order free (just pay seprate S&H extra), and we'll include a bag of actual dirt free besides!"

31st Jan 2014 06:40 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

It does tend to make one a bit cynical about "dead" localities, doesn't it? :)-D

31st Jan 2014 07:56 UTCDana Slaughter 🌟 Expert

I heard the same story about the creedites from the Navidad mine....the area is just too dangerous and this is your last chance to stock up on the things, etc. I think the Houston Museum cavansite that made the cover of the MR was bought under the same guise....and then the really good ones came out and the Houston piece was relegated to ok status! Let's hope that Milpillas has nine lives!

31st Jan 2014 08:18 UTCAntoine Barthélemy Expert

For those who do not have a specimen from there yet (like me), it is actually pretty good news. Thanks for sharing it !

31st Jan 2014 10:19 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert

question of the day

who says this - a geologist or a dealer - and to whom?

cheers

31st Jan 2014 12:39 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

I have followed Milpillas closely since I live in SE Arizona, only about 60 miles from the mine in Mexico. What this reminds me of is the salesmanship with diamonds. When I saw a national geographic about the hoards of diamonds Russia had, warehouses full and they wanted to dump them on the market to make some needed money. De Beers is so powerful they kept that from happening. More stories came out about diamonds in Canada, Australia and many, many more places. Surprised to see the photo of the day of a diamond from Wisconsin, they are all over. I have often told the story to my customers about Herkimer diamonds and real diamonds. The Herkimer crystals are found in a very small area and are actually so much rarer than actual diamonds but the diamond market has been so closely regulated, to keep the price high while the Herkimer diamonds fetch so much less.

With Milpillas I think it is quite similar, the salesmanship of the people who have purchased much of the material coming out has kept the price high. The specimens are beautiful and truly world class but there is a lot of the material out there. I also heard early on that the mining company would fire anyone caught collecting specimens, what happened there?

31st Jan 2014 15:12 UTCTom Klinepeter

I am already seeing pictures this year from Tucson of these specimens, again. I remember the small table set in front of the Inn Suites the first year they were on the market, need to buy one fast, a one time find. Then again the next year with a larger display and on and on. Good marketing.! I completely agree with Gail.

Tom

"My choices in life were to either be a piano player in a whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's hardly any difference."- Harry Truman

31st Jan 2014 15:26 UTCEvan Jones Expert

I can certainly understand the frustration on Milpillas. Over the years, we've heard the same "it's all over" stories from miners and sources in Mexico. What is without question is that the oxide orebodies were all mined out by early 2012 at which point mining in the sulfide orebody commenced. The processing facility at Milpillas was switched over from handling oxide/carbonate ores to sulfide ores. This should have been the end of the story and in fact, from early 2012 to fall 2013 we saw essentially nothing in the way of new azurite from Milpillas.

However, as is typical of this kind of copper porphyry deposit, it was predicted that an occasional fissure of oxidized ore might still be encountered at depth and this is exactly what happened. In late August 2013 a large watercourse lined with azurite was found, hence the quantity of crystal plates that have hit the market since that time. The fissure produced material right up to at least the end of the year. An azurite watercourse of this size appears to be unprecedented. We are now told that the fissure is sealed but who knows? My feeling is that we have not seen the end of this.

In addition, my suspicion is that since Peñoles is no longer interested in, nor able, to process copper carbonate ores, the fissure was left alone and not mined, thereby adding to the amount of material recovered. We have been jokingly referring to this new find as the "blue-nami" of azurite. That said, material from this pocket is, in general, very good quality with excellent color and luster and minimal damage. Some specimens are exceedingly large and very impressive.

There have also been occasional finds of nice blood red cuprite crystals and more recently, nice modified cubes of pyrite. Brochantite appears to be done. We expect to see more in the way of cuprite, native copper, pyrite and possibly chalcocite. But unless additional orebodies are discovered, Peñoles expects to run out of ore by 2017 at which time the mine will close and be allowed to flood. Only then will we be able to say that it's truly over.

Twenty years from now, we will be scratching our heads wondering where did all those azurites go?

31st Jan 2014 15:35 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

My two cents for what it is worth:

I noticed a thread about the productivity and longevity of the Milpillas Mine on Jordi Fabre’s Friends of Minerals Forum (FMF). Dr. Peter Megaw posted here:

http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=1760&sid=93baef0d366179ab42e4263f32af6327

Do note that Dr. Megaw wrote that in June 2011, almost 3.5 years ago and he stated the “Malachite-borchantite-azurite with minor cuprite and native copper) only represent thirty to forty percent of the total copper resource by volume.” (Megaw 2011) the rest is what he termed “gray oxides primarily supergene chalcocite with tenorite with sulfides”. I will let you read the rest of the entry, a lot of good information there.

He also wrote a post and a quick update on the Milpillas Mine on the FMF forum in May of 2013 here:

http://www.mineral-forum.com/message-board/viewtopic.php?t=3093

I consider Dr. Megaw as one of several people who is extremely knowledgeable about Mexican minerals on the forum. Jean Sendero and Evan Jones are other experts and I know they occasionally post here on Mindat as well. They might shed some better light on the situation going over in Milpillas as well.

My impressions about Milpillas:

The first is that there is a glut of really good specimens coming out of here and dealers and miners maybe holding on to them so as not to “crash” the prices. The goal here is to “release” the amount pieces slowly so that the price will effectively remain high. I remember reading a while ago, I don’t know where to post a citation (I think maybe an article by Bob Jones), but when the mine first opened, dealers offered the miners high prices for the pieces initially, and the prices haven’t really gone down to much since then. Of course price is relative…I was able to find a nice mini without sacrificing an arm and a leg.

The second thing is that comparing the spessartines from Tanzania and the azurites from Milpillas is unfortunately comparing apples to oranges. The geologic processes that created both minerals are very different. The spessartines were created by the result of metamorphism and the azurites from the Milpillas Mine were created as a result of an igneous copper porphyry. I don’t know the extent of the deposit in Tanzania and if the spessartine range extends past the Arusha Region, but I was told that the deposit may be more extensive than what we know currently.

The final impression is that the mine is not “quite” dead yet, but I would agree with Dr. Peter Megaw that the ore zones that has produced the azurites, brochantites, and malachites is certainly on the decline and I agree with Dana, I hope that Milpillas does have nine lives…

EDIT: It seems Evan Jones beat me to the punch about what I just typed…but still…I typed this first in Word, then copied and pasted it here.

31st Jan 2014 16:20 UTCScott Sadlocha

This made me chuckle Gail, thanks. While many localities are truly disappearing, I think sometimes this fact is overstated to perhaps inflate the rarity of a specimen, or perhaps just because the person hasn't seen the location themselves. I have seen this personally with localities in in Michigan's Upper Peninsula--I have been told that certain localities were "gone", only to go up there myself and find plentiful collecting at said locality. In some cases, I really had to beat the bush to collect, but still, it was there.

I think one of the most obvious occurrences of this has to do with the famous Sweet Home Mine. I am not sure if was the first article that MR did on the mine, but I think it might have been. I believe it was Volume 10, Number 6, 1979 (Colorado issue). I forget the exact wording, but there is a sentence indicating that the locality is pretty much gone and no new specimens would be coming from there. Fast forward to the famous Volume 29, Number 4 in 1998 and the Collector's Edge working of the mine. Who could have known there were such great specimens still there?

Because of things like this, I rarely discount a location as completely gone. As long as some remnant of the location exists and there is possible mineralization still left, it can still be worked. Maybe not anytime soon, but who knows what the future holds.

31st Jan 2014 17:33 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I suppose if you have invested a lot of money on the assumption that there will be no more and there is, it would be rather upsetting. However for a "bottom feeder" like me it is great news and something I never have to worry about LOL.

31st Jan 2014 18:17 UTCVincent Rigatti

Predicting the economic life of a mine, or death of a certain mineral coming from a mine is tricky business because mother nature is a fickle beast and we never really know what we think we know. We can make estimates and predictions based on core data or other technical information but they are estimates with error bars. I have learned this the hard way with over 30 years working as a geologist and seeing how difficult it is to predict the behavior of rocks in the subsurface. In this case combine the uncertainties in finding those wonderful azurites with a degree "salesmanship" to help keep a floor on prices and there will be some risk especially in investment level specimens.

31st Jan 2014 19:05 UTCGail Spann Manager

What fun responses, thanks! And comparing spessartine and azurite had nothing to do with the mineral, per se, but rather the marketing of those minerals. I find the responses are good and lively, appreciate them greatly. Just thought I would post some thought provoking concepts to see what everyone thinks. Not complaining, just having fun with the question about the life/death/rebirth of a mining locale. I expect Christopher Lee and Peter Cushing to emerge from the mines asking who is disturbing their crypts...

31st Jan 2014 23:02 UTCCarl (Bob) Carnein 🌟

The Milpillas specimens I've seen at shows fall into two categories: lots of small, dinged up, aesthetically challenged, overpriced pieces; and really beautiful, classic pieces that are way outside my price range. The latter are in the very small minority, as far as I can see (I can't spend big money on minerals, but I like to look). The prices stay up because of a combination of marketing savvy and demand. So, they're a lot like the Sweet Home rhodos or the Merelani tanzanites.

What I think is interesting is that many of the associated minerals seem to "fall through the cracks", as far as "serious" collectors are concerned. There are all kinds of cool things coming out of Merelani (as there were from Sweet Home) that don't go for especially high prices.

Or consider the aquamarines and colored tourmalines from various localities (look at the recent DVDs of talks at the Dallas Symposium)--they aren't particularly scarce, but the best ones get hyped up as "ikons" and sell for amazing prices.

3rd Feb 2014 08:07 UTCDale Foster Manager

I guess it must be a bit of a bugger, the unpredictability that is.

Just when you think the specimens are all gone something new is encountered in a mine - although this should come as no real surprise as the possibility of new finds in a working mine is quite plausible.

That new discoveries might affect the value of previous specimens is just a risk that anyone should accept when buying from an active mine locality.

24th Feb 2014 08:13 UTCRock Currier Expert

I recently saw a wonderful lot of these azurites, and one of the very good ones appeared to have some spraycrete on it which came off without too much trouble with a water jet from a fabric gun. All the specimens from this new pocket seem to have on their back sides what appear to be little green spider web looking stringers of malachite and I suppose this is responsible for some people calling it the spider web pocket. It appears that is what will make the specimens from this find distinctive.

28th Feb 2014 00:32 UTCDr. Brendan O'Connor

Great thread Gail! Lot's of informative responses for sure. As someone who has also followed the mine pretty closely over the last 4-5 years I can certainly relate to the array of emotions that people are experiencing over the fact that it never seems to die. I for one am actually happy to hear that we might get a few weeks, months or even years of those killer little blue rocks. Each pocket they hit seems to be totally different and the accessory minerals that have come out along with the azurite have also been fascinating. One day when it really is finished we will all be wishing that one more great pocket was hit!:)-D

28th Feb 2014 02:52 UTCJoseph Polityka Expert

Great thread.

I'm happy I got my humble specimens five years ago before all those zeros were added.

In my lifetime I have heard mining in Mexico is dead; yet every few years we discover that some industrious Mexican miners risk their lives and come up with amazing finds. Such is the world of ore mining; you never really know if the deposit is exhausted. A mine might not be productive on a large scale economic basis; but it can be economical from the point of view of a "bootleg miner".

My feelings are if you like it and you can afford it, then buy it. Just don't expect to make a fortune when you sell it. I know several people who are hoarding these specimens.

Best,

Joe

28th Feb 2014 04:50 UTCJuan Ángel Tort Figueroa

The same in the Naica mine. The company prohibits take samples, so, prices high, but always finds for sale, but very expensive.

3rd Mar 2014 22:48 UTCAnonymous User

For collectors it may seem that it was a marketing ploy to coax out higher prices. True many have been hanging onto pieces waiting for these to become the classics that they truly will be.

Most large mining companies operate on a truly larger scale that collectors can comprehend. Management does have concerns over safety issues. Several of my suppliers were killed in a tragic rock fall several years ago during normal operations and I know of several injured during collecting in mines. For them and their families the specimens were very expensive.

The risk of injury to supplement the often meager wages is what keeps them doing it. The injury risk and the problems of miners fighting over specimens is what drives mine managers crazy.

If you haven't been underground on a jackleg drill it is hard to comprehend the danger. When a round didn't go off and somebody had to drill it parts of my body puckered up tightly.

That Milpillas ran into such a large watercourse after they had taken away the guards happened but it was not a game. A number of miners lost their jobs over it.

5th Mar 2014 19:26 UTCDr. Brendan O'Connor

Dennis is right! There is SO much behind the scenes stuff that goes on that the average collector never see's before they dig into their wallets and hand over the cash for a specimen. Several miners have lost their lives in the collection process at Milpillas and I am sure more will share the same fate before the mine is closed for good. This is true for mines all over the world.

The great thing about milpillas is that with every new pocket they hit we have always seen something new and exciting. More mineral species have been discovered and the main specimen commodity azurite, keeps on coming out in new sizes, shapes and colors (shades of blue). I don't think they will ever produce so much that the market will be affected. It gets sucked up as fast as it comes out.

5th Mar 2014 23:50 UTCPhilip Persson Expert

Yes, hard to tell whether one should empty their savings account in a few flats of really good Milpillas azurites right now, or wait a year or two for them to be even cheaper and mor abundant. Yes, the best ones are expensive, but let's not forget that geologically and geographically, this is basically the Bisbee of the 21st century, and high-quality azurite crystals have always fetched big bucks for hundreds of years. I recall a dealer on Ebay recently auctioning off numerous nice azurite's from this new find- some were honestly going for a fraction of what they are "really" worth, but even though I've sold thousands on minerals on Ebay, I still hesitate at throwing myself into 'the fray' bidding on something, when I know that probably half the other people bidding have no clue about the history/geology of the locality and how that might influence values, etc. There were even some rumors in Tucson that some of the drug cartel people who operate in the border area around Bisbee and Milpillas were trading cocaine, heroine etc... for azurite, and vice versa, as a way to launder a little $$ across the border.

In any case I'm half-tempted to drive down to Sonora next weekend and ask around to see who has nice azurite's... though I'm not sure a tall redheaded gringo like me should be hanging around border towns... ;)

Philip

6th Mar 2014 09:41 UTCMario Pauwels

Something different, but still interesting I think:

There is the story about a Mexican mine worker, who makes officially US$ 200 a month for a whole month working in the Milpillas mine. But when fresh specimens are found, he smuggles them out of the mine and drive them across the border into the US and sells them each time for up to US$ 200.000. That miner continues to work in the Milpillas mine, but not for his official paycheck I think...

Best regards,

Mario Pauwels

6th Mar 2014 13:45 UTCGail Spann Manager

Great discussion! My hopes are that the miners all make a decent living, and it is hard and dangerous work. It would be nice if all collectors could enjoy a sample of the fine azurites and malachites. They are beautiful.

Thanks for your input, just food for thought!

6th Mar 2014 15:20 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert

My story is different, but it may add some perspective. When I was in high school in the early 1960's, I struggled to get a few dollars together to buy some second-rate mineral specimens. I was really impressed with stibnite, but could never afford the sky-high prices for decent material. It was said that the stibnite mines (in Japan, as I recall) were all closing down. Since little or no stibnite would be coming out in the future, I had better save up to get some soon!

22nd Apr 2014 17:14 UTCAdam Kelly

I was just at the spring show in Denver, and saw about 20 flats of incredible Milpillas azurites for great prices.

Among other things, we ended up getting a two inch tall crystal free of damage and very aesthetic for only a hundred bucks.

Many times I have seen lesser pieces from the same local for ten times the price.

This was the best batch I had seen from there yet, and at the best prices.

I guess only time will tell.

AK

22nd Apr 2014 18:36 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Adam,

Great find, sometimes you get lucky. From what you describe I don't think they will get any cheaper.

23rd Apr 2014 11:30 UTCRock Currier Expert

Those sound incredibly cheap. Did the specimens have a lot of damage?

23rd Apr 2014 16:23 UTCAdam Kelly

A few were damaged, but most were in excellent shape.

One piece I left on the table was a vug the size of my hand, filled with half inch azurites.

The only damage was around the edges where it had been removed from the host rock.

Where it had broken, it was a vibrant malachite.

Great contrast, great composition, and no damage to the vug.

Price was listed at $200 which I think was a tenth of the "real" value

Already kicking myself for not getting more.

AK

23rd Apr 2014 18:18 UTCAdam Kelly

BTW the dealer was Stan at Midwest Minerals.

Doubt he has anything left after the Denver show, but he might.

AK

7th Oct 2014 07:55 UTCAnonymous User

No matter how high the prices seem now, they will only go higher after the present supply dries up. Remember the dioptase specimens from Tsumeb that were ubiquitous in the late 1970's? Prices for nice specimens were high then, but they are astronomical now. For those of you who want to have a nice specimen of Milpillas azurite, I suggest you put some dough aside until you have saved enough to make a purchase. Else you may be kicking yourself in five or ten years.

11th Nov 2014 17:32 UTCIan Whitlock

Does anybody here know if its possible to change Cuprite from Silvery-Grey back to a Gemmy Red color using some sort of solution? I was told by a mineral dealer that he had done it with one of this Milpillas Cuprite's, but I just wanted to know if this is possible or not? And if it is, What solution do you use?

Thanks!

11th Nov 2014 18:32 UTCRock Currier Expert

I know of no such solution.

14th Nov 2014 23:30 UTCDr. Brendan O'Connor

Yeah I don't think it's possible or there would probably never be any of that silvery-grey stuff around. I have a few pieces that I'd love to change over to the bright red color but I doubt that's going to happen. I am not really even sure if the idea that if you leave a piece of the bright red cuprite in the direct sun all day it will turn silver. I have a nice piece that I was told used to be red but supposedly was left in the sun and it turned silver. Not sure I buy it but I guess I could be wrong.

15th Nov 2014 01:03 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

The surface and/or subsurface of the cuprite crystal faces has been chemically altered. Even if there were a way to change the colour back, the surface luster would be irretrievably altered - It wouldn't be the original surface. In other words, it would be a fake specimen.

1st Sep 2015 13:11 UTCAntoine Barthélemy Expert

I had already seen volborthite specimens from a recent find at the mine, but from a recent update on one dealer's website (I don't know if I can name him), I have just learned that the same pocket produced quite nice azurite specimens too. The pocket is said to have been opened in April 2015.

18th Sep 2015 03:55 UTCTim Jokela Jr

It's a tough question, that must truly gall the new breed of collector, be they in Houston, LA, or NYC.

Will the shiny blue rock they just paid $27,500 for sell for a profit in a year, when they tire of the hobby, and turn to collecting Albanian fetish masks for their amusement?

20th Apr 2020 19:40 UTCCurtis Forrester

Let the buyer beware! I too bought my Milpillas specimens early, before they were "mined out". Still looking for a good Miilpillas dioptase that won't break my "small bank". Anybody know where I can get one?

20th Apr 2020 20:41 UTCBob Harman

Like GAIL originally posted and like CURTIS F just now replied, one of the major differences with minerals vs other collectibles is the known numbers of the collectible vs unknown numbers out there.

Art works, coins, stamps and many other collectibles all had well known numbers originally made and known numbers currently in the market place. Not so with minerals. Not only Milpillas, but numerous other recently producing mineral localities have unknowable numbers out there and, at least, the potential for new discoveries to come onto the marketplace in the near future.

The Sweet Home Mine in Colorado has been retested. The Southern Illinois Fluorite District has plenty of ore still in the ground so the potential for more specimens is real. Same for quarries such as Clay Center Ohio, maybe the Elmwood mine in Tennessee and many others.

Just as DeBeers controls much of the diamond market, there is nothing to stop a mineral specimen mining group from "controlling" the marketplace of very pricey mineral specimens (such as rhodochrosite or azurite etc).

The point here is that when mineral specimen prices climb to certain levels, it spurs interest in discovering new finds. Unlike coins and stamps, new mineral finds from old localities becomes possible, making for a potentially very volatile marketplace. Buyer beware!

CHEERS......BOB

22nd Dec 2021 21:36 UTCDr. Brendan O'Connor

Did you end up finding a dioptase piece?

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