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Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!

Posted by Jeremy Zolan  
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
June 18, 2012 08:53PM
Thank you, Tom, very interesting! Are these similar to the crystals depicted on Mindat for the "Saltville" locality? The Saltville quartz pictures on Mindat look a bit like herkimers, although a couple hundred miles from the area you're talking about. It would be nice to get some pictures on Mindat of Virginia "herks" from the Strasburg/Front Royal area too - there don't seem to be any yet.

I'm ignorant of the geology of that part of the country, so I hope someone with more knowledge than I steps in to describe it, but I suspect that from a geological perspective those rocks might be part of the "Appalachian Basin" rather than the true Appalachian "mountains", but I'm merely quibbling... Closer to the actual ancient continental collision front, things got quite strongly metamorphosed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2012 09:01PM by Alfredo Petrov.
avatar Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
June 18, 2012 10:23PM
    


There are also similar small double terminated quartz crystals from Afghanistan with yellow petroleum inclusions as well as carbon particles. They often have floating bubbles (and carbon bits) - amazing under an eye glass smiling smiley

Amanda
Attachments:
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Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
June 18, 2012 10:32PM
Amanda, Your crystal looks like the ones coming from Khuzdar district, in Baluchistan, Pakistan. Try looking at it under an ultraviolet light - The fluorescence of the oil inclusions is amazing!
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
June 19, 2012 01:40AM
Alfredo, Saltville is over 200 miles to the southwest, but the rocks are similar early Paleozoic age. The pictures here of the Saltville crystals look good - I've seen similar crystals from the nearby Marion area that were rather milky.
Yes, all these localities are in the sedimentary Appalachian Basin, in carbonate rocks of Cambrian to Silurian age. Crystalline rocks of the "Appalachian Mountains" are represented by the Blue Ridge and Great Smoky Mountains in the southern areas, and by most of New England in the north. The Blue Ridge has been thrust to the west up to 150 miles in the last of the Appalachian orogenies, stopping less than a mile from overriding the quartz crystals at Front Royal. They have the power!
avatar Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
June 20, 2012 05:38PM
    
Thanks Alfredo, I will do!

Amanda
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 26, 2012 04:16AM
hi , double terminated quartz came from numerous locality. i own more than 80 specimens of quartz with this diamond shape all from a different locality and in all possible colour . i have red one from spain .blue with indicolite from bresil . green with epidote from madagascar , orange with amphibole inclusions from madagascar ,pink hematoidal from kazakhstan .amethyst from russia. opaque black with bitumen from italy and many other locality . silver colour with stibnite from brasil . orange one with a cactus like shape from mexico (call pecos diamond) and ect and ect .all my specimens came with a full mining label . why buy a double terminated quartz if your not sure of the exact locality . the world is full of well documented localities for quartz in this shape . like if not enough some unscrupulous dealers polish quartz points to make them bi-terminated or they made them from glass .if all this place in the world find their own name like pakimer or herkimer+locality .we will never seen the end.bye
avatar Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 26, 2012 02:44PM
Yanick,

Only a beginner would fail to distinguish correctly a cut and polished specimen from a natural under just x10 mag - or even none.

There is a place for the polishing/part polishing of specimens where the interest is, either or both, to examine microscopically the interior features of a crystal or observe or measure accurately some of its optical characteristics - or even simply its colour.

Such treatment of crystals is not only a commonplace in research but is also a frequent precursor to offering some items fro sale (e.g. Jadeite boulders before auction).

If dealers' labels are a be all and end all for some, so be it. It's a very human trait - as a several thousand year record of trading in and exhibition of Saints' relics and similar shows. Chaqu'un à son gôut. For others, it is more important to understand, in detail, what they have in their hand than to have a (his)story as to where it came from. Of course, to know all and with 100% certainty of accuracy would be very nice - but that is a goal (IMHO) not commonly achieved.

Owen
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 26, 2012 03:03PM
I found a couple of good clear doubly terminated quartz crystals at the Tankerville mine in Shropshire, but I don't claim that they are "Herkimer Diamonds", this is just a fraud..!
avatar Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 26, 2012 08:07PM
Would you say that Cheddar cheese may come only from Cheddar or that Frankfurter sausages may only come from Frankfurt ('am Main' or 'an der Oder' )?

Is it not more generally useful to label an item according to its properties rather than strictly by it's place of origin? When a place name should be used as a type label is debatable but, whatever, it occasionally happens and labels, once applied, tend to stick.

IMHO there is much less reason for shout 'fraud!' because a double-terminated Rock Crystal from any place in the world is called 'Herkimer' than that a similar stone dug up in Herkimer NY USA is named as a Diamond! Mote, beam, eye, plucking winking smiley Better still, lets have another beer....
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 28, 2012 07:38PM
hi Owen. i think than the polish double terminated quartz point or just made of glass are made the more often designed for the new age market.they think than a quartz a double ending have a bigger power or something like that. i have not really sympathy for this kind of persons but i feel a little bit sad for this customers buying a thing than it's not what they want . if quartz for them have a kind of power they will probaly angry to know than what they buy it's glass.,bye
avatar Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 28, 2012 11:42PM
Hi Yanick,

Yes, I agree that 'New Age' is the bulk market. This does not appeal to you (nor to me) but others who no longer can believe in God but feel the need to believe in *something* are often attracted to this quackery. So be it let them pass in peace.

Of course, when they buy glass it *might* truly be Quartz also. Pure SiO2 that has been vitrified on cooling rather than possessing a crystalline lattice structure? winking smiley

I have two cut and polished specimens. The first I bought as such because it was relatively cheap and allowed me to examine with great clarity the several acicular Rutile inclusions that it contained. The other was a small Indicolite specimen with a 'closed C' that was one of the first stones I bought. I sent this away to have the bronen end cut and polished to match the natural pinacoidal termination at the opposite end and also to have a flat cut and polished on one of the trigonal sides, exactly parallel to the C axis. This enables me to demonstrate some interesting anomalies in the optic character of this biaxial stone. It has also (and quite unexpectedly) slowly changed its colour following this treatment (a year ago) and is now almost black. The reason for this I am still researching. It's interesting stuff, Tourmaline.

I expect, occasionally, to have other stones cut in future for the purpose of extending my learning, as do some others. It may not be a 'nice' thing to do but it's hard to experience the anatomy of a body without dissecting some corpses.
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
August 29, 2012 06:20AM
hi , i have a large collection of included quartz . i agree with you about necessity of polishing quartz to exposed the inclusions . included quartz are easy to identify too when they are polished . recently i seen false included quartz on the market . some tiny pieces of metal wire been added to glass to try to make them look as kind of multi-color rutile inclusions and polish in quartz shape. they are mislabel as rutile quartz from vietnam and i dont even talk about the golden-strawberry glass recently appeared on the market and labeled as pink hematoidal quartz with golden limonite inclusions. nothing is never enough for this persons and their avidity for the money of ignorants persons .we often say to newcomers than a good way to indentify quartz is to look for inclusions inside the crystal. this kind of persons know this advice and use it at their advantage .i often tell to sellers than what they offer was in fact glass but they dont believe and tell me than its impossible showing the inclusions
The problem with polished crystals is that they are not necessarily polished crystals. They can be massive quartz cut in the shape of a crystal. The ONLY way you can be sure that a stone is a naturally formed quartz is by horizontal growth marks on each of six sides. And, they come to a point that has 6 sides. See the attached photo.

People are calling crystals that are the shape of Herkimer diamonds "herkimers" partly because that is the only name that describes that particular shape. Some geologists do it. The stones that are being called Pakimers are from Asia, and I feel that it is an ethical attempt to identify the stones. However, there are many people use the word "herkimer" as an unethical marketing tool.

I'm a rock hound who has had some training in mineralogy - I've been tripping over quartz crystals all my life (literally!) Because of the way I find them people decided I know all about the "woo woo" of stones and started pleading with me to teach crystal classes. I can read the books and I could recite that stuff but didn't want to. I finally decided to have a group work with three quartz crystals: clear, smoky, and amethyst. I did a guided meditation then had them hold the stones and write down whatever came to mind. To my complete and utter astonishment most of the people in the group said similar things about each crystal. I was dumb-founded! I didn't believe in any of it. I've continued to facilitate classes the same way with the same results and have learned to google the symbols people come up with. They usually have similar meanings. I still call it "woo woo".

The first time I deliberately went to a mine to find quartz crystals, it turned out that it had been mined for crystals for the crystal radios used during WW2. The radios didn't work without the crystals.

I think that the whole "Lemurian" crystal thing is marketing.
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
April 07, 2015 05:38AM
I had a box of a few dozen quartz crystals from an inch to 3 inches. Nothing really spectacular. I took them to a rock show and dealers offered me $10 for the whole box. I declined. A month later they had a "psychic fair" in the same building. (I wondered if they didn't advertise, would anyone show up?) I sold all the crystals there for $10, or more, each.
Re: Tibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
April 08, 2015 12:39AM
    
Howdy Pinchpotter-
Yes- The Lemurian "backstory for quartz habits" thing is ridiculous! There is NO "Lemuria"~ it was a fictional place popularized by Blavatsky in late 1800's.

Total hogwash and thus smacks of serious (self)deception and I DO find THAT disconcerting. Basing anything on a Lie is baddd news. In that case belief does not = reality!

Smoothing my annoyance//Flip side of coin to ME, though:
I suppose if people want to create a "new" religion/belief system and it IS peaceful, I have little issue with that.
Certainly have no need to impose my facts on their feelings unbidden.
I am polite in my refutation of "not being into that" if queried. I have never had someone 'jump' me for NOT being into it. Can't fault that!
Conduct otherwise starts at improper and rapidly approaches being an a&&%ole.
Before I stray too far- thus the reason for separation of gov and religion... Gov being imposition and religion intended as voluntary.

As to the metaphys 'names' for quartz habits, I find their naming tangentially 'useful'. I can't stop it or change it, but at least the terms encourage accurate communication. When encountered I go home and look up the proper terms. So a positive learning impetus is good:)-

ALSO:
Have to ask, this seemed glaring from your description-maybe your description wasn't complete? The group has similar responses because they have similar beliefs prior? Take a group of completely unconnected people. (no prior topic interest or reading on subject) See what THEY say. Could even be some control group issues even from the simple societal factors of color or maybe dif size of pieces? big small dark light = good bad powerful etc. Just curious- interesting stuff.

Best regards,
~JO:)
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