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Fakes & Frauds"Cactus Quartz" not real amethyst???

18th Oct 2006 21:26 UTCAlan Plante

I just read over to the Rock Net eBB that the pale amethyst-colored quartz xls being sold as "cactus quartz" are dyed. A fellow by the name of Rodney wrote:

"Did you know that spirit quartz or cactus quartz, is dyed? Since I buy & sell a lot of amethyst, I found this out from the guy who owns the african mine that all of the "spirit" or "cactus" quartz comes from. He took a deposit of interesting quartz ~~ but with little value or marketing potential ~~ and turned it into quite a money maker, by dying the quartz purple!"

So maybe Mindat shouldn't have "cactus quartz" as a synonym of amethyst? Perhaps it should just be a synonym of quartz - with a note in the description box that it's color is achieved by dying?

(Ah! - Those wonderful, fun, marketing folks! :~} )

Alan

19th Oct 2006 02:10 UTCKarl Volkman Expert

I seriously doubt that the "cactus quartz" is dyed. The color is to evenly distributed throughout the crystals without any concentration of color in the cracks and crevices. If you look at a dyed Brazilian quartz you will note that the color is concentrated in the chalcedony and not the quartz. We will see what others have to say on the subject

Karl

19th Oct 2006 02:13 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

No,

this is completely untrue.

There is tons of iron in conjunction with the quartz as well, clearly giving it the purple coloring.

I have seen the locals color white crystals purple with a sharpie marker, but nobody I've heard of has gotten any batches of dyed crystals. I've seen tens of thousands of these, I've cleaned thousands of them, there is NO WAY this should even be considered.

Spirit Quartz got it's name from the "Spirits" (rubbing alchohol) and Cactus because of the type of formation they have looks like the cactus out here in Tucson.

Rodney sounds like he is passing on third hand knowlege from a scetchy source. I've been around these things since 2001.

19th Oct 2006 03:32 UTCMRH

Got mine fairly direct from a dealer in Pretoria, a number of years back as well. Hard to believe anyone would/could do such an expert job at color enhancing, yet still leave that ugly orange iron staining nearer the base and in between some of the secondary growth xtls in those areas, as is the case on mine.

i. e. I think it's most likely hear-say "hogwash" as well.

Interesting origins on the "spirit" terminology use though, thanks Justin. Though when I got mine, I had yet to hear such a term used for the magaliesberg stuff, I always assumed it was just another one of those crystal healing charka type terms.

MRH

19th Oct 2006 04:29 UTCAlan Plante

I've not personally seen the material, so I have no basis for making a judgement. That's why I put the question marks in the thread title.

Since Rodney states he got the information straight from the miner, I'd suspect "first-hand hogwash" rather than third! :~}

It usually pays to get a "second opinion" - and maybe even "thirds" and "fourths".

:~}

Alan

19th Oct 2006 07:33 UTCNeil A. Richards Expert

I quite agree with Justin, Karl and MRH, I have contacted a highly respected mineral dealer in South Africa, who is a friend of mine, he has never heard of any enhancing of this material. I have also looked at a couple of my specimens of this type and on close inspection, there is no way known that they have been enhanced in any way. The really good stuff of this type is sourced from Kwa Ndebele, Magelisburg, South Africa.

Neil

19th Oct 2006 17:39 UTCMRH

Alan, you should feel safe/confident to acquire a specimen or two for yourself, the stuff is legit, I rather like them myself (I'm a bit of an Amethyst buff too)!

It's understandable to be a bit skeptical these days, and I hope you didn't take the refutiation of this tidbit of misinformation personally. There really is a lot of junk out there, so you do gotta watch out!

MRH

19th Oct 2006 21:47 UTCAlan Plante

No, I don't take it personally. I posted the query in the hopes of finding out what the case is - one way or the other.

I guess the question left at this point is whether or not Rodney was getting his leg pulled - or doing the leg pulling himself... :~}

Alan

19th Oct 2006 23:28 UTCFerdinando Giovine

Cactus quartz does not indicate a colored quartz, but a quartz shape in which, over a crystal first generation, is other crystals of second generation that remember one fir-cone. I have in my collection samples fumè from Kazakistan, samples white men from Herja/Rumania and ametist from South Africa. To write that Cactus quartz is equal to Amethyst is an error. It is only a quartz shape.

19th Dec 2006 01:42 UTCrodney

Jeez ! When I bought a couple of flats from a fellow named clive ( an african ) he stated that he owned the mine and that they were dyed . This was two years ago . I bought some earlier this year from the same guy and he didn't say anything about dying . In looking at the material , i see phantoms in the interior of the crystal that I do not think can be obtained from dying ! I merely repeated what I was told . Now it could be that this guy had a reason for telling me this , in other words ,that he wanted to put a false word out to hurt some one. I certainly don't have the time to concern my self with trying to fool someone or pull somesones leg.

19th Dec 2006 05:19 UTCMRH

Wow, that really IS peculiar! I can see why you felt you had no reason to doubt his word, what with someone ratting himself out and all!

He must have had some sort of agenda, but it's beyond me what it could possibly have been!

Just plain weird, huh? Frankly, it'd kinda tick me off to be "bull#%$@ed" like that! Still, kinda piques my curiosity as to why he claimed they were "faked". Bet any money I won't be able to get this one out of my head now!

..."If it weren't for my horse, I'd wouldn't have spent that year in college"...

- Lewis Black

MRH

19th Dec 2006 06:11 UTCGreg Dainty

If anybody is interested the Australian Journal of Mineralogy , June 2003. , P 46. has a very good article on this material. The only other comment I'd make from experience ,is that some of this material can fade very fast if left in sun light to long ( e,g two days)

Greg Dainty

20th Dec 2006 10:19 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

No one owns the mine, as it isn't a mine, but rather a very large deposit over an area. The deposits are all over and some people have taken to diggin up their yard to find specimens to sell.

Anyone seen any Quartz after Fluorite casts from there? I have. That's just how cool I am...=)

Oh man, that Lewis Black quote has even more legs now in the age of cell phone madness.

21st Dec 2006 12:27 UTCMark Rheinberger

Cactus, Spirit Crystal or what never name is put to this quartz from the Magaliesburg Mts in Pretoria, South Africa can vary. Just the varities I've seen range from Amethyst, white quartz, citrine to smoky and combinations. The specimens can vary from a fine drusy covering a large crystal(grey in colour) to much bigger crystals just clustered together. The lilac (amethyst) coloured specimens in particular can be very showy.

There were some very very nice deep purple specimens around years ago but I have not seen them since. Are these rich purple specimens still coming out?

Happy holidays if you get one.

Mark

21st Dec 2006 15:10 UTCrodney

It could be that when the fellow ( clive ) told me that they were dyed , he could have just been referring to that particular batch being dyed , and from his own personal digging area . Or as I mentioned , perhaps he was mad at the person he normally buys these from & wanted to spread a malicious rumour .

21st Dec 2006 20:19 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

Are you talking about Clive Quiet? If so, I blame the translation.

"Cactus Quartz" will be found forever and ever and ever and ever. Like Herkimer Diamonds. The deposit is just as large. Whatever colors you want, that is what will be found. They even have splashes of red from iron inclusions sometimes.

The "Citrine" orange specimens are not actually citrine, rather, the sides of the crystals are reflecting the color from underneath which is caused by iron staining.

There are treated specimens, as white cactus quartz just sits and sits and sits on the shelf, being purchased by noone. So, several dealers, including Clive, have sent them out to treatment facilities to have them coated with Aqua Aura (gold) or another element, making them purple, opal, orange, blue, yellow and all sorts of other schenanigans.

Now, this one time I did see a white cactus quartz with purple marker coating...but it looked like that too a LOT of time...=)

7th Jan 2007 06:14 UTCJenna Mast

I have a specimen of this and I do have to agree that it doesn't look dyed. Perhaps a very small number of specimens have been dyed though.

I can tell you if you ever see a two toned orange in the supermarket, or wonder why some oranges are bright orange while others are a lighter orange, it's because they HAVE been dyed!

8th Jan 2007 15:29 UTCClaus Hedegaard

There is not a 'mine' as such but lots of small pits around a village - there was an article in Mineralien Welt in late 2005 as far as I recall.

Purple colour is genuine (have never seen any that was not, yes I've seen 'tons' of it in Africa, USA and Europe).

However, some of the similar white Quartz (spirited or not) has been sputter coated with gold and I believe titanium, producing 'aqua aura' like, metallic, bluish/greenish/golden Quartz. Great shop rock!

Claus

20th Apr 2007 01:51 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

I understood Rob Smith had the rights to this claim & he's a well known reputable dealer.

20th Apr 2007 03:47 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

Well, that wasn't worth the bump back up to the top of the page...

but...

No, Rob Smith does not have the rights to this "claim".

Let me explain to everyone how VAST this deposit spans. It's BIG. Whole lotta area to mine this quartz. There is certainly no one "Claim" on the area. Plus, as luck would have, this area is a designated relocation area for native Africans...a "Homeland" if you will. These people are digging out their yards.

There are no dumb questions, just dumb statements.

20th Apr 2007 05:46 UTCAnonymous User

Here we go again Justin making a valid point and then being super judgemental....why so heavy mate??? we are all here for the same reason !!! well I think we are anyway....but I do agree this is a beautiful place and we really should show more care for it and it's people.

20th Apr 2007 08:26 UTCJakub Witkowski

Hi all,

I'd also like to say that the color is genuine. However, a significant portion of cactus quartzes are processed, but the purpose is completely different. The reason is that the deeper the diggers go in a pit, the more iron oxides coat (and I do mean coat, sometimes it's a really thick cover) the crystals. So finally, when you get a cluster you first have to dissolve the oxides. A friend of mine went through such a process and the color underneath was pale but genuine.

I was told that stuff coming from the surface zones of a vein is clear.

When speaking of Cactus quartz - is the locality given for them in Mindat.org 100% correct? I only know one locale for cactus quartz, that is Boekenhouthoek, NE of Pretoria - and to my knowledge this isn't Magaliesberg anymore. The range Magaliesberg stretches W of Pretoria. What do you think?

cheers!

jw.

20th Apr 2007 08:28 UTCChristian Bracke Expert

Hi Alan,

I was there, sat in the clay and dug em out myself, believe me, they come out as true amethysts in different colours, from almost white to deep purple, depending on the cleft / pocket. No dying necessary, the colour is as real as can be.

Christian

20th Apr 2007 09:06 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

Hi Jakub,

The Magaliesburg refrenece was started because the first sellers didn't want people to know where they really came from. The only location is quite certainly Boekenhouthoek, but I've also heard Kwa Noble. Is Kwa Noble the name of something nearby Boekenhouthoek?

Thanks!

Justin

20th Apr 2007 10:22 UTCLuca Baralis

I've got a specimen said from Mpumalanga province, South Africa.

20th Apr 2007 12:25 UTCRuth Raubenheimer

A bit of geography from the cactus quartz article in Lapis, october 2004 and own knowledge:

Yes it is Boekenhoetshoek, 70 km NE of Pretoria

In the old "homeland" Kwa Ndebele (not Kwa Noble!)

Now in the Mpumalanga province

It is NOT part of the Magaliesberg BUT both are part of the famous Bushveld Complex (seen geological)

And a quick comment: Clive Quiet is a white person!

Ruth

20th Apr 2007 18:13 UTCKarel Bal

Hello everyone,

Quite right,the in Mindat given location "Magaliesberg" is incorrect and must be as already mentioned:

Boekenhouthoek area,Mkobola District,Mpumalanga Prov.(Eastern Transvaal),South- Africa.

Lat:25Â°18'S / Lon:29Â°02'E

PS. and the stuff is real!(See also: www.pbase.com/john_endres/crystal_search_excursion_to_boekenhouthoek

Nice Weekend

Karel

20th Apr 2007 19:23 UTCJakub Witkowski

Hi Justin, hello everyone

I didn't know that the misinformation was done originally on purpose. Right now it's no mystery, but still I guess the Boekenhouthoek vicinity is rich enough in pits and small quarries to protect itself against too much interest (sounds awful ;). I was also informed that the place had not the best fame for some time in terms of safety. Nevertheless I visited it this year, and found out that all nice stuff is shipped immediately to Pretoria. What is nice about the material is that even good quality pieces are priced reasonably.

Cheers and thank you for comments on locality,

jw.

21st Apr 2007 14:18 UTCTony H. Gill Expert

The yellow variety of this stuff....is it heated amethyst!?

21st Apr 2007 20:17 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

Tony,

I answered your question further up on the page.

"The "Citrine" orange specimens are not actually citrine, rather, the sides of the crystals are reflecting the color from underneath which is caused by iron staining."

23rd Apr 2007 20:14 UTCTony H. Gill Expert

Thanks Justin, had a closer look at one I own and I would say your comments reflect what I have observed, shame because it seems like there are many people out there marketing it as that elusive citrine.

Cheers

Tony

2nd Nov 2011 10:13 UTCDebbie

Hello Rodney

I have only seen these random emails now, ie Wednesday 2nd November 2011!

First of all, Clive does not own the mine - we know him as he lives near us and also buys some goods from us. Secondly, we are the main suppliers of Cactus Quartz in South Africa., ie Debbie and Jose trading as Minerals from Africa.

We definitely do not dye the Cactus Quartz - we get is straight from the mine and we clean it. Over the last 2 years the quality of the Cactus Quartz coming out of the mine has been changing ie some White some white/citrine, fairy quartz, smokey quartz, amethyst/spirit Quartz.

We also found a Cactus Quartz that was much larger and we called this Giant Cactus Quartz - this one had a fantastic shine when we had cleaned it that a client even thought we had sprayed it with lacquer!

Before people make remarks like this they should question the country from where it comes.

2nd Nov 2011 10:28 UTCDebbie

Hello Alan

I have just written a note to Rodney regarding Cactus Quartz Amethyst - I have just seen his random query. Please note that we are the main suppliers of Cactus Quartz and how anybody could write such a thing I dont know - or why they did - strange.

, at one stage this year, the mine was hardly producing any Cactus Quartz. When we get it from the mine it is covered in limonite and needs a good clean which often takes up to 3 weeks.

Thank you,

Debbie and Jose

Minerals from Africa

4th Nov 2011 19:15 UTCRock Currier Expert

Over the past few years we have bought quite a bit of stuff from African Minerals including a lot of the "cactus" quartz, and we have seen no evidence that the specimens that they have supplied have been anything other than natural quartz/amethyst. It grades from white to a quite dark amethyst color and everything in between

Rock Currier

Jewel Tunnel Imports.

4th Nov 2011 20:14 UTCHerman Du Plessis

Hi there

Just to make this available, this quartz does not all come from one mine, it comes from hundreds of pits 5-5 meter 20-30meters deep. and not from a single "mine".

and no its not dyed, i have been to the actual diggings and these people dig with pick and shovel, i don't even think for one second that they will dye the stuff.

some of the pits.

forever searching

Boekenhouthoek, Mkobola, Thembisile Hani Local Municipality, Nkangala District Municipality, Mpumalanga, South Africa

15 to 20 meter vertical hand dug shaft

Boekenhouthoek, Mkobola, Thembisile Hani Local Municipality, Nkangala District Municipality, Mpumalanga, South Africa

4th Nov 2011 20:17 UTCRock Currier Expert

Really good locality shots.

4th Nov 2011 23:25 UTCbob kerr

clive quite does not own the mine - he's simply a dealer who has sold tons of this stuff since the first year it came out - and how could dye penetrate the entire xl?? it's real - period.

18th Mar 2015 06:31 UTCIan

Hi

I am Clives son and he doesn't own the mine but he gets 90%of what comes out and you can see it in Tucson , this year he was one of the only dealers with it .

The amethyst is definitely real and not coming out as much as before.

thanks

Ian Queit

8th Sep 2015 19:24 UTC...

Hi Guys,

I have just bought some of this 'cactus' quartz and was sold it as ametrine. I do not mind if it is amethyst and the yellow/orange is an iron stain it is still a beautiful stone but i do mind being told i am buying something it is not.. and there is a lot of this stuff being sold as cactus ametrine. On researching cactus quartz i found it comes only from a specific area of South Africa, on researching ametrine i found it comes only from a specific area in Bolivia, realising this is conflicting i started looking around found lovely pictures of the area and local miners that cactus quartz comes from.

Then i ended up here and from what i can gather it is genuine amethyst often coated in or reflecting iron residue but not genuine citrine or ametrine... am I right here??? I'm not a mineral expert just a curious buyer who loves stones. It is beautiful anyway and I don't really mind what it is as long as it's natural but i would prefer to know what I am buying and to know the seller knows what I'm buying. The main reason i started looking was to see if what i was buying was mined conscientiously and if it was treated.

Spirit quartz appears both rare and beautiful but apparently there is something to gain in selling it as 'citrine'. I didn't perceive the seller as a liar or stupid but there would have to be some give somewhere!! They did clearly state on their page the correct area where this stone comes from and they seem like a good/fair seller.. would much rather be sold amethyst cactus quartz with 'ametrine like' appearance... don't know if i'm just pinickity

16th Jun 2016 11:21 UTCtsumeb

Hi there

Where can we get hold of Clive Quaite? He is a very old good friend of my parents (Koos and Enid Pieters - +27 78 604 6327) and they long to see him. Not seen him for 25 years

Kind regards

Adri

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