My Dealings with Joseph A. Freilich

It is a very sad event when an apparently enthusiastic and helpful Mindater, who professes great love for mineralogy, turns out to have a darker side and cannot or will not live up to their obligations. That is the sorry case of Joe Freilich which you can read in his own words at:

[www.mindat.org]

that I have published today. I have done so reluctantly as this is a very unpleasant matter. If others had done it before me, I wouldn't be in this position. I hope people will come forward, to confirm the pattern I have found and to protect future collectors.

When an established dealer and collector will not honour his debt to a newbie, what is the newbie to think? The frequent reaction is to feel that they have done something wrong and to believe Joe's nonsense. What are the chances that this person leaves the hobby in disgust? There is also a knock on effect from this behaviour. In my own case I left on a buying trip thinking Joe was going to honour his debt. I could have committed the money Joe owed on specimens. Thankfully I explained my position of waiting for Joe's cheque and learned the awful truth. Had I committed the money Joe owed, I would have had to return specimens to everyone's embarrassment.

If Joe is to be believed, his wife’s lawyers no longer permit him to consign or send specimens on approval. It is strictly cash up front. Those dealers with whom I have talked and who still do business with Joe, do it on that basis- no cheques!!! Caveat Emptor!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2009 11:37PM by Rob Woodside.

Wire fraud my friends I would contact the Postal inspector and file a report with them, since it is over a certain amount. It will be taken up to a federal wire fraud level.

This needs to be delt with as much as you may not like it Rob through the courts.



Byron

This is indeed very sad....for several reasons....the omissions from the whole story are blatant, and Dr. Woodside has a decided advantage in being part of the staff of mindat, such that my responses are not being aired...I believe that not only is mindat the wrong place to air disputes such as this, but that a smear campaign on the part of a frustrated and bitter man can be afforded a venue to spew forth his hatred and vitriol....What Dr. Woodside is NOT telling you is....I have sent 4 emails and posted a message on mindat to have a conversation with him to settle the matter amicably...he has not responded in any way...He clearly wants the "smear"..... sad man, and a sad story...Had he answered, this would have all been over by now....

and...the rush of " disgust" from members of the mineral community are streaming in, from important collectors and dealers......Shame on you Dr. Woodside.....

Received at 11:00
"......On a plus, I don’t think mindat is the end all. And I don’t think it makes and breaks a dealer. If this guy wants to air dirty laundry, then maybe you should submit a well thought out reply. And if he does not print your reply, then it may be time for a lawyer. I found the entire letter disgusting. If he had put that much effort into learning about minerals, he probably would have stayed out of trouble. To many people are blaming dealers for their own mistakes. A lot of this is the pot calling the kettle black.

11:01 tonight....

He sounds like a crank who made up a lot of lies to make his story fit. Actually he sounds like an idiot with more money that brains (for awhile).

I really don’t think that belonged on mindat. Is this one of the guys who trys to correct species based on photos? With so little experience why is he even part of mindat. Shouldnt they have seasoned collectors and dealers.

I don’t really like any of the mindat people. I think they are a little full of themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2009 05:44AM by Joseph Freilich.

personally.....i love mindat. and the people..

And, just to make sure my comments were not misunderstood....I have the highest respect for the integrity and high standards of Rob Lavinsky, Dan Weinrich, Ross Lilly , Larry Conklin, Stuart Wielnsky and the others that were mentioned in the feedback I reported....what is sad is the wholesale accusations against my friends and colleagues in the mineral business, who devote their time, effort and energies to pleasing their clients...and at great cost to their personal lives and families.....And I am quite proud to be a faithful supporter of mindat, ( and of the fine and dedicated staff) to which I have devoted countless hours and energy to improve as best as I know how...

Just so everyone is aware of the facts, Dr Rob Woodside is a manager on mindat.org and has been for many years. Joe Freilich has contributed a large number of high-quality mineral photographs to mindat and has been a frequent contributor to our forums. Neither are people I would particularly like to upset.

Because Rob's management role, he has discussed this issue with the management group in detail before choosing to publish the history of this sorry tale. We, as a management group, do not believe there are any conflicts of interest in this case and support the right of Rob to try to obtain a satisfactory conclusion. There have ongoing attempts for a great while to try to resolve this amicably behind the scenes, but Joe has failed to answer one simple question - when will he repay the money?

Recently Joe has been leaving messages on mindat and contacting me to say that Rob is refusing to talk to him. I made it clear to Joe when he asked me about this that far from Rob refusing to reply, it was because Joe was insisting that Rob contact him on the telephone to discuss this issue, but Rob is (quite rightly, in my mind) insisting that all communication on this matter now be done in writing so that when (I don't think it's a matter of 'if' any more) this goes to court there is a full history of what was promised and when.

I personally think that Rob has already been far too patient in this matter - there's no way I would have left something like this go on for so long. I fully support Rob's right to post the reports of his problems here, I also support the right for Joe to respond with his side of the story.

We will be careful when moderating this thread. We will remove or edit any messages that contain accusations that cannot be proven, anything using offensive language or anything we suspect is posted through a shill account - but other than this I hope we can let both sides present their sides to this argument unhindered. However, once we hear the matter has been resolved we will permanently close this thread. I want to make sure that this issue is treated 100% fairly.

For those who think discussions like this have no place on mindat, I'm afraid I have to disagree. Some of you may find it 'uncomfortable' that these matters are being discussed in public (and I have to agree, I would much rather this was dealt with in private), but I think it's absolutely critical that for the overall health of our community there is a place for people to raise these issues and look for help in resolving them (once all private avenues have been exhausted). I just hope that these sorts of issues don't raise their ugly heads too often - I would much rather be discussing minerals than discussing problems such as this.

I am happy to hear your feedback about this issue and in particular what you feel Mindat's role should be in cases like this - feel free to email me directly if you'd like to raise your views in confidence (and thank you for those who have already done that overnight).

Jolyon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2009 08:32AM by Jolyon Ralph.

Jolyon,

I have the upmost respect for you and all the other managers here at Mindat, but there is a time and place for everything. And the forum is not the place for this. This is a forum for mineral lovers, not lovers of the Gerry Springer show. If Rob and Joe has a problem with one another, it should be taken care of in private, it can be quiet embarassing for both partys. It all seems rather childish. Now if Joe is guilty of stealing, or owes money, or what ever the problem is, then yes I believe it is nessecary to warn others, but not until it is proven. I'm sure that all of us, one time or another have been in both of their shoes, but would never want our bickerings to be public as this.

P.S. But really, I love this site

Thanks Jamison,

As I said before, we all tried very hard to resolve this in private before, out of frustration realising the only way this would ever get resolved is by bringing into the public domain. Had it been possible to resolve in private, it would have been by now.

Jolyon

I wish to withdraw my comment at this stage.

Craig.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2009 03:36AM by Craig Mercer.

Being a disinterested observer with no interactions with either of the parties, I see it like this. It is to be the absolute last step before legal action would be taken. It seems that a rather complete account has been posted. I would hesitate to say that the administrators are taking sides. It seems more like the evidence is pointing in a certain direction-I notice that one party has called the claims slanderous (given that they're a matter of a record it would technically be libel, but this is splitting hairs); however, the usual standard of libel is that it is not based on fact, and we've been provided substantial documentation to the contrary. That is not to say there isn't any bias, because, of course, bias is human- and to that end we need to understand that the administrators are also entitled to an opinion as long as it doesn't create conflicts of interest. Given that the administrator who posted this thread has recused himself from dealing with it in an administrative capacity, and the others seem to advocate transparency and posting of responses for both sides, I think that it would be hard to claim it's unfair. Once the law is brought into it, liabilities are increased and legal fees are paid (and, in the end, legal fees could be a whole lot of mineral specimens). So I think that in the most egregious cases and/or those of greatest interest to the community, attempts at arbitration using the Mindat community's extensive collective experience (and wide range of opinions) is a fair option. This option should not be routine or used in equivocal cases- but given that Mindat is one of the most widely-reaching fora of mineral collecting protection of the hobby and hobbyists should be as important as dissemination of information.
In any case, that's my opinion, and I hope that this can, in the end, be resolved in a harm-reduction manner to mutual satisfaction,
EMJ

I disagree with Craig and Jamison. Perhaps, yet another forum just for disputes is in order? Looking at the amount of time involved, it looks like Joe is in the wrong. Just my two cents worth.

Craig,

I'm glad you've had nothing but good experiences with this dealer. I'm sure there are many others in the same situation. However that doesn't excuse the fundamental issue here, that a refund was promised and never provided for a quite significant amount of money. Sadly legal actions are usually only a good way of making lawyers richer rather than righting an injustice, hence the hope that common sense will prevail and that Joe will resolve things with Rob (and others) in a way that's satisfactory to everyone - and then this thread will close.

Jolyon

Being one of the many managers here on mindat I have watched this thing with Joe grow for a long time. For a long time it has been evident to the managers on Mindat that Joe has been using the site to troll for customers, but he did post good pictures and he kept it to a low key, so we sort of put up with it. Some of us are mineral dealers, like Joe but would never think of trying to use our involvement with mindat to hunt up customers like Joe. We did think he was sort of a cheapskate for not paying for advertising like the rest of the dealers. Bob has posted the facts, which everyone can read if they have the interest, and I found they made interesting reading. Needless to say I fully support the actions Bob and the management of mindat have taken thus far.

Rock Currier
Crystals not pistols.

Hello,

This is a big issue and Mindat is precisely the forum to air out this type of issue. Consumers should not get the short end of the stick when mineral dealers do not hold up their end of the bargain. I, personally, never purchased a mineral from Freilich because I can't afford them; However, I have purchased specimens from other Mindat advertisers and never had a problem when I purchased or returned a specimen.

For those of you criticizing Mindat and who seem to be minimizing the amount of money involved, I ask you this: What if you were the person who got shafted? Would you be so understanding and so compassionate? I doubt it!

Let me follow up Rock's post by saying that I would treat Joe absolutely no differently whether he was or was not a mindat advertiser (although there is a possibility in extreme cases such as this I would refuse advertising and refund money). But I certainly don't have a problem that Joe is not a paid advertiser. As far as I'm concerned if people want to advertise I'm happy for them to do so, but I'm not desperate for new customers, I have a good selection of very good advertisers who I'm happy can benefit from the advertising.

Jolyon

Being a lawyer, I read this with profound interest. My opinion? Doesn't matter and it hasn't been asked for. What I will say is these disputes, in my view should never be aired on a public forum. My wife is moderator of a board made up of afficionados of a certain well known, very high end handbag. She belongs to several other boards where like minded people discuss their passions for this brand. Inevitabley, a dispute breaks out over a significant amount of money. Discussion of the dispute is quickly taken private so management can hash it out. An outcome, usually in the form of news of a person being banned from a site and the reasons therefore, is the only news that is posted publically and no comments are permitted. Perhaps that seems harsh but it cuts down on the piling on phenomena and the need to micro- moderate posts. Furthermore, people can read the result and caviat emptor. If you don't like the decision management made, tough.

What to do here. Jolyon, you seem to have reached the end of the road with what your team can do for these two aggrieved individuals. Therefore, either, you must, as owner of the site, put an end to the discussion, ban someone, or spend precious time moderating several threads that will unlikely result in satisfaction for anyone other then allowing folks to exercise their ability to out do one another in the logic department. I like the way the gentleman was thinking above re arbitration type proceeding but unless it is binding, it is of little use and not what your board's mission is as I understand it.

Lastly, I have to say I disagree with the suggestion for a Dispute Resolution Forum. Such a forum, open to public viewing is no different then slowing down to look a car wreck. Any such forum should be private and particiaption limited to management and the parties only. To do otherwise just leads to idle gossip which isn't good for anyone.

The little guy here with my 2 cents into this. Its sucks to feel like you have been used or taken advantage of hell it will even make a person mad.

But you have two adults who through personal liking went into a business transaction that has not worked out the way either of them expected it to go. They have sent voluminous amounts of emails at one another in an attempt to get their point across and to get their just dues back. They are quite obviously pissed at one another and have reached the point that more communications between each other is not doing anything, but muddling up the water. Its has reached a point now where they both need arbitration to take place. But this cannot involve any of us here in mindat because we do have relationships with both of these individuals, be they good be they bad. We here at mindat just by being involved with mindat have become involved in this transaction.

It saddens me to see two adults act like 6yo boys and fight over who gets to squish the bug they just found, you both know what was expected in your dealings with each other. You both need to MAN UP and and finish this between yourself without trying to draw up sides. If you cant work it out between each other you need to take this to arbitration if that means taking it to court and having a judge settle it then do it. Quit the name calling and the finger pointing, that's not settling anything.

I for one have a great deal of respect for many of the member here on mindat most of which I have never met in person and wouldn't be able to identify if asked. I come here because its a great asset I use in my learning about minerals. It saddens me to see members fighting with one another or trying to draw up sides.

And like i said in my first post technically what has taken shape is a version of mail fraud. I think it would be the best if both Rob Woodside and Joseph Freilich settle this now.

Byron/byronrks


Ps wow thats alot of money for a rock just remember that thought, just a rock.

I say let ‘Judge Judy’ sort it out !! Can I have permission to use this to write a soap story ?

Seriously, like Evan I have no knowledge of either parties, all comments made so far do have valid points. There is no evidence of any bias from the management totally professional, as was Rob Woodside in his approach to get a refund, as I see it, there’s only one person hear that’s not acted in a professional manner & doing their reputation harm !

A suggestion for an alternative solution to those in support of Joseph, you pay the refunds & then collect from Joseph at a later date, show some compassion & help him out like he did for Mr. XXXX back in 1997 !

Jolyon,

I do understand that this difficult issue has been aired here as a last resort, even if the thread might have been placed under the column for "frauds". But I also sympathize with those members of Mindat who would like to see such disputes being solved elsewhere. The main reason for accepting this discussion here is not the position of Rob as a Mindat manager, but the fact that the dealer in question has been maintaining a very high profile in Mindat. I was glad to read the posting of Rock where he discloses that the management has been aware of the way many Mindat threads have been (ab)used for specimen marketing and for trolling for new customers. It has been very evident to me and probably also to other users wondering why certain dealers have these special privileges. I am not sure that "posting good pictures" should be a good enough reason for "putting up" with that in the future.
After reading he published correspondance between the parties involved, I really give Rob all my sympathy. You have been unbelievably patient. Even if such problems is by no means representative for my experience with mineral dealers, this is certainly a business with many different personalities. I have only rarely been active in the "high-end" segment of the mineral market, and then only with dealers I really trust and only when trading specimens for money face-to-face. Only with a few dealers I personally know very well would I consider purchasing specimens worth more than a couple of hundred dollars on the web or with payment up front. I really hope Joe Freilich will honor his promises of returning the money for the damaged specimen and also honor whatever similar obligations he may have towards less influential collectors than Rob Woodside.
Knut



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2009 07:17PM by Knut Eldjarn.