My Dealings with Joseph A. Freilich

Mr. Freilich,
As a person who entered this discussion as a third party, may I suggest that you PLEASE be careful about your rhetoric? The claims that have been made against you have generally been substantiated by documentation that appears to be legitimate. As the Mindat Community, we are a not a legal body, nor do we pretend to be. We are people who enjoy minerals. The only leverage that we have to protect ourselves and our hobby is the court of public opinion and the dissemination of information- and to that end, may I suggest that your responses thus far have not addressed the key issues that have been made regarding excessive postponement of compensation, but have rather been name-calling and veiled threats. You are not doing yourself a favour by polarising this issue further, potentially alienating any clients you would hope to have in the future. There may be any number of personal reasons that you have had difficulty fulfilling financial arrangements, and it would also seem that people have been very understanding of them, whatever they may be- I for one am very sad that this series of events has come to this necessary point. Because our interests are in minerals, this community can be very understanding and forgiving, as long as any legal issues are resolved (e.g. unfortunately there is still the issue of compensation). You are probably losing far more indirectly than you are directly by posting vitriol without meaningful rebuttal. PLEASE keep that in mind as you deal further with this issue in public fora. I am not saying that you should remain silent. Just only post if you have some evidence or justification beyond emotional appeals.
PLEASE
Regards,
Evan

Joe

I'll tell you that I'm glad, as many others are I'm sure, that through the goodness of Jolyon and his Mindat site....

I won't become one of your next victims !

Why don't you just do the right thing ?

Wayne Corwin

Hi Rob, Colin

I would appreciate knowing the recent details to which Jolyon referred.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

Joe, I will gladly apologise to you if it means you will refunded the monies, if that makes you feel better.

My young daughter is on a mission to read all of the mindat forum entries. Recently and again today she ran across this thread. Her primary interest is in the sciences of mineralogy, chemistry, crystallography, and geology. But this thread has given us much to talk about not related to the sciences, topics such as business, buying and selling on the internet, and the concept of the court of public opinion. But today, this thread yielded a whole new topic for us to discuss: ad hominum attacks. I had to explain that this is a common tool to use when one has no other argument but still has the need to "win."

"Thanks" for all the educational opportunities this thread has provided.

Bob

Joe's last email to me was sent twice, possibly for emphasis or maybe in a senior's moment. It just said:

"and ever post you put on mindat, or elsewhere, is another nail in your coffin"

So on pain of death, here is what's been happening.

First of all I want to thank all those who have posted, emailed, and PMed about this sad affair. I really appreciate your tolerance and concern for this matter. One odd feature of the feedback is that so far everyone has said things got resolved, though with unpleasant difficulty. Perhaps no one wants to admit they are as trusting or as stupid as me. Perhaps this is why Joe is not in jail and maybe he will come up with the cash on Monday, but I doubt it.

All that has happened is simply more of the same. I am constantly amazed at how close one can come to paying a debt without actually doing so. In reponse to the email reported in the article, Joe replied:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: May-28-09 5:49 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Receipt of e mail

I have received your email and will respond shortly
Joseph

That was on May 28 and Joe was silent until June 6, when I completed the article and sent him this:

From: Rob Woodside <rwmw@telus.net>
To: gemcrystals@aol.com
Sent: Sat, Jun 6, 2009 2:09 pm
Subject: Receipt of e mail
Hi Joe,
Thanks for your reply. In view of it, I put together this article:

[www.mindat.org]

on our dealings.

Since our last letter to you I realize that you owe me $7200. and not just 7 grand. Thus I would emend our last missive as follows:

Dear Mr Freilich,

You have owed us respectively $7000 and $2000 for so long as to cast doubt on your probity. Please remit these amounts to us by valid cheque drawn on your own bank account as follows:

$4000 to Dr Woodside and $1000 to Mr Manlove by 15 June 2009.

$3200 to Dr Woodside and $1000 to Mr Manlove by 15 August 2009.

Should you fail to do this we will have you named on Mindat and proceed to further action against you.
Yours sincerely,
CM.
RW.

I would go on to add that since you have all the emails pertaining to these matters, you can please wire to our banks the above amounts rather than mailing us the cheques as time is getting short. If we do not have the first instalment by June 15, 2009, I will publish the article at Mindat that day. If you make the first payments on time but not the second, the Article will appear at Mindat on Aug 15.

Have a great summer,
Rob Woodside,
Colin Manlove

By now you are aware of Joe's volatility and can see his first reaction posted as his comment at the end of the article. Joe complained bitterly to Jolyon, but steadfastly refused to pay his debt. Colin wanted to give Joe another couple of days so the article didn't appear until June 18. Joe had from May 28 to June 18 to prepare for this and still his volatility got the better of him as you can see from his intial postings on this thread. Then surprisingly this arrived on June 19:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: June-19-09 2:59 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Our Issue

Rob, I am working on a resolution of the debt and will contact you very soon....joe

Two days later this arrived:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: June-21-09 7:36 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net; evelyn@manlove.fsnet.co.uk; jolyon@mindat.org
Subject: Letter

Dr. Woodside and Mr. Manlove,
A letter by fed ex is being mailed to you tomorrow, in an effort to proceed with the conclusion of our conflict. As I would have preferred email or phone, that seems disagreeable to you...J. Freilich

cc: Jolyon Ralph

As Jolyon pointed out, there was no point in engaging Joe in anything other than payment details and then only in writing. Anything else merely gives Joe more weasel room.Then on the 25th this arrived:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: June-25-09 5:35 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net; jolyon@mindat.org; gemcrystals@aol.com
Subject: Payment

I am sending two cashiers checks by fedex this week,, for 1/2 of the amount due, with the balance following immediately after some simple issues are agreed upon by all parties..please inform the fellow in the UK that this includes him...( the check), and a response on your part would be appreciated...Thanks, Joe Freilich

To which I replied:

From: Rob Woodside <rwmw@telus.net>
To: gemcrystals@aol.com
Sent: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 11:27 am
Subject: RE: Payment
Joe, I strongly suggest you send the full amount. Please use the address below: ...

Now that Joe saw I was talking to him again, he wanted Colin's address and emailed Jolyon some more and five days later on June 30 sent this:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: June-30-09 9:17 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net; evelyn@manlove.fsnet.co.uk; jolyon@mindat.org
Subject: Re: Payment

Rob,, Colin... I decided to wire the funds instead..i have no idea how long it takes to appear in your account, but check tomorrow pm..a letter was sent separately...Joe

cc: jolyon ralph


Of course the letter never arrived and the bank account that Joe was wiring the money to maintained its constant 8 cent balance. So I sent this:

From: Rob Woodside <rwmw@telus.net>
To: gemcrystals@aol.com; evelyn@manlove.fsnet.co.uk; jolyon@mindat.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 12:41 pm
Subject: RE: Payment
Joe, nothing has arrived yet. Please e-mail the tracking number of your wire when you send it.
Rob

Having sent nothing Joe was not surprised and replied:

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: July-03-09 10:03 AM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Payment

hello, I am not surprised. I am having a lot of difficulties with wires...i sent one to Paris 14 days ago that has not arrived...will get the info and send it...Joe

A colleague who thought I had let Joe off too easy with my last email sent me this:

As far as I understand you cant "have problems" with a wire.

That is why you pay the bank a FEE to send it for you. The only time I did it,..., it cost me ~$16 and was there within 24hours. It is a deposit - unless the bank steals the money or you put in the incorrect bank info it can't go missing.

If he sent it he should scan the bank fees reciept.

Post all this, but you might as well tell him you are going to have to sue him....

That seemed like good advice and things had gotten beyond worrying about Joe's volatility, so I replied:

From: Rob Woodside <rwmw@telus.net>
To: gemcrystals@aol.com
Cc: 'Colin Manlove' <evelyn@manlove.fsnet.co.uk>; jolyon@mindat.org
Sent: Fri, Jul 3, 2009 7:47 pm
Subject: RE: Payment
Joe,
As far as I understand you can’t "have problems" with a wire.

That is why you pay the bank a FEE to send it for you. It is a deposit - unless the bank steals the money or you put in the incorrect bank info, it can't go missing.

If you sent it, you should send us a scan or photo of the receipt. This is rapidly turning into more of the same and you will be hearing from my lawyers next week.
Rob

KABOOM!!!

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: July-03-09 5:00 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Payment

shows how little you know about anything having to do with business.....of course you can have delays in wires...I am out of town, many miles from my bank and home....you are going to have to wait until monday...but, after receiving your arrogant and ignorant email just now, I am going to call my bank tomorrow morning and ask them to draw bank the wire if possible...and then you will be hearing from my lawyers....you have no idea what i have planned for you....start saving your pennies.....


And finally I got two copies of: :

From: gemcrystals@aol.com [mailto:gemcrystals@aol.com]
Sent: July-03-09 5:03 PM
To: rwmw@telus.net
Subject: Re: Payment

and ever post you put on mindat, or elsewhere, is another nail in your coffin

The rest of the explsions have been posted here. As I said it is just more of the same.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2009 09:18PM by Rob Woodside.

This is getting unbelievable. Even to someone as trusting and patient as I, it has become clear that JF seems to have no intention of paying his debts. Rob and Colin may want to take this issue out of the court of public opinion and into a real court. Jolyon, are you considering banning JF from mindat ? Does anyone still deal with JF ?
Bill

This would make a good episode of a courtroom drama or one of those expose shows that features ponzi scams and the like.

What a "drama". Even on holidays it keeps one alerted, or at least interested! Thank you Mindat people for helping to protect us collectors from such individuals!
Quite obviously, the guy simply does not have enough cash, so any action against him may not result in much more than a moral legal victory. Sad enough for his victims, I really fell sorry for them, but at least, thanks Mindat, there won t be more victims.
Probably we get to know here the first prominent dealer victim of a potentially crashing "mineral price bubble", by the way one of the very last speculative bubbles that have survived up to date yet. More to come.

As much as you all may well agree with the reasons for why we posted this account online, I think now it is better to not post too many comments on this thread unless you have any specific new information that could help solve this issue.

We are not here to try and destroy anyone's livelihoods or to antagonize people, we are trying to get money refunded for Rob and Colin - and that's it. Once that's resolved the thread will be closed.

jolyon

Prior to this thread I had never posted on this message board . Someone that was familiar with my experiance with Joe Freilich alerted me to the thread . I just couldn't remain silent because I knew what he had done to me.

This man contacted me and the name sounded familiar , and then he mentioned "the freilich collection" and "the mineralogical record". This was to instill confidence in me to send him some specimens. My reply to him was that I was busy and that why couldnt he just pick some things out in Tucson . Joe's reply to this " that he wasn't sure he was going to Tucson" and that since Christmas was just a month away , qoute " The Christmas cash would come in handy".

We had a firm agreement for the material to be paid for in 30 days or returned at the end of the 30 days. Joe disputes that but he his lying.

After 45 days he said he was busy with qoute " invoices and such" and would immediately send payment. 14 days later another excuse , and then another. Then , it was that he would see me in Tucson. Once I found out about him , in hind sight , Joe was taking a glee in his falsehoods and cheery promises of payment soon . A sick enjoyment actually .
I posted the viscious truth immediately , not after getting the rocks back . Joe is full of lies. A predator.

But you see , with me he has picked the wrong one . He doesnt realized it yet , but he has .

Joe has been sending out private messages to people and to dealers attacking mindat and me personally for allowing this story to be posted here.

I didn't really want to dignify it with a response, because the truth of the matter is simply a matter of fact which you can judge for yourself from the email record of both sides, however I've been asked by several people to say something, so I will.

Let me be clear - I am getting NOTHING out of this - all I can do is lose, because regardless of what happens, some people will dislike the fact that we have got involved at all, and now my name is being dragged through the mud over this incident and I've been compared to both Hitler and to McCarthy in Joe's emails (!!!).

If you got one of the emails, you can make up your own mind about what you think. All I want, and I'll say it yet again, is for Rob and Colin to be treated properly and to be refunded.

Jolyon

ps.

I'll raise another issue that has been brought up by a couple of people, that is whether Colin's original request for a partial refund was fair or not. We haven't addressed this before because the fact is at the moment that Joe took the rock back and hasn't returned the money OR the rock.

However, in my view, if a rock is sold as something that it is not, you could ask for a full refund (although Colin would have been far better to have got third-party analysis rather than sending the rock back to Joe). But after the time involved you can't go back to a dealer and say "I could have got this cheaper somewhere else, give me a partial refund". That's just not right.

So, in my mind at the moment, were Joe to send Colin's rock back to him instead of the payment, I would have regarded that as a fair settlement (but not in the case of Rob, where it's clear he was offered his money back if he didn't like it).

Colin may very well not agree with me on this point, but that is my personal view. And please don't get confused by this - just because Colin's original request for a partial refund was (in my opinion) wrong, it doesn't mean Joe has any excuse to take the rock back and NOT return either the rock or the money!

Jolyon,

May I first say how grateful I am for you taking a stand over this. It is worth doing, because Joe is only the most blatant cheat among several other dealers, and should Rob and I get our money back via the law, it will show others that it can be done, and cheaply, and that they need not simply let sleeping rodents lie.

As for my own dealings with Joe I should say I have had abusive exchanges with him that I have not reported here because they really do not serve the case. But I may report is that what finally turned me against him was his use of my granddaughter to make me more open to buying his minerals. In 2006 just before her first birthday, Susan caught a rare form of pneumococcal meningitis, and although she survived the operation to save her life and her limbs, her brain and stem cells were permanently damaged. During this time Joe befriended me, and told me he had got the congregation in his local 'temple' to pray daily for her, for which my son and daughter-in-law were grateful. But he then he got into the habit of writing emails briefly asking how Susan was before offering me a mineral, usually in the thousands of dollars. Most of these I rejected, but not all, even though I knew the prices were inflated. I eventually began to suspect what he was doing, but I could not wholly believe it. Now, with my knowledge of his fraud, I do. I have recently told him I could forgive almost anything of him but this commercial use of the pain of one dear to me, and he has told me he thinks I am sick and deranged, and that every day he went to his temple and prayed for my granddaughter on his knees. I will present the correspondence here if anyone wants it.

As for my asking for a part-refund as well as the return of the original specimen, this was based simply on the fact that Joe had sold me for $2000 a fraudulent 'unique' specimen which then turned out to be a common species worth no more than $600 or so. Joe of course rejected this path. I want to state again that consumer rights extend to two years on purchases, and there is not a question of 'poor old Joe having to stump up' after 20 months (which was the period before I returned the piece).

So far as Joe returning the mineral to me is concerned, that option is closed, as he then gave me a choice between taking the mineral back or accepting the return of the original $2000. Naturally I took the latter course, to which he is now committed. I would add that he probably could not return the original specimen anyway, since as I have reported he told me while we were still negotiating he had found someone prepared to pay $3500 for it.

Mr. Manlove,
Might I suggest that the first section of your most recent post, whilst detailing something very unfortunate (incidentally, I myself have a number of neurological problems that are a result of meningitis ten years ago), do not have a place in the assessment of the current cases? It is surely bound to create a more toxic atmosphere, which is only pouring gas on the fire that is going on. The second part, talking about the specifics of the compensation, was more useful and less subjective. I wrote a similar open letter to Mr. Freilich a few days ago. I just hope that this issue can be resolved without people trying to destroy the reputations of others, as everyone, accuser and accused, will be the worse for it. I understand that parties on both sides are upset (and based on the preponderance of evidence, your side more justifiably so, in my opinion), but it does nothing to help sort the issue out to call names, regardless of how reprehensibly the person behaved.
Regards,
Evan

First of all, another untruth by Mr. Manlove is put forth, as can be expected. Jewish people do not pray on their knees, so, I never said that to Mr. Manlove. How about showing the thread that e mail Mr. Manlove? The fact that I showed compassion for his granddaughter, which I sincerely did, and do...is a matter that Mr. Manlove is unable to accept..that is strictly his emotional failing...I have had many such unfortunate cases of illness in my own family, and to hear Mr. Manloves suffering in this case, and a poor innocent child , truly broke my heart. I did pray for her daily for weeks, as did the members of my synagogue...That Mr. Manlove could have the cold blooded instincts to mix this display of empathy up with a business strategy...is certain very depressing.......for anyone who ever shares prayers and compassion with another human being......as I said to him in an email last week.......How do you know what is in my heart Mr. Manlove?

Jolyon,

May I first say how grateful I am for you taking a stand over this. It is worth doing, because Joe is only the most blatant cheat among several other dealers, and should Rob and I get our money back via the law, it will show others that it can be done, and cheaply, and that they need not simply let sleeping rodents lie.


and as the mineral dealer community refers to Mr. Manlove....he is a "professional injured party"...having used mindat for nothing more than a collection and complaint service....have you made a single technical post Mr. Manlove....how about one single photograph?

Folks,
i read this topic for some time now and i wasn´t really glad that such an issue appeared in public on mindat as i think that this site should be dedicated to other things mainly but the topic rose - i discussed that with Jolyon also at the Ste. Marie show recently.

Reading the last posts (Jolyons about Joe mailing people and dealers, Colins and Evans) i am kind of urged to say something.

@Colin - even if you don´t might like this ... i share Jols opinion about a partial refund after 20 months because it is very common that one (including me) may have paid a lot for a specimen and a year later may find better for 1/10th of price .. thats the usual risk you may have if there are new finds in larger amounts etc .. i remember the first cavansites .. phew ..
I also agree that you should have asked a third party to do an analysis - anyway ... but either money back or specimen back - so Colin should have at least the specimen he payed for. As far as i can read this did not happen.

@Joe ... i would be really careful in your writing ... up to now i had decided NOT to expose my experiences but your posts are blaming others instead of being a bit more cooperative.... and IMHO you should be. You may remember that you purchased some items from me on a well known mineral auction platform ... it took me 3 months to get my money including mails from you that you had sent the money by snail mail, that you had been screwed etc. ... fortunately i ONLY ship AFTER receipt (and i also refund instantly if someone is unhappy as i am a collector in first place and i know how frustrating a 'bad' buy can be).... i kept the mailings so you won´t be able to deny. You paid finally .. and so you should do with Rob. I accept it if one may have a cash problem due to whatever .. if one tells me - and i am patient. But starting to blame others for my fault is not the right way.

Please get this issue settled .. it damages more than it should, and MUCH more of your reputation than that of anyone else you may want to blame.... and although i am not lucky with this procedure i now think that it was necessary that this has gone public,

regards
Roger

I didn't want to comment on this forum again, but I just have to.

This was not the way to handle this problem. The reason it's taken so long to resolve, is simply because it was done the wrong way. We have justice systems in place that have been created to deal with issues such as this. I know solicitors are expensive, but this is the exact reason we have them.

This thread has caused a lot of damage, and will continue to do so both personally (Joe) etc, but more importantly to Mindat. I have read all areas of the discussion, and there seems to faults on all sides. One thing I still can't understand is how someone could verify paying $7200 for that Pyromorphite, you can see damage, and it basically just looks bodgy.

All in all the thread now seems to be degrading, getting personal, with nasty attacks that really aren't relevant. I predict if let go on further, these will escalate and eventually get out of hand.

Lastly Jolyon, you are to be commended for putting yourself and your site on the line for these guy's, a decision that I hope turns out for the best.

My thoughts go out to Colin,Joe and Rob. This must be taking a hell of a toll on you guy's, both mentally and physically.

Craig.

Oddly enough, I find myself agreeing with Craig. In my opinion, I believe this issue is turning into a snipe attack and needs to be taken out of public forum and resolved privately.

Before I say any more, can I mention that Rob has received the first part of the money he was owed as part of an agreed settlement plan. Because Joe has paid and I previously said I thought he had no intention of doing so, I must as I promised apologise.

Joe, I apologise for saying you had no intention of paying. Your actions have proven otherwise, and for that I am very grateful.


> This was not the way to handle this problem.
>The reason it's taken so long to resolve, is simply because it was done the wrong way.

Actually, the only reason we posted it here was because it was NOT being resolved any other way (and solicitors would not have been appropriate in this case). The proof is that a working settlement is now in hand, and that hopefully it should all be finished soon.

Because of this significant positive step by Joe, I am closing this thread now. We will only reopen it if there are significant new developments to report.

Jolyon