How to... photos from museum

Hello everyone,
I am fairly new to the Mindat and I am not sure if I can post photos of specimens from museum exhibits. I have seen some photos here from museum collections (looking homemade not professional..through the glass etc.). Are they posted by museum staff or with permission? Or just visitors with cameras? So, is it possible to post a photo - made with permission from museum (e.g. our Czech National Museum allows You for 50 CZK = 2 Euros take a photo without flash and stative)? What is mindat opinion?

I'm not a lawyer, but in my opinion a photo belongs to the person who takes it (or pays for it to be taken, in the case of commercial photography), not to the owner of the specimen. Just like a building - If you take a photo of an interesting building on holidays, the building owner can't stop you from posting the photo on your facebook page.

Mindat is happy to get photos of specimens in museums, whether taken by the public or by museum staff - Just look, for example, at the many nice museum specimens photographed by Rock Currier for our Best Minerals forum. Whether or not the museum gives permission for photography is another matter - some do, some don't - and is a question to be resolved between you and the museum. I would think most museums would be happy to have their specimens photographically publicized (with appropriate caption credits, of course), as museums need all the publicity they can get, to attract visitors (and donors).

Yes. The photo belongs to the photographer, not to the owner of the object that is photographed.

The exception is when you are photographing something that is an artistic creation, such as a statue or a painting, in which case the original copyright in the item must be protected. It could be argued that a photo of a group of specimens in a display (for example a cabinet display at a mineral show) is a valid artistic creation and as such could be protected by copyright, but this issue hasn't come up as far as I can tell yet.

But if you're taking a photo of a single natural mineral specimen, then regardless of whether the owner has given you permission or not you are fine uploading it to mindat.

Some museums do not allow photography, but that is a separate issue to the ownership of the photo, and does not affect your ability to upload them here. Essentially if you can get away with it, then good luck. I've never seen the reason why some museums feel they own the photons that are bouncing off their specimens.

Jolyon

It does seem to be counter productive for museums to turn down free publicity for their holdings (they usually are supported by admission charges and donors), but it might not be too smart to provide their lawyers with evidence by posting photos on the web.

Hi,

This is an interesting discussion. My lawyer cousin tells me there are no restrictions on photographing anything, on public view, unless there is a posted restriction as you would see in art galleries and other public venues. For example, the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History allows photos but does not allow the use of tripods. I assume the ban on tripods is more of a safety issue than an attempt to restrict videotaping. I have never been stopped from photographing or taping with my hand held cameras in any museum. Of course, I comply with all posted restrictions, as would most people.

I own a copy of Mineral Museums of Europe and wonder what problems, if any, the authors encounted when the published that fine book???

Best wishes,

Joe

When I was in Moscow recently, with one specific exception I was given permission to photograph at all the museums I visited (reports on mindat eventually, when I have time!)

The specific exception was the Diamond Fund exhibition at the Kremlin, where not only are cameras not permitted but you have to go through two sets of metal detectors, so you can't even take your mobile phone in.

Jolyon

I don't think you can get away with uploading a photo when the permission to do so has not been given.
If they have the right to deny taking photos, then to do so and publish them is equivalent of saying "I don't care about your legal rights".
I would expect that because you are dealing with another person's/museum's property you are supposed to ask just as you ask before you enter a mine and do not just "guess" that the owner does not care about it.

Amir

It's certainly very impolite to take photos when permission has been denied, but legally the photos still belong to you. The owners of a museum could ask you to leave if you were taking photos without permission, but could not ask you to delete the photographs from your camera.

The issue here is not about that however, but the question was whether we can upload photographs taken at a museum where permission for photography was granted (or where photography is generally allowed but no specific rules are posted).

The answer is clear - if you own the photograph you are free to upload it here. Please mention where the specimen was seen of course!

Jolyon

Also, I think it would be terribly rude to take photos without permission of minerals in a private collection. But I think the rules should be different for public collections in publically-funded museums.

Museums should not feel that they 'own' the items they display. They are just the custodians of these items for us, the public, who employ them. The right to enjoy these items, including taking photos (when that does not get in the way of other people who want to enjoy them, so I can understand restrictions prohibiting flash and/or tripod), should be enshrined in law, in my opinion.

Private museums are a different matter altogether. And there is a grey area about, for example, specimens being displayed by a mineral dealer in a public mineral show. Are these fair game? or not? I noticed an increasing number of dealers with 'no photography allowed' signs at Munich, but of those who did not, the majority seemed to be very happy for people to photograph specimens. The main concern with dealers wasn't the rights of images, but that photographers were getting in the way of genuine potential customers (assuming that the photographer isn't a genuine customer, of course!).

I try to ask before I take photographs, but it's not always easy if the dealers are busy with customers.

Jolyon

Hi,
I have been requested to not take any photographs in several museums around the world regarding paintings and antiquities. Specifically, this has happened in Athens, Greece and in Taipei, Taiwan. The Taiwanese museum guards almost walked us out of the museum when my wife's flash went off in a national art museum. There were signs stating "no pictures" in several languages. She tried to sneak one anyway, and we got caught. So, some museums are pretty touchy about it. I have not tried it in mineral museums, however.

Sadly this is usually because they want to maximize profits from selling books/posters etc rather than any legitimate reason for protecting specimens, although of course especially with paintings (and of course proustite!) you don't want flash photography on a continuous basis.

I think all museums should allow photography if there is no flash and no tripod. The chances of taking a photo to threaten their commercial image libraries under these conditions are slim, but it gives people the ability to take away more permanent reminders of their visit.

Jolyon

Concerning museums:

My largest annoyance has simply been the fact that I don't have a camera that allows me to focus past the glass. That can be remedied by getting a new camera of course.

I can see in a museum with paintings how they would prohibit photography because the UV light in the flashes can contribute to deterioration of the painting over time. Some of these paintings have been on display for centuries and the cumulative effect of small environmental influences has caused them to display an amount of decay...such as cracks, fading, and so on. I think the Mona Lisa has some warping issues.

Some museums are a little more liberal on these matters than others. At the Getty, nervous volunteers stand quietly as people get centimeters from the paintings so see if they can see brush strokes, while at LACMA, they have large marble tables which keep you quite a few feet away in front of the paintings, and god forbid you lean on them in the dim light to get a closer view, lest the laws of the universe breakdown and something physically impossible happens.

I suppose some museums limit photography simply because it could pose a security risk. In some countries they're very paranoid about things like this even if you want to photograph something seemingly mundane. Unless you have photographed something classified though, or protected in some way by certain copyright or trademark or other laws, you own hold the copyright and may do with it what you please.

I am glad from what I read. If they would have all their specimens accessible on the internet than I would not bother with photos (without proper light and stative). But for example Czech National Museum has exactly 0 specimens online. At least they put couple of them once in 10 years in some book and of course I like to go there often.
But as detailed sources on czech minerals with photos are scarce I will go there with as good camera as I can obtain and will try to put some online. Thanks!

I visited the Narodni in 1987 and was extremely impressed. It is a treasure trove of incredible specimens. I was amused at their display. It was a linear systematic ordering with the best of species first, followed by lesser international pieces followed by the best Czech examples in order of quality. A real shocker was their number one Orpiment specimen. It was an abosultely killer White Caps Wakabayashilite!!! Is that still the number one Orpiment?

Good photos of their best Pribram specimens would be greatly appreciated.

I was very excited by the ROM's touch screens attached to their new display. This is really revolutionary and I was hoping that they would make the touch sceens internet accessible. Sadly this was not to be, but to their credit they have made single, unmagnifiable photos of their specimens available on line for a price.

@Jolyon
I was about to respond like this:
"If they cannot sue you for publishing the images, then they should have no right of forbidding you to take images in the first place.
That simply would not make sense.
It creates a "law of the jungle" situation: if I'm smart enough and manage to take a picture with a hidden camera, there's nothing you can do.
...
"
and a lot of thoughts about the the right to deny other the use of your property etc. etc. I don't want to repeat.

But good luck I have checked and in fact at least in Germany, Switzerland and Austria there's no legal basis for denying others to take an image of an object (images of persons are an entirely different matter), as long as the image is taken on publicly accessible ground, that includes private rooms that are open to the public any time.

Of course one cannot demand that a museum opens their showcases for a better shot, and they have the right to lock things away.

But I am not sure if the fact that museums are not open to the public all the time makes a difference. The law seems to say that photographing in private rooms is allowed as long as these rooms are constantly accessible or the shot is done from public ground.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 08:36PM by Amir C. Akhavan.

I try and get permission to photograph wherever I see specimens, especially when it involves private collections, where I might not be able to get back again to see them. I agree that it is only polite, to ask first.
In response to Jolyon's comment, I have had show dealers open cases to help me take pics, and others , particularly those showing megabuck specimens that may already be sold to a high end client who has allowed them to be displayed, absolutely forbidding photographs, so there is an understandable spectrum of reaction there.
I do have a query, though.
Has anyone successfully taken pics of the specimens in the Natural History Museum in Denver.
None of my photos , and I mean none of them , came out , and that is really unusual. So, when I went back for a second time, I noticed that they had all the glass fronts on a certain angle so that light coming out was distorted in some fashion, or perhaps it was a combination of the spectrum of the lighting combined with angled fronts...???
Is this just a problem I had, or is it a way of preventing good photos from being taken ???
If so, it is a much more effective block than having guards standing around shooing people with cameras away.

To Rob: From what I can remember the exhibit in Czech Narodni museum is the same as it was when I was there for the first time which I can remember (cca 1983 - I was just 9). But I guess the Wakabayashilite is still there. When I looked at the exhibit guide from 1941 - the setup was the same...I think nothing big changed here from 1930s.
I will definitely take pictures of classic Pribram stuff for Mindat community...there will be now a lot of time when I could not go to field with the winter.

@Ray
I don't have any experience with the Natural History Museum in Denver.
But I don't think you can play tricks on a decent DSLR camera
- whatever you see with one eye, your camera can capture it.

The illumination in museums, shows etc. is usually o.k. for looking at specimen under changing perspectives (you move your head), but not o.k. for taking images.
Very often they use point-like light sources and that makes good photos of certain specimen impossible.
So I do only take photos as a reference, not to show the characteristics of a specimen.

If I'm serious about it, I take a tripod and ask if that is o.k. If not, I don't even try.

Aaaah, yes, a decent DSLR camera, well maybe some day I will have one of those..

I take photos to remind me of the specimens I enjoyed at the museum, and to help me learn
more about specimens from specific locations that I don't have
On the other end of the scale [from Denver's Museum collection and for that matter,
the poorly lit collection in the museum in Sydney Australia]
I highly recommend the collection displayed at the
Colorado School of mines. With the exception of the paired rough and cut pieces in the
basement, their pieces are superbly displayed and lit and make great photos.
I go back every year to photograph what else is up on display there..

If you learn to take good photos and take the time to get to know the curators, there is a good chance that they will let you take pictures of what ever you want, in some cases even taking the things out of the cases for you, but that depends on how hard it is to access the display cases. Things may be different today, but back in the 70s the only museum I was not given access to photograph things in and I don't mean just through the glass was the American Museum of Natural History. They had a policy of charging 100 an image if you wanted to take a picture of something in their collection. But you must be willing to make the time and effort to get to know the curators and convince them that you know what you are doing and know your minerals and you should be willing to give them one of the original images or a good copy of each thing you take pictures of. That way they will be getting something out of it.

Rock Currier
Crystals not pistols.