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GeneralMindat toolbar

11th Jul 2011 17:42 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

As of today I am getting a mindat toolbar popping up on the bottom of my screen. I realize that many folks may find this useful, but I have no use for it and actually find it very distracting and annoying, especially when it keeps reappearing after I close it. I can't find a way in Windows or Firefox to make it permanently go away. Can anyone enlighten me or is there a way in mindat I can opt out? I could find nothing on mindat that mentioned that this toolbar would appear or any forum on the topic.

Thanks

11th Jul 2011 18:37 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The mindat toolbar will become an important part of mindat - functions will be available on it that are not available elsewhere, so you cannot and should not hide it.


I know change is sometimes frustrating and things like this can take some time to get used to, but it is important to keep the toolbar or you will be missing out on future functions that are going to be important.


For example, the search boxes at the bottom of the page will eventually disappear to be replaced with the search option on the toolbar.


Very soon you will be able to customize the toolbar to change what is shown and remove items that are of no use to you personally.


Jolyon

11th Jul 2011 18:46 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

"Very soon you will be able to customize the toolbar to change what is shown and remove items that are of no use to you personally. "


Looking forward to that. It would be helpful to have the search entry boxes on the toolbar rather than generating a popup box. Links to particular pages would also be handy to have on the toolbar.

11th Jul 2011 19:17 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

I do appreciate the changes, but can we have a toolbar we can open or close ourselves as needed? A constant pop-up is very distracting especially when I'm focused on adding photos and text.

11th Jul 2011 20:15 UTCTimothy Blackwood

I heartily agree with the distracting nature of a pop-up that constantly comes up after closing it. The idea for a tool bar that can be opened and closed as needed is a good one. Perhaps a simple "Tool Bar" link could be added at the top of each page allowing the user to call it up, use a feature, then close it when finished. Just a thought. :)


Best wishes,

Tim Blackwood

Cohasset, MN, USA

11th Jul 2011 20:30 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Yes, it is extremely irritating to have the toolbar pop up in the middle of something you are reading. With every page view I am deleting the toolbar. I'm glad you and David like it but a big thumbs down from me, not that that goes a long way. Perhaps if we contribute more money, users

can have the option of permanently turn it off?

11th Jul 2011 20:37 UTCFred & Linda Elsnau

I, too, find it an imposition on my screen view. I use a laptop with a screen that is much wider than it is tall and the toolbar reduces my viewing area even more. Since you want it to be "up" all of the time, perhaps an option that lets me reduce it to a shorter length when I'm not using it, or the ability to move it to a vertical position on the side (where I often have blank space anyway) would be possible.


Thanks,

Linda

11th Jul 2011 20:37 UTCAndy Givens

toolbar is downrite annoying yes. i agree..... i think duct tape will fix it though.... >:D<

11th Jul 2011 20:45 UTCPeter Andresen Expert

Pop ups, where? I got the new toolbar at the bottom, where it stay put, and doesen't bother me... could look betther tho...


But I've already tested it to use a picture from the mindat conference with a coment, and that worked well. :)

11th Jul 2011 21:00 UTCGeorge Creighton

Hi


Useing asus lappy win7


Only the top ( blue ) part of the toolbar is visible on all zoom levels at bottom of the screen!


Tried deleting but only to find when changing pages pops up again ( very annoying )


Regards george

11th Jul 2011 21:01 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

The toolbar is showing up in the middle of pictures I'm viewing. And what's more, locality information is being reduced to print size that I can barely see with a magnifying glass.


I now see that the problems I'm having are limited to browsing wth my IPad. The toolbar stays at the bottom on our large computer. I still hate it. I'm spending more time deleting the thing then I am trying to upload pictures and/or information to the database.

11th Jul 2011 21:17 UTCLyla J. Tracy

It is annoying and I don't see that it offers anything of interest to me. If we have made the choice to click it off, it should stay off.

11th Jul 2011 21:20 UTCLuís Martins 🌟

Nice feature, the toolbar. Only one thing: is it possible to have the option to put the toolbar on the top of the page, instead of bottom??

11th Jul 2011 21:22 UTCAndy Givens

hmmm yes, maybe that would make it more apealing to the eye, and not as distracting

good thoughts!

(tu)

11th Jul 2011 21:23 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert

Jolyon Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ...so you cannot and

> should not hide it.


why then not embed it if it's that important?

the annoying thing is to be given an option to close it and then it just pops up again when you change page?


cheers

11th Jul 2011 21:37 UTCPeter Andresen Expert

Remember Jolyon is doing this as a side project beside checking in partisipants to the conference and partying - it will for sure be better when the conference and vodka ends! :)-D

11th Jul 2011 21:49 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Which is all the reason to have rolled it out once the conference ended.

11th Jul 2011 21:51 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

I, for one, welcome our new toolbar overlord.


J/K'ing, these things drive me batty and there is nothing on there that I couldn't find easily before, but kudos again, to giving Faceyspace, Twatter and whatever that "in" thing is. I don't know, I've never been "in" with the cool toolbars.


Why even have a close button? How long does anyone stay on one page?

Eh, might as well just get used to it.


I fear change.

11th Jul 2011 21:53 UTCRock Currier Expert

I find it irritating as well. Its like the damn television where they take up more and more space at the bottom of the image to push various crap in your face that you really don't want to see. Pretty soon half the screen will be taken up with advertising crap. Certainly I think the links to Facebook and twitter are invasive. I got a request about a month ago from face book saying that Alfredo Petrov was requesting that I be a friend of his. I never agree to these requests, but in this case because Alfredo is such a good friend I said OK and was then shunted off to a screen where they were signing me up for Facebook which I reluctantly began to fill out until they started to ask for information that I really felt I didn't want out there on a public forum like Facebook and canceled the process. I then asked Alfredo about it and he said he had not made any such request and that Facebook had gone into his contacts list and sent out a friendship request to all the people on the list without asking him about it. He called it pernicious and I was forced to agree. Call me a grumpy old guy but that's the way I feel. No wonder the simplicity of Google is so refreshing to work with. A very minimum of stuff thrown in your face.

11th Jul 2011 22:00 UTCGeorge Creighton

David Bernstein Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Which is all the reason to have rolled it out once

> the conference ended.


Well said David (tu)


Case of bad timing (td)


Regards george

11th Jul 2011 22:02 UTCPeter Andresen Expert

Just wait until the Google+ have grown into a new social medium monster, Rock...


Perhaps you'll get questions to make friends after a search... Imagine the friends you can get searching for talliban, pyro and other funny stuff! X(

11th Jul 2011 22:11 UTCIbrahim Jameel Expert

I particularly dislike the fact that even though I close it, it opens up again when I navigate to a new page. I understand why it might be useful, but whats wrong with allowing users to close it?

11th Jul 2011 22:22 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

I do believe that Jolyon is intending well and hope he is trying to upgrade the site to make it more useful and I do appreciate that. His professional background gives him access to the latest tools. But from a user perspective, most upgrades just make me relearn how to do the same thing I did before but just in a different way, and so just reduce productivity as I go through the ultimately unnecessary and sometimes frustrating learning curve (where's Yoda?). I like changes that fix problems or increase productivity/efficiency, but I dont see what's broken with the mindat site as it is that this toolbar is currently necessary, perhaps that could have been explained first in a forum on changes. But I know for certain that I have negative interest in linking to Facebook etc., these are internet spy agencies making money mining and selling your private data and intrusively reaching out for ever more, so I dont need those links. I'm praying that they will not to become an important part of mindat, dont know why they need to be on the screen all the time.

11th Jul 2011 22:25 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Justin, probably for the first time you made me laugh. I appreciate the Kent Brockman (Simpsons) reference. If your verbiage was just coincidental, cancel my sort of/kind of compliment.

11th Jul 2011 22:41 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

David, you just crossed an item off my bucket list.


Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

11th Jul 2011 23:49 UTCPeter Szarka

removed

12th Jul 2011 00:30 UTCEric Graff Expert

The pop-up toolbar is distracting, annoying and not appreciated. Thumbs down.

12th Jul 2011 00:38 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

I actually don't mind the toolbar; I believe it could prove a very powerful and useful tool for Mindat. My only wish is that it was at the top of the page instead of the bottom, where I agree it is very distracting.

12th Jul 2011 00:43 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I really like the search Mindat button. I no longer have to scroll through a page to get to it.

12th Jul 2011 01:18 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert

08471760016017079582716.jpg
Interesting--running Windows 7/IE9. I have no such toolbar; however, here's a screenshot of when I scroll to the bottom of this page...


12th Jul 2011 01:21 UTCFred E. Davis

00643070016017079593344.jpg
I'm guessing that the text in the message window is supposed to be readable? Looks like an "oops" to me...




Of the six buttons currently showing on the toolbar, I only see two that could be useful. The javascript:void(0); at the far right is yet to be implemented?

12th Jul 2011 01:21 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

You don't have to scroll, use the home & end buttons on the keyboard.


8-)

12th Jul 2011 01:36 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Keyboard? Two buttons! How quaint.

12th Jul 2011 01:43 UTCScott Sadlocha

I am getting the same thing John is at home, using Chrome on WinXP. However, at work using the same combo, the bar showed up correctly at the bottom, and I really didn't mind it too much, though I agree with the others and would like to see it on top.

12th Jul 2011 01:49 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert

using Chrome on Windows XP same as Scott - But for a while earlier today, I had the same display as you are getting now, John.


It's not interfering with reading or viewing, so that's a good thing - I'm getting used to it where it displays on the bottom.


M

12th Jul 2011 02:56 UTCChris Stefano Expert

I really hate to be negative about anything on Mindat, but I must agree the others here, I find these toolbar thingys really annoying wherever I see them. Perhaps they are the wave of the future, but I think they are just dumb- as was said before, why can't features that are important be encoded directly into the webpage? If a person is so lazy they can't be bothered to scroll to the bottom of a page, they are probably too lazy to make enough money to buy a computer and pay for internet access :)

12th Jul 2011 03:05 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Well. lets wait and see what Jolyon has up his sleeve before rejecting this feature. The view gallery option on photo pages is handy - could use some tweaking to change rate of display or allow for user input to advance to next image or return to previous image.

12th Jul 2011 03:41 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

As I said before, this feature makes browsing on my IPad annoying. The toolbar shows up right in the middle of a page. Just marvelous seeing a toolbar running right through the center of text or a photo.


As it stands now, and regardless of what Jolyon pulls out of his hat, this feature will limit my use of the site. I have deleted the task bar close to sixty times this evening.. I'm not pleased. But time and progress marches on. Enjoy it.

12th Jul 2011 04:13 UTCMickey Marks

Comcast wants me to show their toolbar. Google wants me to show their toolbar. Norton AV wants me to show their toolbar. Yahoo wants me to show their toobar. Mindat is imposing their toolbar. Pretty soon, if we acceded to all of those requests, all we would have on our screens would be toolbars. Mindat's should be optional like all the rest. My screen doesn't show any of them (except Mindat's, and that not by choice).

12th Jul 2011 06:36 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert

Update: Now it looks like a toolbar.

So end result is it reduces screen real estate by 1/4" or so, but let's see what happens...

12th Jul 2011 06:36 UTCMatt Neuzil Expert

I use firefox and it shows up at the bottom. I don;t have probs with it i love it. and since its customizeable I think i'll like it more. i gotta play around with it tomorrow onmy day off >:D<

12th Jul 2011 06:50 UTCHarald Schillhammer Expert

Oddly enough, it took me two days to recognize the tool bar anyway :), maybe because I have ample space on my monitor. Have not yet tested its functions, though.


Cheers

12th Jul 2011 07:19 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Well, this is being rolled out at the conference for the very good reason that it's being launched at the conference!


For those of you who are not attending the conference, I'll explain everything once I'm back!


Jolyon

12th Jul 2011 07:38 UTCGeorge Eric Stanley Curtis

Over engineered. That is my name for it.

Mindat was great as it was, if it aint broke, why fix it?


I like to have control over my own computer, and I would ask, politely, for this bar to be made user-optional.


Eric :(

12th Jul 2011 11:32 UTCClosed Account 🌟

To sum the thread up so far we can say: the new toolbar does not sit well with many users. To be honest: I don’t like it either.


The reasons for not liking it are more in the direction of its content and not in the fact that it is always there, but also in its “usability”.


The content I dislike are the so-called “social networks”. Maybe I am too old for this kind of crap, but I consider them to be data collection endpoints where unsuspecting people are seduced to enter personal data which in turn is exploited by some mega-companies for monetary gain.

I concede that in the times we are living in it is probably a matter of survival to be represented in those antisocial networks (at least in the long-term view if you want to attract young people). I just hope that this does not further the negative side-effects of these networks. Blatant disregard for copyright is just one of them. Just to give you an example read http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,106,223124,223160#msg-223160 and you will see what I mean (I have allowed Mindat to use this photo, but I have definitively not given permission to use it on Facebook). The problem here is that people who have fallen into the Facebook-Twitter-LinkedIn-Google-trap in most cases don’t even consider such minor issues like intellectual property. I have not stopped posting photos on Mindat, but I am sure there will be a lot of people who will, seeing that their work is pilfered.

In addition to these problems there is also the matter of additional bandwidth. We are forced to download additional (unwanted) content with every page we load. No problem if you have all the time in the world, and an unlimited data-plan, but what about those that do not want to wait for things they don’t want in the first place, and also have to pay for it? And the Facebook-plugin even continues to send request after request while you are reading unsuspectingly, adding “just” 2 kilobytes per request to your bill and that every 10 seconds or so.



But I retract: we will probably have to live with that crap.


There are hundreds of studies (some of the available freely on the internet) that pinpoint the “hotspots” where users are most comfortable to look at on web-pages. The bottom of the page is definitively not where important UI features are supposed to go.

Don’t get me wrong – I am not opposed to change! To the contrary, I welcome it if it is an improvement! Many people opposed the changes introduced with Microsoft Office 2007 and its Ribbon interface (for those who know it), but as of today I freely admit that I do not want to go back to the old UI, because the ribbon is so much more practical.

I see many of the design principles of the Office ribbon interface in the new Mindat toolbar, and that is good so! But why not go the whole way and combine the toolbar and the menu bar at the top of the page?

I have taken the liberty to create a “quick and dirty” mockup of such a new, ribbon-like menu bar (see attachment). A whole bunch of “quick access” features could be implemented that really would make working with Mindat so much easier. Just think of the example that hovering over the “Message Board” field would open a drop-down that allows you to select a category or group within the forum, and you can go immediately to where you want with one click of the mouse. The invention of Microsoft called XMLHttpRequest even would allow those fora to me marked, where new entries are available.


…just my two cents.


Branko

12th Jul 2011 12:01 UTCPierre Rondelez

Well said Branko,

I agree 100%


Pierre

12th Jul 2011 13:35 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

Hi all,


It seems that I am not the only one who finds this new toolbar nearly useless. The boring thing is that it pop's-up.

Let's go thru it:


The little house is the, already present, Mindat icon on the upper left hand side to refresh the page.

The handlens is the search tool who is already present at the botom of the homepage.

The Updated mineral entry can be interesting when you are a systhematic collector or professional mineralogist, otherwise ....

The Minfind logo is already present among the dealer banners.

The F is the shortcut to Facebook. I am ( and I hope not the only one ) NOT a fan of the Zuckerberg experience and will NEVER join.

Like Branko said, I have nothing to hide but dont want my whole pedigree pread out of the internet. I will consider joining when I will become a movie star or succesfull pop star. I don't know how I would react seeing one of my images on Facebook. I only upload to Mindat. Many other sites asked me for, but I refused.

The T is the link to twitter. Again a site to join.

The In is the same. Like these, there are 13 in a dozen.

The + is like I said above, 13 in a dozen.

The +1 is the same, sign in in +1

The last is again a Facebook shortcut who says : I like it. What to do if you don't ? It's easier to ask a question where the answer can only be positive so you can ignore the others.

I am probably old fashion but these things are useless to me.


Jolyon, I like enormously what you do and Mindat is my daily tool. I uploaded more than 750 pics. That means that I like to work, with you and all the other contributors, on the improvement and expansion of Mindat and I will go on uploading data.

Awhile ago, you asked us to tell you what we would see as an improvement for Mindat.

Maybe I didn' read all the answers but I can't recall that the contributors asked for a pop-up banner like this. If they did, sorry for this phrase. What with the other idea's ? It looks like we received what we didn't ask for and that ( for the moment ) nothing much is happening with the rest.


Considering this, I would like, just like Eric, to ask you politely to make this banner more user friendly and not as a pop-up on every refresh of the page or as a little icon we can access easily, when we want.

I hope you dont mind my remarks.

Thank you.


Take care and best regards.


Paul.

12th Jul 2011 14:10 UTCSteve Federico

there's something fishy in Denmark.

12th Jul 2011 14:17 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert

Devil's advocate here: this is Jolyon's business - his bread and butter - social media is the current trend - for better or worse, it is going to be part of our daily online experience whether we "like" it or not. (Pun not intended). (Or maybe it was! :) )


It's all about clicks and site visits.


I can appreciate the hardship those of you are experiencing as far as computer browsers not supporting the toolbar. My own gripe about this roll-out and others is that it was not announced - the membership was not alerted - I think we, the daily users and contributors deserve some notice. If I read between the lines, it sounds like even the managers were not aware.


Also, while I appreciate the Jolyon's preference to save this announcement for the conference, I'm not so sure that I appreciate launching a new element and then not being available to attend to the glitches that crop up.


Maggie

12th Jul 2011 16:49 UTCVolker Betz 🌟 Expert

Hello,


I am not enthusiastic about another toolbar popping up with facebook and twitter etc.


Volker

12th Jul 2011 17:28 UTCFred E. Davis

03022820016017079596149.jpg
So is this text window going to get a scroll bar or something?


12th Jul 2011 18:11 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Fred - the layout bug is fixed now (at least in Firefox, I haven't tested it in Internet Explorer yet).


You will be able to remove all the facebook/twitter/etc options from the toolbar when I have the configuration added. So please be a little patient for that - I think that will be ready within 2 weeks.


And in reply to Paul


> The little house is the, already present, Mindat icon on the upper left hand side to refresh the page.


So many people have complained that they don't know how to get back to the home page when they are logged in - they don't realise the mindat logo can link them back. So this is for them, not you.


> The handlens is the search tool who is already present at the botom of the homepage.


It will be removed from the bottom of all pages. The search button will then become more powerful, with more options.


I will also add an option to stick the toolbar to the physical bottom of the web page rather than the bottom of your web view - although this means you have to scroll the page to get to search options, etc, I think some of you would prefer this - and it may be necessary for devices such as the iPad.


Jolyon


And you also haven't noticed that the toolbar changes on certain pages.


> What with the other idea's? It looks like we received what we didn't ask for and that ( for the moment ) nothing much is happening with the rest.



Lots of new things are happening and becoming available. But I have to tell people at the conference about this first.


On Thursday evening I will discuss everything here.


Jolyon

12th Jul 2011 18:17 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The toolbar was tested on the following systems:


Internet Explorer 8, Windows XP *

Internet Explorer 9, Windows 7

Mozilla Firefox 4, Windows 7

Mozilla Firefox 4, Mac OS X 10.6

Mozilla Firefox 4, Ubuntu Linux

Google Chrome 12, Windows 7



It was not tested on older browsers than this (eg IE7) because there is no good reason to continue to use these browsers - you should upgrade.


Some features are not available on Internet Explorer 8, so if you use Windows XP you really should switch to either Firefox 4 or Chrome, IE8 will cease to be supported by mindat.org soon


Jolyon

12th Jul 2011 18:23 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

> Also, while I appreciate the Jolyon's preference to save this announcement for the conference,

> I'm not so sure that I appreciate launching a new element and then not being available to

> attend to the glitches that crop up.


I just fixed the glitch :)

12th Jul 2011 18:46 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert

Jolyon Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > Also, while I appreciate the Jolyon's preference

> to save this announcement for the conference,

> > I'm not so sure that I appreciate launching a

> new element and then not being available to

> > attend to the glitches that crop up.

>

> I just fixed the glitch :)


so I see! Thanks, you multi-tasker, you! Have a on me! :)-D

12th Jul 2011 19:37 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

03498290016017079598282.jpg
Although I did find this rather interesting and amusing earlier:




What, Java beats toolbar?? B)

12th Jul 2011 21:18 UTCTimothy Blackwood

Will the new Mindat features work under the latest version of Firefox? I see that there is a new version 5.0.1 available for download at Link to latest version of Firefox. Is it okay to have two different browsers on the same machine and use either, depending on one's browsing preferences?


Best wishes,

Tim Blackwood

Cohasset, MN, USA

12th Jul 2011 22:05 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

"Is it okay to have two different browsers on the same machine and use either, depending on one's browsing preferences? "


I have 5 different browsers on my computer. It gets a bit tricky if you want to run different versions of the same browser.

12th Jul 2011 23:39 UTCTimothy Blackwood

Hi David,


Thanks for the info. I've heard that it's a bad idea to run multiple anti-virus programs on the same computer, but didn't know if the same rule applied to other types of software (i.e. web browsers). Learn something new everyday. Now I just have to download it and set it up. Shouldn't be too difficult, should it? I'm not really all that computer saavy.


Best wishes,

Tim

Cohasset, MN, USA

12th Jul 2011 23:39 UTCHarjo Neutkens Manager

Tim, I use Firefox 5 and the toolbar works fine.

12th Jul 2011 23:43 UTCTimothy Blackwood

Hello Harjo,


Thank you for the additional information. :) From what I've read, Firefox sounds like a good program. I just hope it's easy to download, install, and configure.


Best wishes,

Tim Blackwood

Cohasset, MN, USA

13th Jul 2011 00:53 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Firefox 5 is more of a marketing upgrade than a serious change to firefox so I am sure everything wolil work fine in it

13th Jul 2011 01:41 UTCScott L. Ritchie Expert

Hi Jolyon,


Firefox 5 user here, and the mindat toolbar works just fine and looks pretty slick... it doesnt bother me one bit or byte!


Scott

13th Jul 2011 02:10 UTCTimothy Blackwood

Thanks Jolyon. :) I was just curious, as I tend to be suspicious of software upgrades. But Firefox does look really good. Just have to download it and figure out how to configure it.


Best wishes,

Tim Blackwood

Cohasset, MN, USA

13th Jul 2011 02:11 UTCTimothy Blackwood

Thanks Jolyon. :) I was just curious, as I tend to be suspicious of software upgrades. But Firefox does look really good. Just have to download it and figure out how to configure it.


Best wishes,

Tim Blackwood

Cohasset, MN, USA

13th Jul 2011 09:30 UTCJoachim Esche 🌟 Expert

Hello,


I fully agree with Branko and Paul.

The left part of the toolbar is redundant and the right part is waste.


Joachim

14th Jul 2011 00:55 UTCChris Mavris Manager

As creator and admin of two Mindat groups, on Facebook (where we have collected nearly 700 people...) and LinkedIn, I will obviously defend the social network buttons.

They lead directly to the sites and they are really helpful.


Frankly speaking, I find pretty much trendy to criticize the social networks just because...well, you tell me.

I use Facebook to stay in touch with my friends worldwide, share informations, experiences, quick free texting...and I do not feel an idiot in doing that.

After all, almost 700 million people should be idiots. Additionally, you should consider the fact that the two companies are in the stock market as well, which means that they have a certain degree of popularity.


Thanks to those social network I was able to attract A LOT of people to:

-2 Sainte Marie aux Mines edition (Mindat party hosted by Spirifer)

-1 Munich Mineralien Tage (Mindat party)


Also, I was able to get to know a lot of great mineral collectors, which I afterwards met in person (at main mineral shows, field, the actual Mindat conference, or simply a beer). Some of them are real friends, some others just 'contacts'.


A new way the world works? An open mentality? Simply a kiddish thought, even if I am 28? Maybe...

Personally, I do not care. Prejudice against something that is only superficially tested (if it was ever tested, by the way) is simply pointless.


The results achieved with the Facebook and LinkedIn groups are outstanding, basically, because we are able to connect also young people to this passion which many times does not feature a sufficient renewal. And for me this is a serious target I had in mind when I created the groups. As far as I could experience in this conference, it is possible to achieve such a target!


There is a bunch of things I would like to skip in my life. The advertisement at the bottom of this page, per instance. Or some crazy drivers on the highway. But I know it is not possible, therefore I do not complain (up to a certain extent) and I accept it.


People are reluctant to changes BY THE BOOK: usually, the first answer is "NO"; then it might change...

I cannot talk about the other features of the bar until I experience them myself after J's seminar. But I will defend the buttons leading to the social networks.


Like it or not, the world works in a certain way... and if you stay behind there is no second place or silver medal...so we better catch up and make up our minds.


Greets from a fantastic conference, maybe the best I have ever attended!

14th Jul 2011 09:12 UTCClosed Account 🌟

Hi Chris,


I believe that you are right and wrong at the same time.


You are right insofar as the times we are living in have changed and the so-called “Social Networks” have become an important part of some (mainly younger) people. If Mindat wants to stay relevant the site probably has to embrace this new trend, especially if it wants to attract new and young members.

Some comments in this thread have indicated that they do not want to have these so-called “Social Networks” at all, something that I did not claim and if you look at the mockup of a new ribbon-like menu bar http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?file,6,file=32040,filename=mockup.jpg you will see that I have included these. However I understand these sentiments, and I’ll give you some reasons for such dislike further down. But let’s face it: the so-called “Social networks” are here to stay.


Chris, you have chosen to join Facebook and LinkedIn, and I commend you for the work you are doing there. I think we all should join in in saying “Thank you!” for working for Mindat with such a passion and with such great success as you’ve indicated. But it was a matter of your personal choice to join these so-called “Social networks”. While you decided to take the plunge there are many (me included) who do not want to have anything to do with these trendy new web applications.


It is my main concern with the new toolbar that the personal choice has been taken from us. It is not the screen real estate that is occupied by the buttons which is a waste for me, but may well be used by others. But have you looked at the network activity generated by this new “features”? I have included a copy of a network capture generated by this very page (http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,6,229866,230169,page=2). As you can see there is network activity going on infinitely after the initial page load. Actually there is even more going on than captured by this recording, but some scripts are blocked by the tracking protection of IE9 (Google plusone, Google pageads) and because of that the resulting network traffic never occurs.

I have noted that the interval in which this additional network traffic occurs has been lengthened since yesterday (Thank you Jolyon!), but it is still there. I have already mentioned the monetary cost that this may cause, especially if you are on a mobile network, in my earlier post. This is simply a bad idea.


But let us also have a look at what this network traffic does in respect to privacy. I go to Mindat.org almost exclusively from two different computers: one at home and one at work. So basically I connect with two different IP addresses: 193.171.152.33 (work) and 93.83.176.26 (home). I have also included a WHOIS lookup for these two addresses. The information that can be gained from this is:

My real name, the town, district and street I am living in, the company I work for including the full address. I have not once in my life visited Facebook, but with the new setup on Mindat I am forced to “volunteer” this information to Facebook. Fortunately my employer does not allow access to Facebook and blocks all connections on the proxy server (that is why I get a 403 response code in the attached network capture), so I am not in danger here, and I am blocking Facebook and the other so-called “Social Networks” on the router level at home.


But what about all the other people that don’t have this privacy protection either because they don’t know about the issue and/or do not have the knowledge to implement protecting measures? So I urgently request that there is a means to turn off this reoccurring network traffic for the monetary reasons and the privacy reasons stated. I want to have my privacy options back and not have the choices taken out of my hands.


Chris, where you are definitely wrong is your assessment “almost 700 million people should be idiots”. I believe that the vast majority of the Facebook users simply are not aware of the privacy issues involved. That is why they have joined Facebook. Were they aware, I believe that a large percentage would have never joined.


Branko

14th Jul 2011 09:42 UTCRock Currier Expert

Chris,

Certainly there is some truth in what you say. I know of at least one mineral dealer who used to troll for customers here on Mindat and when the going got too hot for him here found a new happy hunting ground on Facebook to be more congenial to him than Mindat. So certainly Face book and also Twitter I imagine, seem to provide content that many find congenial. I find it difficult to understand the attraction, but I am an old stick in the mud and also can not understand a lot of the new wildly successful TV programs like "The Real Housewives of xxxxx" and Ghost hunters. My loss I guess. Good luck in your efforts.

14th Jul 2011 11:41 UTCMalcolm Southwood 🌟 Expert

Branko,


Thanks for explaining what's happening here. I'm something of an IT peasant I'm afraid, but I followed most of what you said (I think!).


I'm with you on this one. A few months ago I had a Facebook generated email inviting me to be a friend of someone or other, and suggesting a list of other people who I might also like to contact via Facebook. That list included a range of people from among my old school friends, university pals, mineral folk, and business contacts. The only way this list could possibly have been compiled was by some sort of monitoring of my email traffic - and that's disturbing.


So I'm with you! I want nothing to do with these social networks as I am in no doubt that they do threaten my privacy. My kids use them, and as a result I have banned the kids from the computer that I use for my own affairs.


Jolyon - I hate to be unsupportive - but I too feel very uncomfortable with linking this great site to these social networks. Looking around the various mineral societies that I've been associated with, a high proportion of members are of a vintage that makes me think many will share this concern, though I've no idea whether Mindat's member population is of a similar demographic.


Bottom line - I would strongly prefer that Mindat stays clear of these networking sites.


mal

14th Jul 2011 11:44 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

My personal opinion is similar to that of Branko.



"... but with the new setup on Mindat I am forced to “volunteer” this information to Facebook."


How exactly? Only if one clicks on the Facebook button?

14th Jul 2011 12:35 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

I honestly don't have the energy to write one of my brilliant narratives. I'm an active Facebook user and my objections to this feature have nothing to do with this.


I'll exercise lessons learned from Brevity 101. Everyday I wake up and hope that this feature will be gone from the middle of my page views. If it stayed out of site and out of mind, you wouldn't be reading anything from me.

14th Jul 2011 13:12 UTCDan Fountain

David Bernstein Wrote:

> ...out of site and out of mind...


Good one!

14th Jul 2011 14:36 UTCSigurd Stordal

Want to remove it (just because you don't like it, and don't want the full mindat experience), then why not just add it to your popup blocker.

I myself like it and was glad to see it appear, but adding this: http://www.mindat.org/tb/ to your popup blocker should probably work. Don't know but you might just try it out if you feel for it. :)-D

14th Jul 2011 15:37 UTCJean-Yves Lamoureux

Hi all,


Is this only an illusion or a wrong perception, but... it seems the addition of the toolbar has slowed the download of pages and photos from Mindat. Am I alone to imagine this, or ?


Concerning the controversial Social Networks issue, I do have a Facebook account, through which I share family pictures and thoughts with family and a few friends, real friends. People that I have known for years, and that I trust.


And, I have not yet felt the need to open a minerals-oriented Facebook account for my collector friends. These I talk to over the phone or in person, or send an email with my field trip or specimen pictures, if truly worth sharing.


The privacy aspect, as quoted in a previous post, should effectively not be neglected. Posting on your FB account (or having a "friend" share this info with the community), that your wife and you are going to attend a three-day conference in Europe, after having posted pictures of your recently-found, highly valuable minerals, ain't a good idea ! Some of your FB "friends" might not be so friendly after all, and plan a visit to your premises while on your trip... Let's put it this way : would you post a sign in front of your house saying "Absent from Aug. 11th till Aug. 20th" ?


Computer-knowledgeable people will program their FB settings so that their information be shared with friends only, not with "friends of friends" or the public. And, accepting someone as a friend has to be the fruit of a certain reflection. A regular and interesting contributor of Mindat might look like a good candidate, but you don't know the person. Point. In real life (non-virtual), do you really feel an urge to be the friend of all the members of your local mineralogy club ? Some may seem very interesting, but a first eye contact will ring a "no-no" bell ! Some caution is always advisable.

14th Jul 2011 17:05 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Jolyon, I know this site is your baby, but we all contribute to its body of work and ultimately a percentage of its success.


My feelings are that we should have a personal choice in the tool bar matter, not whether we like or use the Social Networks. I know they are here to stay, and that they are wildly successful throughout the world...just not my cup-of-tea.


This reminds me of when I was a kid staring at a spoonful of cod liver oil....and Mom saying "take it, it is good for you."


Lyla

14th Jul 2011 17:13 UTCHerman Du Plessis

i find this toolbar frustrating if i want to view mindat on my phone and there i dont have the option to close it as i dont have a mouse pointer. and it obstructs the pictures i want to view.

im using a blackberry curve


my 2 cents

herman

14th Jul 2011 17:28 UTCJeff Weissman Expert

Same obstruction problem, toolbar on top of images, on my HTC Android phone, works OK on IE8 and IE9

14th Jul 2011 18:00 UTCClosed Account 🌟

@ Uwe


“How exactly? Only if one clicks on the Facebook button?”


No, and this is the problem I am having with this new setup.


As you can see in the network capture I posted http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?file,6,file=32067,filename=Network_capture.png the page (any page on Mindat that has the new toolbar) loads the Facebook plugin www.facebook.com/plugins/like.php?... and this alone gives Facebook the information of my IP address. A WhoIs lookup of this IP address reveals the information I posted here: http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?file,6,file=32068,filename=WHOIS_lookup.pdf which contains my real name, the town, district and street I am living in, the company I work for including its full street address. I have nothing more to do than to load a Mindat page to reveal all this information to Facebook.


Facebook can potentially do quite a lot of things with this information:

- As Mindat is not the only culprit of adding this Facebook plugin to its page they can potentially track you over literally millions of sites, getting to know your interests. (They don’t need the WhoIs lookup for that!)

- They can potentially track your movement from IP-address to IP-address thus creating a profile.

- They can potentially link the information gained from your IP address with other information already available on Facebook.

- They can potentially sell all the wealth of information to some third party or make this information available through APIs (like they have already done in the past!).


I am not saying that Facebook does all these things, but they potentially CAN do it. Do I trust Facebook? No! Do I want to have all this information in the hands of Facebook? No!


Thank god I am knowledgeable enough to prevent all the goodness that comes from these sites, but what can those do that are not? Maybe hoping that there will be a possibility to turn it off in the future.


@ Sigurd


Adding the subdirectory to your popup blocker will only get you an uglier toolbar, but will not change its behavior.


@ Jean-Yves


The new toolbar loads additional code into your browser. This takes time. Also the new toolbars adds a lot of new requests to the server, so the server is busier than it was before. I am not sure if that makes for slower loading of the pages in a perceptible way, but definitely does so as can be measured with advanced tooling (e.g.: Firebug, Developer Toolbar).


In regards to the Facebook account settings you are right to make sure to only share what you want to share and with whom you share. But the problem is that with the new setup you already share information with Facebook, even if you never had an account and never visited the site.


Branko

14th Jul 2011 18:51 UTCClosed Account 🌟

In an earlier post I wrote:


“Just to give you an example read http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,106,223124,223160#msg-223160 and you will see what I mean (I have allowed Mindat to use this photo, but I have definitively not given permission to use it on Facebook).”


I have just received a PM from Darren, telling me that he never copied the picture to upload it on Facebook, but that he rather put a link to the respective Mindat page.


I misunderstood the wording of Darren’s post and believed he had copied the photo. I apologize for implying any wrongdoing and would like to ask all readers to disregard what I wrote (it is too late now to edit this sentence out of my initial posting).


Branko

14th Jul 2011 18:55 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Thanks, Branko. I didn't like what Facebook does and now I don't like it even more. At all.

I guess all websites that nowadays have Facebook buttons on their main page (e.g., government sites, museum sites, university sites etc.), will allow FB to get such information. Makes FB pretty powerful if you think about it...


Glad I don't have a computer at home.

14th Jul 2011 18:56 UTCAnonymous User

Yes, I notice pages are loading more slowly.


More importantly, what Branko says is deeply concerning. If I wanted FB to have access to, and the ability to use, misuse, sell, etc. my information, I'd sign up for a FB account.


Mindat's privacy policy states:

"Your personal details will not be revealed to any third party unless you decide to be listed in the members' directory (this is available to other members). All changes made to the database are logged along with the user name of the person who changed it. This information is available to others who have access to the database. Apart from occasional update emails from mindat.org your email address will be kept purely for registration."


By logging on to mindat, I gave Jolyon my IP addresses and my real name. I trusted him not to misuse them. But FB I do not trust. So by simply opening mindat is my privacy being violated? If so, that's a deal-breaker, ladies.


I don't really understand all of this; I just don't want all my business to be owned by FB unless I authorize it.


If there is no problem, then I apologize. Great site, great minerals, great people. Just don't give my s#*t away please.

14th Jul 2011 19:04 UTCDarren Court

Branko-


Thanks for the clarification. I occasionally post links to Mindat pages so friends and family can see why I enjoy minerals so much - they appreciate it and in at least one case a family member has asked me about starting a collection. Again, thanks.


Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.


Darren

14th Jul 2011 19:17 UTCScott L. Ritchie Expert

I enjoy seeing the most recent site updates with the hyperlink to the mineral or locality and user with date and time, which makes me feel connected to the staff of managers and users here, and highlights the dynamic progress of the database.


Understanding the complicated issues of internet privacy and anonymity is important, especially for children... but the mindat toolbar is a far cry from the dreaded HAL 9000. B)-


Scott

14th Jul 2011 21:49 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

Really, FB is spying on me just by having their logo on the web page?! That has got to go! Does sound like it violates the mindat privacy policy.

I also must rely on a wireless internet connection, which while good is not the fastest, and now this toolbar may be slowing it down more? Mindat should not assume everyone has a lightning fast connection....

I've blocked the toolbar, does that prevent the spying, or just stop me from seeing the toolbar? Will it speed up the page loading? If I customize the bar eventually and take that logo off, does it stop the spying? Why should I even have to be asking these questions?

For the person who's message says FB is so great cuz it's on the stock market, I suggest you ask yourself, as I did, "How do they make any money if the account is free and there are no advertisements?" - by selling your (no longer) private information! Many sing the praises of sites like FB, but I agree with Rock, I just dont find it necessary, in fact just a giant time waster and have opted out. My life is just fine without it, I already have enough real flesh and blood friends and plenty of things (too much I think) to do.

14th Jul 2011 22:08 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

An IP address is not regarded as personal information under UK and EU law, and that is what we need to be concerned about in regard to Branko's worries.


The internet would simply not work if it was not possible for remote computers to view your IP address.


You may be upset about Facebook having access to your IP address. But each time you access Google, they have your IP address, so do advertisers on any major website you visit (except on mindat).


Google also can record IP addresses from people who visit mindat, because we use both their hosted copy of jquery files (to reduce load on mindat) and also because of the Google ads.


Most people have an IP address that changes frequently (Dynamic IP), and can rarely be resolved to greater than town level, except by law enforcement working in conjunction with your ISP.


If it is possible with a simple IP lookup to get your name and other personal information, it is because you have at some point allowed this information to be associated with your IP address, and has nothing at all to do with Facebook, Google or Mindat!


It's a big panic about nothing.

14th Jul 2011 22:51 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Jolyon,


You have a knack for making things worse sometimes. A big panic about nothing? That's pretty arrogant, even for the owner of a site. There, I said it because probably no one else will.


I'll say it again. I do not like my page views obscured by this wretched thing. It is right in the middle of my page views. Now that is pretty straight forward.


Telling me not to worry about it or telling me I'm going to miss out on the thrill of the Mindat experience ain't cutting it.


You're an intelligent guy, Jolyon. I'm sure you considered the backlash this would cause. And you chose to disregard it.

14th Jul 2011 23:08 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

Thanks for the clarification, Jolyon, I do understand about the necessary sharing and changing of IP addresses. I am very sensitive to issues dealing with FB and their ilk and voluntarily try to stay as far away from them as possible. So when I hear they may be gathering info against my will anyway, especially when I'm visiting and contributing to my favorite web site, it doesn't make me comfortable. I don't want to see a good thing ruined by their insidious pervasiveness.

14th Jul 2011 23:39 UTCHarjo Neutkens Manager

Relax ;-)

Don't make too much of a fuss about it.

Just as we don't expect to be able to travel the real world incognito it's not obvious to be able to travel and use the internet incognito.

This is good and bad at the same time.

Still, I'm more worried about the burglars that have been active in our village recently....


Cheers,


Harjo

14th Jul 2011 23:57 UTCMickey Marks

Please, just give us the option to close the toolbar once, so that it remains closed when we jump to other Mindat pages. Is that really too much to ask?

15th Jul 2011 00:00 UTCMike Dennis

Don't mind it at all,I'm sure everyone will like it after a little while.Change is good,although more difficult the older I get lol.

15th Jul 2011 00:04 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

What tool bar? Oh!! there it is!! On my screen it's hardly noticeable......or is it me??!!!......

15th Jul 2011 00:51 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

The solution would seem to be simple, an optional toolbar, in other words a way to turn off the toolbar.

15th Jul 2011 01:13 UTCChris Mavris Manager

Seriously, you got credit cards, mobile phones, GPS, etc. that tell the operators where you are 24/7...and you are afraid of a social network which might be spoil your privacy?

I believe it's pretty controversial. Really.

What Jolyon mentioned about Google and the IP adresses is true. Perhaps you should think twice before doing another web search?


Anyhow Branko, I do respect your point of view - despite I mostly disagree with it. I will keep running those groups and I hope young people and open minds keep joining it. So far I was successful (see this conference) and I won't stop the generational renewal is accomplished :)


Chris

15th Jul 2011 01:40 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

I also would like to have the choice to switch off this tool bar.

15th Jul 2011 04:12 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert

The whole Facebook debacle was just a white elephant.


The real issue is, for some people the toolbar is inconvenient and at worst it really makes the website look foolish.


On my desktop it is annoying as all sin, on my laptop, it is...okay


Jolyon, why can we not just have an option to turn it off? This is not something exciting or new, I've seen these stupid things on all sorts of other blog sites. Those sites, I'm just going to read one article and then I bounce. I don't see how this thing is going to win over any hearts or minds. Since MinDat is ALL about digging through pages, with locality trees, bajillionze of photo pages to flip through, the reoccurring banner is maddening.

15th Jul 2011 05:28 UTCStephanie Martin

I get the sense that The Thing can't be made optional or Jolyon doesn't want it optional.

Either way for me I don't like where The Thing is now.

If we must have it, it would be nice to have The Thing at the top of the page, preferably either above or below the advert banners, if this is possible.


venting completed,

thanks

stephanie

15th Jul 2011 08:03 UTCClosed Account 🌟

Jolyon,


"If it is possible with a simple IP lookup to get your name and other personal information, it is because you have at some point allowed this information to be associated with your IP address..."


I guess "allow" is probably misleading: it is the law (at least here where I live), and AFAK it is also required on a worldwide scale that your domain information with your NIC is correct.


The internet is based on the IP protocol and would not work without it. This importance has led to legislation in some countries to protect individuals that have a static IP address associated with them and I am happy to live in one such country.


The matter here is one of choices. As you have to give away your own IP address or that of your proxy server and/or ISP to the owner of the site you are surfing to for technical reasons it all boils down to the question: Do I choose to trust the site owner or not? If the answer to that question is “Yes”, then you can go to her/his site. But if your answer is “No”, like it would probably be with porn sites and notorious data collectors/miners, then you simply do not go there. So it is my personal choice to trust you and hence I visit Mindat on quite a regular basis. But it is also my personal choice not to trust Facebook and other notorious data collectors/miners and therefore I do not visit their sites. The internet is a much smaller place for me than it is for others, but I can very well live with that.


Up until you have decided to implement the changes the way you did there was no problem with Mindat. But now I find myself in a conflict: suddenly I have to take the good with the bad, and have no possibility of avoiding the bad in a site-supported way.


For me there is an easy way out: as stated earlier I mainly access Mindat through one of my computers at home that is internet-connected and through my internet connection at work. Both these internet connections have an in-depth protection against the notorious data collectors/miners that includes firewalls, access-rules on the routers, DNS servers and the tracking protection of my preferred browser. So I am pretty confident that on these two computers I will have my privacy protected. Again it was my personal choice to implement exceptions to the rules that govern my protective measures for e.g.: http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/jquery/1.6.1/jquery.min.js in order to have Mindat work properly. Fortunately I know how to parameterize a Cisco router and firewall and how to configure a DNS-server so I am able to protect myself. But until such time as there is a way to respect my personal choices in regards to privacy I will access Mindat through these two protected computers exclusively (which is fortunately 90%+ of the time), but I will no longer access Mindat on other computers (like on holiday, through public WiFi hotspots, on my Phone,…).


We will see how that works out for others that do not have this specific knowledge.


Branko

15th Jul 2011 09:09 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Thank, Jolyon, for explaining the bigger picture.


I guess we should all be aware that when entering the internet we become partly transparent citizens.

If multinationals assemble user profiles, it also has advantages. For instance, I like that websites suggest to have a look at items (e.g., books, music) my user profile suggests I might have an interest in.

Hacking websites of multinationals happens all the time, but as long as only user profiles are stolen, there won't be much damage. It's a different thing, of course, with data such as bank account details, credit card numbers etc. Cybercrime needs heavier punishments IMO.

Just thinking loud … - I am sure more apt people have tackled these issues.

15th Jul 2011 09:18 UTCMarcus Voigt

@ Branko: Thanks for your detailed explanations,


Your posts make me more pure joy to watch here!



@ All: Toolbar or not.......this decision is the decision of the side holder.


Because the excited discussion he will make his thoughts already ...


The developments here lately let me ask you excited:


"Where we are headed?" Wohin wird diese "Reise"/Entwicklung noch führen?


Best regards


(a worried)


Marcus

15th Jul 2011 16:16 UTCDonald Peck

As yet, I don't find the toolbar useful, but I am willing to take Jolyon's word that it will add many new functions.

I don't get involved with Face Book. Twitter, etc., but I do not have to click the buttons and perhaps there will be a way to customize the bar and remove them.

A couple of days ago, the mindat site was slower that the growth of grass. Today it is fine.

Already, I do not even notice the presence of the bar. I use a desktop computer.

15th Jul 2011 17:43 UTCBrent Thorne Expert

I have also noticed that Mindat is extremely slow since the toolbar has been added. Especially when I am looking at the daily photos. Is this something that is going to be fixed? I think the answer may determine how often I use Mindat. I enjoy Mindat and use it constantly during the day. It would be a shame to have to cut back my usage just because a new application has made it inconveniant for me to view the other applications that I use so frequently.

16th Jul 2011 00:51 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The performance problems we have had are nothing to do with the toolbar.

16th Jul 2011 05:24 UTCWill Shewfelt

I noticed the performance problem months ago. Since adding the toolbar it is even slower. I find myself avoiding Mindat lately because its actually faster to get the info from my mineral library! Others Ive spoken with are doing likewise. Is this really benefiting the realm of mineral knowledge?

Discoveries are being made that may not be posted here if it takes so long to upload info...sort of contradicts the purpose of the site.


The toolbar is a redundant annoyance...continually.

16th Jul 2011 12:36 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Another layer of madness with this thing. From my IPad, the task bar "X" sits right over a link to the Mindat directory. So when I close out the task bar, I get directed to the directory. I then have to hit the back button and navigate away from the homepage. One good thing, I find myself gripping my iPad tighter while browsing, due to anger and resentment, that my wrists are getting an excellent workout.

16th Jul 2011 13:53 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The problem with the toolbar on iPad and iPhone is due to a bug in Safari on these browsers not correctly rendering the 'Position: Fixed' property.


I am told this will be fixed in the forthcoming IOS version 5 - which is due for release soon.


Jolyon

17th Jul 2011 01:51 UTCEd Godsey

Branko said:

"The content I dislike are the so-called “social networks”. Maybe I am too old for this kind of crap, but I consider them to be data collection endpoints where unsuspecting people are seduced to enter personal data which in turn is exploited by some mega-companies for monetary gain. "


I agree with Branko - I'm too old for this kind of crap. I have never and will never use Facebook or any of the other "anti-social" sites. Screen real estate, bandwidth, and time are too precious to have to deal with this kind of stuff. Why do you think I use the DVR for almost every TV program? So I can skip thru all the #$^*)^ commercials.

19th Jul 2011 00:13 UTCPhilip Bluemner Expert

Hi,

I followed this thread because I'm neither especially fond of the toolbar. I first found it annoying due to its simple presence and the impossibility of deactivation. In the meantime I don't notice the toolbar anymore. It's just 1 cm less mindat on my monitor.

I don't quite understand the reason of connecting the toolbar with social networks but that shall not be purpose of my post.

It may be of browser nature (in my case Mozilla Firefox v 3.6) but I find it really annoying when looking for a locality and if there are multiple choices I use the strg+f function. Firefox highlights the text parts I type into the find field in green color at the bottom of the page. And due to the existence of the toolbar I cannot see what I am looking for. So I have to close the toolbar every time.


Regards

Philip

19th Jul 2011 10:40 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I use Firefox 3.6.12 and the toolbar makes space for the search window so there is no problem anymore (I should upgrade to version 4 or 5 anyway).

19th Jul 2011 22:47 UTCJ. Roger Mitchell

Lose the tool bar. It's annoying. Just add a new tool bar on the top of the page that reads "Social Media". I'm interested in minerals not the latest software.

21st Jul 2011 00:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The reason for connecting to the social networks I would have thought was obvious - to increase the visibility of mindat.org and to encourage new people to discover the site.


If you don't use such services then of course you will find these features unnecessary (and I promise I WILL provide a way to permanently turn them off), but just because they are not useful for you does not mean they are not useful for mindat.


I am experimenting with some other ideas to make the toolbar less annoying for some of you.


One option is to fade the toolbar out, so it is translucent and not so distracting unless you move your mouse over it. This will not be the default behaviour, because it is not compatible with touch devices such as the iPad (and yes, David, I am very keen to make sure it works well with the iPad!) - This will also solve the problem where a text search identifies an item that is hidden below the toolbar.


Another option is to pin the toolbar to the bottom of the page rather than the bottom of the screen, so it will just act like a standard page footer and never overlay anything. Again, this will be an option, and will be permanent once you have set it.


There will also be an option (as mentioned above) to enable/disable certain items, such as the social media options and the minfind link.


There are some new tools coming soon to the toolbar. The most exciting will be the lightbox.


With the lightbox, when you are viewing a photo, you have the option to add it to your lightbox. This is a panel that allows you to store and compare photographs. You can reorder them, comment on them, create an article about them, or a slideshow presentation which can be stored in your profile in a similar way to an article. actually - as you've already seen, a slideshow and article can be the same thing.


This will be improved in the future so you can add text slides to slideshows, and play it in a presentation format (so you can move from one slide to another with a button press). Then you'll be able to build an article in mindat that can also be viewed as a slideshow presentation, complete with text, if you want to!


Perhaps at the next mindat conference, all presentations will be created and presented on mindat.org using this system. This has the great advantage that you can be able to view the presentations even if you're not at the conference!

21st Jul 2011 01:10 UTCChris Mavris Manager

I like the lightbox idea!! :)

21st Jul 2011 05:07 UTCMickey Marks

I can live with "pin the toolbar to the bottom of the page". When will this option be available?

21st Jul 2011 08:30 UTCClosed Account 🌟

Jolyon,


Thank you very much! This is really good news!


With all my rants against Facebook and others one thing may have gone unnoticed: I don’t think these items should go! Even if it is only for SEO, the times we are living in makes it necessary to have them. What I do hope however is that there is a way to disable the network traffic to these sites.


It is some kind of (good!) compromise between the necessities of Mindat and the privacy concerns of many users to include logic like that:


If the user has not disabled the social network connections (default behavior):

Load the plugins (FB “Like it”, Google Plusone,…) from the respective site and enable reoccurring traffic to these sites.


If the user has disabled it:

Load static resources (images, static links) from the Mindat site and disable reoccurring traffic.


The screen real estate should not be a concern for anyone because if you look at it without emotions it is actually really tiny (350 x 30 pixels) compared to the rest of the screen, even on a netbook like the one I am writing this from. If carefully placed it will never be in the way (and we cannot hold Jolyon responsible if it is in the way because of a bug in the respective implementation of certain browsers).


What all users should be aware of is the fact that these much criticized items generate income in the long run for Mindat and/or Jolyon (e.g.: Minfind.com) which in turn helps to keep our most favorite mineralogical site alive. For this reason alone we should be glad that they are there.


The idea to fade the toolbar out if not in use is pure genius and will make the experience painless for all.

Pinning it to the bottom of a page makes no sense to me (others might disagree here), but if it is an option, so be it.

I still believe that the best solution would be to merge the menu bar at the top (which really takes a lot of screen estate for what it does) and the toolbar at the bottom to a single “Command Center” that is pinned to the top of the page (and possibly with an option to pin it to the bottom).


I am looking forward to seeing the new functionality in action like the lightbox, which sounds exciting.


Thanks again, Jolyon, and please forgive me if I’ve come across to strong in my criticism.


Branko

21st Jul 2011 09:19 UTCRoger Curry

Lightbox idea sounds excellent!

21st Jul 2011 10:23 UTCChris Mavris Manager

"With all my rants against Facebook and others one thing may have gone unnoticed: I don’t think these items should go! "


It went unnoticed to me (and a few more other people I talked to at the Mindat conference) when you were talking about them as 'crap'... :)

21st Jul 2011 14:26 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

**Another option is to pin the toolbar to the bottom of the page rather than the bottom of the screen, so it will just act like a standard page footer and never overlay anything. Again, this will be an option, and will be permanent once you have set it. **



Fine by me. Again, my complaints have involved aesthetic and navigational issues and what you write seems to address them. So many thanks. Seems to be a better solution then waiting for the IOS 5 or whatever it is called which will not be released till fall.

21st Jul 2011 18:20 UTCMichael J. Bainbridge Expert

In Safari on the iPhone (and iPad, I guess) the toolbar doesn't stay put at the bottom, which is hugely annoying (along with other minor compatibility issues with the site). Otherwise (when using my proper computer), I have no issue with it. In it's current state (and mine, I suppose) I don't have much use for it, but it certainly doesn't bother me.


What is Google +1?

22nd Jul 2011 05:08 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert

Michael


Google+1 is their version of Facebook and is currently still in beta.

28th Jul 2011 13:49 UTCJim Hall

I believe what is seen on an android tablet is similar. The toolbar is part of the way up the page, and as you enlarge the page, the toolbar gets bigger and moves more towards the center, obscuring any photos you are looking at. More than just annoying. On my regular windows computer I am fine with it as it stays on the bottom as it should.


Jolyon Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem with the toolbar on iPad and iPhone is

> due to a bug in Safari on these browsers not

> correctly rendering the 'Position: Fixed'

> property.

>

> I am told this will be fixed in the forthcoming

> IOS version 5 - which is due for release soon.

>

> Jolyon

30th Jul 2011 23:29 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The toolbar options have arrived - thank you for your patience!


Most people will want to choose one of 'Fade toolbar when not in focus' or 'Fix toolbar to bottom of page'


There's not much point to use both.


iPad/iPhone users should find this version automatically fixes the problem they had before with toolbar in middle of page. The 2nd option is therefore not available to these users, as it's enabled by default and can't be disabled.


The timer for slides isn't working right yet. Please be patient!


I'm also going to fix the slideshow so the first frame doesn't load in an ugly way.


Jolyon

31st Jul 2011 02:34 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert

Just home after long day. What a nice surprise. Stress free browsing. Many thanks.

31st Jul 2011 02:47 UTCDan Fountain

Jolyon,


Thank you.


I opted to 'Fade toolbar when not in focus' - unfortunately, now the Search and Options icons don't work.


Windows Vista & IE 8.

31st Jul 2011 03:02 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

If you're using Vista you really should upgrade to IE9 (or an alternative modern browser). Many features in the future (and now - the slideshow) won't work with IE8 so it's not really officially supported on mindat any more.

31st Jul 2011 06:56 UTCGeorge Eric Stanley Curtis

I selected fade and noticed that now I no longer have access to the 'tools' option.

Not that I mind much.

Can we not have a 'fade' option that makes it totally and permanently invisible?

For info, I have windows 7 premium running latest IE on a brand new laptop.

The 'text' window on the Tbar has dropped out of sight. The close button closes and reopens within seconds.

The toolbar option remains non functional, even if I shut down and restart, so I am on permanent fade.


Your toolbar is no longer functioning.


Thanks

Eric :S

31st Jul 2011 11:59 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

> I selected fade and noticed that now I no longer have access to the 'tools' option.


I cannot repeat that here - it's working fine on my Windows 7 machine with Internet Explorer 9 - Version 9.0.8112.16421 - please go to "About Internet Explorer" in the menu and let me know what version you are using.


> Can we not have a 'fade' option that makes it totally and permanently invisible?


No, because then how would you be able to open it again when you need it?


> The 'text' window on the Tbar has dropped out of sight.


It will sometimes do this, after loading a page or resizing, but should automatically repair itself within a few seconds.


> The close button closes and reopens within seconds.


Have never seen this.

31st Jul 2011 12:59 UTCGeorge Eric Stanley Curtis

Hi Jolyon,


I was on IE8, because I do not like IE9 format.

I tried IE9 just for you.

The toolbar works on IE9.


I shall now return to IE8, which is my preferred browser.


Cheers,

Eric ;)

31st Jul 2011 13:18 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Eric.


Then I have a solution for you!


Install this:


http://code.google.com/chrome/chromeframe/


And it will make Mindat (and many other modern websites) work properly in IE8


Jolyon

31st Jul 2011 18:49 UTCGeorge Eric Stanley Curtis

Thanks,

It is sorted now,

Eric

B)
 
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