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Posted by Harold Moritz (2)  
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 05:55PM
    
Thanks, Branko. I didn't like what Facebook does and now I don't like it even more. At all.
I guess all websites that nowadays have Facebook buttons on their main page (e.g., government sites, museum sites, university sites etc.), will allow FB to get such information. Makes FB pretty powerful if you think about it...

Glad I don't have a computer at home.
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 05:56PM
Yes, I notice pages are loading more slowly.

More importantly, what Branko says is deeply concerning. If I wanted FB to have access to, and the ability to use, misuse, sell, etc. my information, I'd sign up for a FB account.

Mindat's privacy policy states:
"Your personal details will not be revealed to any third party unless you decide to be listed in the members' directory (this is available to other members). All changes made to the database are logged along with the user name of the person who changed it. This information is available to others who have access to the database. Apart from occasional update emails from mindat.org your email address will be kept purely for registration."

By logging on to mindat, I gave Jolyon my IP addresses and my real name. I trusted him not to misuse them. But FB I do not trust. So by simply opening mindat is my privacy being violated? If so, that's a deal-breaker, ladies.

I don't really understand all of this; I just don't want all my business to be owned by FB unless I authorize it.

If there is no problem, then I apologize. Great site, great minerals, great people. Just don't give my s#*t away please.
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 06:04PM
Branko-

Thanks for the clarification. I occasionally post links to Mindat pages so friends and family can see why I enjoy minerals so much - they appreciate it and in at least one case a family member has asked me about starting a collection. Again, thanks.

Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.

Darren
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 06:17PM
    
I enjoy seeing the most recent site updates with the hyperlink to the mineral or locality and user with date and time, which makes me feel connected to the staff of managers and users here, and highlights the dynamic progress of the database.

Understanding the complicated issues of internet privacy and anonymity is important, especially for children... but the mindat toolbar is a far cry from the dreaded HAL 9000. B)-

Scott
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 08:49PM
    
Really, FB is spying on me just by having their logo on the web page?! That has got to go! Does sound like it violates the mindat privacy policy.
I also must rely on a wireless internet connection, which while good is not the fastest, and now this toolbar may be slowing it down more? Mindat should not assume everyone has a lightning fast connection....
I've blocked the toolbar, does that prevent the spying, or just stop me from seeing the toolbar? Will it speed up the page loading? If I customize the bar eventually and take that logo off, does it stop the spying? Why should I even have to be asking these questions?
For the person who's message says FB is so great cuz it's on the stock market, I suggest you ask yourself, as I did, "How do they make any money if the account is free and there are no advertisements?" - by selling your (no longer) private information! Many sing the praises of sites like FB, but I agree with Rock, I just dont find it necessary, in fact just a giant time waster and have opted out. My life is just fine without it, I already have enough real flesh and blood friends and plenty of things (too much I think) to do.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 09:08PM
An IP address is not regarded as personal information under UK and EU law, and that is what we need to be concerned about in regard to Branko's worries.

The internet would simply not work if it was not possible for remote computers to view your IP address.

You may be upset about Facebook having access to your IP address. But each time you access Google, they have your IP address, so do advertisers on any major website you visit (except on mindat).

Google also can record IP addresses from people who visit mindat, because we use both their hosted copy of jquery files (to reduce load on mindat) and also because of the Google ads.

Most people have an IP address that changes frequently (Dynamic IP), and can rarely be resolved to greater than town level, except by law enforcement working in conjunction with your ISP.

If it is possible with a simple IP lookup to get your name and other personal information, it is because you have at some point allowed this information to be associated with your IP address, and has nothing at all to do with Facebook, Google or Mindat!

It's a big panic about nothing.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 09:51PM
Jolyon,

You have a knack for making things worse sometimes. A big panic about nothing? That's pretty arrogant, even for the owner of a site. There, I said it because probably no one else will.

I'll say it again. I do not like my page views obscured by this wretched thing. It is right in the middle of my page views. Now that is pretty straight forward.

Telling me not to worry about it or telling me I'm going to miss out on the thrill of the Mindat experience ain't cutting it.

You're an intelligent guy, Jolyon. I'm sure you considered the backlash this would cause. And you chose to disregard it.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 10:08PM
    
Thanks for the clarification, Jolyon, I do understand about the necessary sharing and changing of IP addresses. I am very sensitive to issues dealing with FB and their ilk and voluntarily try to stay as far away from them as possible. So when I hear they may be gathering info against my will anyway, especially when I'm visiting and contributing to my favorite web site, it doesn't make me comfortable. I don't want to see a good thing ruined by their insidious pervasiveness.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 10:39PM
    
Relax winking smiley
Don't make too much of a fuss about it.
Just as we don't expect to be able to travel the real world incognito it's not obvious to be able to travel and use the internet incognito.
This is good and bad at the same time.
Still, I'm more worried about the burglars that have been active in our village recently....

Cheers,

Harjo
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 10:57PM
    
Please, just give us the option to close the toolbar once, so that it remains closed when we jump to other Mindat pages. Is that really too much to ask?
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 11:00PM
Don't mind it at all,I'm sure everyone will like it after a little while.Change is good,although more difficult the older I get lol.
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 11:04PM
    
What tool bar? Oh!! there it is!! On my screen it's hardly noticeable......or is it me??!!!......
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 14, 2011 11:51PM
    
The solution would seem to be simple, an optional toolbar, in other words a way to turn off the toolbar.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 12:13AM
Seriously, you got credit cards, mobile phones, GPS, etc. that tell the operators where you are 24/7...and you are afraid of a social network which might be spoil your privacy?
I believe it's pretty controversial. Really.
What Jolyon mentioned about Google and the IP adresses is true. Perhaps you should think twice before doing another web search?

Anyhow Branko, I do respect your point of view - despite I mostly disagree with it. I will keep running those groups and I hope young people and open minds keep joining it. So far I was successful (see this conference) and I won't stop the generational renewal is accomplished :)

Chris
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 12:40AM
    
I also would like to have the choice to switch off this tool bar.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 03:12AM
The whole Facebook debacle was just a white elephant.

The real issue is, for some people the toolbar is inconvenient and at worst it really makes the website look foolish.

On my desktop it is annoying as all sin, on my laptop, it is...okay

Jolyon, why can we not just have an option to turn it off? This is not something exciting or new, I've seen these stupid things on all sorts of other blog sites. Those sites, I'm just going to read one article and then I bounce. I don't see how this thing is going to win over any hearts or minds. Since MinDat is ALL about digging through pages, with locality trees, bajillionze of photo pages to flip through, the reoccurring banner is maddening.
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 04:28AM
    
I get the sense that The Thing can't be made optional or Jolyon doesn't want it optional.
Either way for me I don't like where The Thing is now.
If we must have it, it would be nice to have The Thing at the top of the page, preferably either above or below the advert banners, if this is possible.

venting completed,
thanks
stephanie
avatar Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 07:03AM
    
Jolyon,

"If it is possible with a simple IP lookup to get your name and other personal information, it is because you have at some point allowed this information to be associated with your IP address..."

I guess "allow" is probably misleading: it is the law (at least here where I live), and AFAK it is also required on a worldwide scale that your domain information with your NIC is correct.

The internet is based on the IP protocol and would not work without it. This importance has led to legislation in some countries to protect individuals that have a static IP address associated with them and I am happy to live in one such country.

The matter here is one of choices. As you have to give away your own IP address or that of your proxy server and/or ISP to the owner of the site you are surfing to for technical reasons it all boils down to the question: Do I choose to trust the site owner or not? If the answer to that question is “Yes”, then you can go to her/his site. But if your answer is “No”, like it would probably be with porn sites and notorious data collectors/miners, then you simply do not go there. So it is my personal choice to trust you and hence I visit Mindat on quite a regular basis. But it is also my personal choice not to trust Facebook and other notorious data collectors/miners and therefore I do not visit their sites. The internet is a much smaller place for me than it is for others, but I can very well live with that.

Up until you have decided to implement the changes the way you did there was no problem with Mindat. But now I find myself in a conflict: suddenly I have to take the good with the bad, and have no possibility of avoiding the bad in a site-supported way.

For me there is an easy way out: as stated earlier I mainly access Mindat through one of my computers at home that is internet-connected and through my internet connection at work. Both these internet connections have an in-depth protection against the notorious data collectors/miners that includes firewalls, access-rules on the routers, DNS servers and the tracking protection of my preferred browser. So I am pretty confident that on these two computers I will have my privacy protected. Again it was my personal choice to implement exceptions to the rules that govern my protective measures for e.g.: [ajax.googleapis.com] in order to have Mindat work properly. Fortunately I know how to parameterize a Cisco router and firewall and how to configure a DNS-server so I am able to protect myself. But until such time as there is a way to respect my personal choices in regards to privacy I will access Mindat through these two protected computers exclusively (which is fortunately 90%+ of the time), but I will no longer access Mindat on other computers (like on holiday, through public WiFi hotspots, on my Phone,…).

We will see how that works out for others that do not have this specific knowledge.

Branko
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 08:09AM
    
Thank, Jolyon, for explaining the bigger picture.

I guess we should all be aware that when entering the internet we become partly transparent citizens.
If multinationals assemble user profiles, it also has advantages. For instance, I like that websites suggest to have a look at items (e.g., books, music) my user profile suggests I might have an interest in.
Hacking websites of multinationals happens all the time, but as long as only user profiles are stolen, there won't be much damage. It's a different thing, of course, with data such as bank account details, credit card numbers etc. Cybercrime needs heavier punishments IMO.
Just thinking loud … - I am sure more apt people have tackled these issues.
Re: Mindat toolbar
July 15, 2011 08:18AM
@ Branko: Thanks for your detailed explanations,

Your posts make me more pure joy to watch here!


@ All: Toolbar or not.......this decision is the decision of the side holder.

Because the excited discussion he will make his thoughts already ...

The developments here lately let me ask you excited:

"Where we are headed?" Wohin wird diese "Reise"/Entwicklung noch führen?

Best regards

(a worried)

Marcus
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