Home PageAbout MindatThe Mindat ManualHistory of MindatCopyright StatusWho We AreContact UsAdvertise on Mindat
Donate to MindatCorporate SponsorshipSponsor a PageSponsored PagesMindat AdvertisersAdvertise on Mindat
Learning CenterWhat is a mineral?The most common minerals on earthInformation for EducatorsMindat ArticlesThe ElementsThe Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryGeologic Time
Minerals by PropertiesMinerals by ChemistryAdvanced Locality SearchRandom MineralRandom LocalitySearch by minIDLocalities Near MeSearch ArticlesSearch GlossaryMore Search Options
The Mindat ManualAdd a New PhotoRate PhotosLocality Edit ReportCoordinate Completion ReportAdd Glossary Item
Mining CompaniesStatisticsUsersMineral MuseumsClubs & OrganizationsMineral Shows & EventsThe Mindat DirectoryDevice SettingsThe Mineral Quiz
Photo SearchPhoto GalleriesSearch by ColorNew Photos TodayNew Photos YesterdayMembers' Photo GalleriesPast Photo of the Day GalleryPhotography
╳Discussions
💬 Home🔎 Search📅 LatestGroups
EducationOpen discussion area.Fakes & FraudsOpen discussion area.Field CollectingOpen discussion area.FossilsOpen discussion area.Gems and GemologyOpen discussion area.GeneralOpen discussion area.How to ContributeOpen discussion area.Identity HelpOpen discussion area.Improving Mindat.orgOpen discussion area.LocalitiesOpen discussion area.Lost and Stolen SpecimensOpen discussion area.MarketplaceOpen discussion area.MeteoritesOpen discussion area.Mindat ProductsOpen discussion area.Mineral ExchangesOpen discussion area.Mineral PhotographyOpen discussion area.Mineral ShowsOpen discussion area.Mineralogical ClassificationOpen discussion area.Mineralogy CourseOpen discussion area.MineralsOpen discussion area.Minerals and MuseumsOpen discussion area.PhotosOpen discussion area.Techniques for CollectorsOpen discussion area.The Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryOpen discussion area.UV MineralsOpen discussion area.Recent Images in Discussions
GeneralAragonite
4th Sep 2012 14:56 UTCChris Deroo
On what basis rests the statement that Aragonite is named after the type locality Molina de Aragon and not the Spanish region Aragon ?
Is there a text ? So far, I didn’t find any, or is it just guesswork ?
Thanks for any reply
Kind regards,
Chris
4th Sep 2012 15:14 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
http://rruff.info/rruff_1.0/reference_search.php
Werner (1788) - my reading of old style German printing isn't too up to date.
http://rruff.info/rruff_1.0/uploads/Bergmannisches_Journal_1788_95.pdf
Hauy C (1791) Sur l'arragonite de Werner, Bulletin des Science, par la Société Philomathique 2, 67-68
http://rruff.info/rruff_1.0/uploads/Bulletin_1791_67.pdf
"They are found in Espaque between the kingdoms of Aragon and Valencia, which has been called by Werner Arragonites, there are also near the Pyrenees"
4th Sep 2012 16:17 UTCChris Deroo
The text from Werner (1788) does not give a locality. What’s more, the mineral around that time hadn’t even received its name.
The text from Haüy dates from ‘frimaire of the republican year 7’, which is from November 22th to December 21st 1799 and not 1791 as stated in Rruff. In that text Haüy says ‘that the mineral is found in Spain between the kingdoms of Aragon and Valencia, and that’s why it is called Aragonite by Werner’, which only refers to the kingdom.
And there is more evidence in that direction. The German geologist and mineralogist Johann Joseph Christian Herrgen (1765 - 1816), who worked mostly in Spain in his ‘Anales de Historia Natural’ from 1799 says about Aragonite : ‘El Aragonito se encuentra en Aragon, y por eso le dió Werner este nombre’. (Aragonite is found in Aragon, that’s why Werner gave it its name).
The statement that Werner mistakenly placed the type locality Molina de Aragon in the Aragon region, while in reality it belongs to Guadalajara is also wrong. Molina de Aragon belonged to the kingdom of Aragon since 1369. The term ‘de Aragon’ has a reason. It is only in 1812 during the independance war (1808 – 1814) that Molina de Aragon became part of the province Guadalajara as is stated by the Spanish historian Antonio Herrera Casado in his work ‘Molina de Aragón : Veinte siglos de historia’ (Molina de Aragon: twenty centuries of history) : ‘El año siguiente, quando en Cádiz surgia la prímera Constitución espagñola, los diputados de Molina hacián sonar su voz de infatigable deceo de autonomía y libertad. Incorporada al territoria de Cuenca, fue luego reconocido el Señorío como parte de la provincia de Guadalajara, passando finalmente a ser incluido dentro de esta demarcación geográfico-adminstrativa’. So when Werner gave the mineral its name ‘arragon’ around 1796, he was right, Molina de Aragon still belonged to Aragon !
So until now, all the evidence I’ve found for the name Aragonite points to the Aragon province and not the type locality Molina de Aragon. And my question remains : ‘On what basis rests the statement that Aragonite is named after the type locality Molina de Aragon and not the Spanish region Aragon ? Is there a text or was it just guess-work ?
Regards,
Chris
4th Sep 2012 16:52 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
The reference he uses is AG Werner (1797) in FJA Ester, Versuch. Min. 2,1039
http://rruff.info/rruff_1.0/uploads/Versuch_einer_Mineralogie_fur_Anfanger_2_1797_1039.pdf
4th Sep 2012 17:47 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
The indefatigable and notoriously meticulous Spanish mineralogical bibliographer Dr. Miguel Calvo at the University of Zaragoza is publishing on this topic.
4th Sep 2012 19:05 UTCChris Deroo
But I think you just proved my point
David : The type locality given by Hey is correct as far as he gives the place in Aragon. At the moment Werner named the mineral, Molina de Aragon was part of that province.
Alfredo : The type locality is indeed Molina de Aragon as given by Torrubia and is not in Aragon, today ! But it certainly was when Torrubia described it.
I agree that Werner mixed up geographically when he named the mineral. But that just means that Werner named the mineral after the province and not after the type locality.
So strictly speaking, the type locality of Aragonite is undoubtedly Molina de Aragon, which today is in Guadalajara, but at the end of the XVIIIe century was in Aragon and Werner named the mineral Aragonite mistakenly after the province and not after the type locality, which he probably didn’t even knew, as you say.
Has Dr. Calvo already published upon the subject ?
Kind regards,
Chris
4th Sep 2012 20:20 UTCEmilio Fernández
In Spain the actual provinces ("provincias") was established in 1833. In Werners time there was medieval divisions and the territory could belong to a few persons: "señor" (lord), "marqués" (marquis), "duque" (duke), ...And the territory had the name of these persons. In the case of Molina de Aragón was "Señorío de Molina" and belonged to the kingdom of Castile ("Corona de Castilla").
From the same book you have cited: ‘Molina de Aragón : Veinte siglos de historia’ there is a transcription to wikipedia:
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Se%C3%B1or%C3%ADo_de_Molina (in spanish)
"Señorío de Molina" almost always belonged to Castilla, so when Werner put the name belonged to the kingdom of Castile.
The other "type locality" was Minglanilla (not Mingranilla) also in the kingdom of Castile (close to the kingdom of Valencia (in "Corona de Aragón") ). Now its known that the salt mine where it's possible to find aragonite belongs to "La Pesquera" municipality ("municipio") and not to Minglanilla.
Miguel Calvo has a web page where you can read what he has published in his books:
http://milksci.unizar.es/miner/mineralesp/tipo.html (in spanish)
He thinks that Werner puts the name according to labels or references where appeared the name "Molina de Aragón" and not "Aragón". I think we don´t know what were the reasons of Werner but it's almost sure (you must read the web page) that the samples he knew was from Molina and not Aragon, so the mineral has its name due to Molina not Aragon.
4th Sep 2012 20:31 UTCFrank de Wit Manager
I see that there were no pictures yet of the locality itself... Incredible.
So I am uploading some ;)
-> http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?site=1&loc=3106
Cheers, Frank
ps1: there are x localities around Molina de Aragón where it's relatively easy to find aragonite. Most of those localities have a nice view towards the castle in the village. I only uploaded pictures of the outcrop above the Gallo river though (NW of the village). The other localities perhaps later when I have more time.
ps2: I have strong doubts, that the larger aragonite crystals in the gallery http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=3106 are actually from the Gallo river. At the Gallo river, on multiple visits, I have only seen smaller crystals. The larger crystals are relatively easy to find on the south side of Molina de Aragón where I took this picture ( http://www.mindat.org/photo-485871.html ). The Gallo river runs a few kilometers north of there... Sorry to add this to the discussion ;)
5th Sep 2012 17:01 UTCChris Deroo
Regards,
Chris
Mindat.org is an outreach project of the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 24, 2024 23:47:16
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 24, 2024 23:47:16