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GeneralAnother Annoying Aspect of the New (and Improved?) Format

4th Jul 2015 18:06 UTCDon Swenson

I enter the site and see a topic that piques my interest. I click on it and receive the following:

Trash

Unwanted messages (eg spam) thrown in here.

Sorry, you do not have permission to read this forum.

Yahhs, Bawsse! How high would you like me to jump? I suppose I should be gratified that the message does include the word, sorry. It certainly didn't in anyway inform me-----Isn't that the purpose for this website?!?

4th Jul 2015 18:14 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

I suspect you are referring to a vague ad that several people replied to, asking what they wanted to know, etc. Finally someone pointed out that it was an ad. So rather than deleting the topic, I moved it to "trash" so other managers would be alerted. Perhaps I should have just deleted the topic.:-S

4th Jul 2015 19:52 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert

Rob, about that advert - I've reported it a few times, because it sends you to a very questionable website that says they can get you visas, papers, etc. to get into US/Canadian/British universities. Usually it contained a link to their website. It's a big scam here in the U.K. as well. Deletion is a good approach.

4th Jul 2015 20:00 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I hardly think it's an annoying aspect that we don't let you see the spam we've thrown in the trash :)

But yes Rob, I think in general spam should be deleted rather than put in the trash.

4th Jul 2015 20:01 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

It does seem like the canned message could be a little less rude to all readers clicking on the subject.

4th Jul 2015 20:07 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Rude? It says sorry!

4th Jul 2015 20:13 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Agree!

Spam is quite useless and should be deleted, both in electronic and canned food form!!! :-D

4th Jul 2015 20:37 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

If you move a message to trash, you should probably clear the home page cache so a link doesn't show up on the front page. You really aren't missing anything by not seeing spam and it could lead you to a website where you might get infected by a virus. We can use these messages to figure out who is spamming the messageboard and lock them out of the site.

5th Jul 2015 01:57 UTCDon Swenson

Rude? It says sorry!

SORRY!!!

Jolyon: My Scot's grandmother used to recite to me when I used that word insincerely (in her opinion), "I didn't know the gun was loaded; so sorry my friend". YOUR response is well beyond rude.

5th Jul 2015 08:22 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert

It might be a mistake to say anything here, but I'll try...I hope it's taken with good humor.

Don, as an American living in the U.K., I learned quickly that there are subtle differences in the way we express things, and it's often said that we are two nations divided by a common language. An example: I'll ask my (British) husband "Would you like a cup of coffee?" and he will reply "Oh, go on then."

To me, that phrase "go on, then" always meant a challenge, like "Oh, get away!" But here, it's simply saying yes, as in "Well, if you're twisting my arm!" I still grit my teeth and feeling like throwing the coffee at him.:-D

When the British say "sorry", it truly means "sorry". In America, that word may have lost its sincerity, but not here. Jolyon's reply is a simple statement, and there is absolutely nothing rude about it. It says that unwanted messages like spam are being put in a holding bin ("trash") until deleted, and that Mindat members cannot access them. The reply is polite, and the restricted access for us is appropriate (I know that, because I have reported this person and his message on several occasions.)

Best wishes, Becky

5th Jul 2015 11:29 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

Great reply Becky, thank you.

Well if sorry is such an offensive word to Americans then lets take it out and just leave 'you do not have permission to read this forum'.

I've got to ask our fellow Americans, if you physically bump/knock into a person accidentally or if you make a genuine honest mistake what words do you say/express?

Are there any other nations in the world that do not use the word sorry sincerely? I only ask so as to understand/learn and adapt on how to communicate effectively.

5th Jul 2015 13:12 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert

Debbie, I'll speak as an American (somewhat humorously, I hope) again - some seem to find it necessary to be effusive in apologies, e.g. "Oh my gosh, I am just sooooooooooooooo terribly sorry!" It's almost as though "I am sorry" is not sincere enough, although it should be. (That is not universally true in the States, of course, and not meant to cause offense!) To the Brits, that would sound over the top and as gushing as a severed artery. We all have our quirks!

5th Jul 2015 13:55 UTCBob Harman

The nuances of language usage such as being discussed here are common. Witness this current discussion between the nuance of the word "sorry" and its context in British English and the nuance of "sorry" and its context in American English. BECKY and DEBBIE have just discussed this quite well.

But for me the bigger issue here may be the overall thread with its focus on what constitutes "trash" and how best to handle it on Mindat.

"Trash", like porn at times seems difficult to define, but you know it when you see it. How to handle it here on Mindat is like the Orwellian phrase from George Orwell's book, Animal Farm. Paraphrasing: "All people are equal, but some people are more equal than others". So most Mindat users and contributors are no longer allowed to see the "trash" postings immediately after they are caught by the moderators and put into the trash heap to be shortly deleted.

So like my other previous thought provoking postings, I propose a change: put all the "trash postings" into a newly created "trash thread" where anyone can see the postings for 24 or 48 hours and then they are deleted. Anyone truly not interested in "trash" would never have to go there and any Mindat user have any vicarious interest in the "trash postings" could visit the thread and see the postings for the brief time before their being deleted. Any folks agree with this approach? CHEERS…..BOB

5th Jul 2015 14:17 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

By leaving the spam visible for 24 or 48 hours, Bob, we would be rewarding the spammers, who want their spam to be seen. We'd just be encouraging more commercial spam. Instant deletion might tell them they're wasting their time and they'll leave Mindat alone. That's the hope anyway, although lots of spam is posted by robots, who aren't given to caring much about wasting time.

The reason some Mindat managers posted spam to the Trash folder (instead of deleting it) is in the hope that our programmers, Jolyon and David, could use the data therein to come up with better filters for rejecting spam. Nevertheless, the spammers seem to be always one jump ahead of us. But why any Mindat users would want to read the type of commercial drivel we put in the trash is beyond my comprehension. Anyone want to buy discount sneakers from sketchy suppliers, or subscribe to a new cable sports channel? ;-)

5th Jul 2015 14:37 UTCBob Harman

An addendum about my philosophy in all of this. I have been a Mindat member for nearly 4 years now. Longer than some users and shorter than many. I am not a moderator so I am not privy to the uses afforded the moderators.

I have taken my proposed approach to above discussion based on the openness of the whole internet. I fully know and understand that Mindat is a 501 C3 organization site devoted to the open discussion of mineral related topics and has the right (but I question Mindat's OBLIGATION) to limit unwanted postings; maybe it should be briefly open to "trash postings" more or less like the internet.

In most parts of the world you can freely go on to porn sites, racist and anti semitic sites, neo-nazi sites, terrorist sympathizer sites and other vulgar and disgusting sites. The vast majority of us have no interest in these sites and never enter these sites, but they are there as part of our freedom of learning and expression. While many folks may want these sites banned, to delete these disgusting sites is really to abridge our freedoms. That loss of our freedom might be the bigger loss for all of us. Maybe that should be Mindat's philosophy for trash postings???? CHEERS…..BOB

5th Jul 2015 14:40 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert

I think the essence of the complaint here is that we have clicked on a disallowed message, and then tell the innocent clicker that he/she does not have permission to do something. In this country, that is like saying, "Get lost, kid, you bother me." And we're saying that to our welcomed guest! A very few more words of explanation should solve that issue.

5th Jul 2015 15:53 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

If the postings are advertisement for non mineral related topics then get rid of them. If the postings are mineral related, but of a controversial or critical nature they should be kept viewable, as long as they lie somewhere in the realm of this site. Censorship does not sit well with Americans. It's drilled into our little heads as children, that it's bad.

5th Jul 2015 16:18 UTCMatthew Stanley

Instead of

"Trash

Unwanted messages (eg spam) thrown in here.

Sorry, you do not have permission to read this forum."

Could it say

"This message has been moved to the Trash bin.

Moderators move unwanted messages such as spam here.

We are sorry, but you do not have permission to view messages in the trash bin."

5th Jul 2015 16:18 UTCLászló Horváth Manager

Rudy,

You say:

"Censorship does not sit well with Americans. It's drilled into our little heads as children, that it's bad."

You will have to get used to the idea of your government reading your emails and listening to your phone conversations. All this is meekly accepted by the population.

5th Jul 2015 16:19 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Many people have worked many hours to create a site that is focused and useful to people interested in minerals (and a few lapidary folks ;-) ). Over this time we have built up a reputation as a scientifically oriented site. We have specific rules that state you can not offer items for sale. Opening up the trash forum would reward people looking to sell/scam people using our site. One thing they are trying to do is create a higher relevance score so that their sites show up higher on search engine sites. This helps them in their quest for more profits and would also have the effect of lowering our ratings with the search engines in the long run.

Things that go there are messages about things like live sports feeds, selling flowers, diet supplements, etc.

5th Jul 2015 17:28 UTCBob Harman

EVERYONE, Say it all as pleasantly and politely as you want. As noted it all boils down to a mild form of censorship.

"It is our website, we developed it and we are the bosses and we know what is best for everyone else". 'Therefore we feel you can't make your own decisions to see or read whatever we don't want you all to see and read".

Now I really do fully understand this Mindat philosophy and I am not strongly opposing it simply because the junk postings are just that. But at the same time I am not quite comfortable with it and is worthy of discussion at this time. In addition, when I choose to donate I must think about it. I never donated to any cause that did not really agree with my personal philosophy. CHEERS……BOB

5th Jul 2015 17:28 UTCBob Harman

6th Jul 2015 11:03 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

We have always been clear that the mesageboard is moderated and postings that break our rules (spam, commercial postings, offensive, rude messages or other messages that we feel are detrimental to the community nature of mindat) will be removed.

The messageboard is provided by us as a favour to the community. There is no right for people to say what they want without consequences and without control. I know as a fact we will lose far more people (and far more donors) from supporting us if we stopped moderating the messageboard properly than we would by continuing with this policy.

But you are right. It is our website and because of that we do get to choose which posts are allowed and which are not. There are many other mineral forums out there and every single one of them operates on the same basis.

I appreciate your feedback and concern, but this is not something we can, or wish, to change our policies on.

Jolyon

6th Jul 2015 11:28 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I have removed the 'trash' area from our forum. I did not realise this would upset so many people.

Previously when spam messages or other messages that broke our rules were posted a manager would move them to 'trash' so they could be analysed - for example to see if there are patterns with particular spammers that would allow us to block their postings more efficiently.

Although the fact you see so little spam on mindat is a good indication that our systems DO work very well.

So because some of you feel upset that these messages are somehow hidden from you I have removed this system entirely. Now, spam messages will just have to be deleted immediately. In the future if you click on a spam message and it has been removed it will simply say the message is no longer available.

However, as I've said before, we will continue to moderate and remove messages in the way we have done for more than a decade in order to keep the site running smoothly.

Jolyon

6th Jul 2015 14:03 UTCTony Peterson Expert

Canadians are renowned for saying "sorry" frequently and at the merest chance of giving offense, eg, I'm sorry my toe got under your foot. So:

I'm sorry I read all this.

6th Jul 2015 14:30 UTCNelse Miller

I have found that the moderators of this site are often quite tolerant of wandering off on tangents (which I am prone to do) and the expression of opinions as long as they are politely stated. After wandering onto some poorly monitored sites full of personal attacks, blatant attempts to hijack threads, attempts to lure users into dangerous areas, etc., I would say that Mindat monitors are doing their jobs well. Given the nature of the internet these days, we really do need policing to keep the site usable and maintain its' integrity. P.S. I am not trying to kiss up to anyone. If I cross the line, give me a kick where it will do the most good.

6th Jul 2015 14:55 UTCJohn Oostenryk

I have been very happy with the moderators' decisions.

I concurr heartily, NO rewards for spammers and no concessions necessary for unpleasant 'trolls'.

'Nuff said!

~JO:)

6th Jul 2015 14:56 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

I know, Laszlo. Americans say they won't stand for censorship, but it's everywhere now during these PC times. There's a big to do about the Confederate flag in the U.S. right now. One group of people wants it taken down from certain places because of its representation of racism and slavery and those for the flag claim it has to do with heritage and not racism. Even an old TV show from the 1980's (" The Dukes of Hazzard") was canceled from reruns on TV because the car on the show has a Confederate flag painted on its roof.

9th Jul 2015 21:47 UTCWes Gannaway

All of this talk of censorship is fine but as this is a privately held website, the owners can omit any statement they wish. When censorship is brought up, it usually is dealing with governmental issues. Every newspaper in the U. S. has a group of editors that choose what to print or put on their website, even if it is false. The same goes for almost all postings on the web from any group that is motivated by special interests. Having said this, I am very happy with the way the editors of this website have kept to the topic. Wes

10th Jul 2015 11:48 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

Today, I blocked some new users who would surely post " trash ".

One gave in his description to send cheeply flowers in India !

2 where proposing Rakhi ad's

1 promoting Bungee jumping

and another one muscle and food supplements.

These new members are not involved in our hobby in any way.

I hope nobody will throw me a rock for this.

I hope this helps.

Cheers.

Paul.

10th Jul 2015 13:37 UTCDon Swenson

"In the future if you click on a spam message and it has been removed it will simply say the message is no longer available."

To me, this is infinitely preferable to the one that said I'm "not authorized" to view a message. If you will accept a suggestion, why not say the message is no longer available because it violates Mindat's rules?

10th Jul 2015 15:06 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I am fully behind Jolyon on the way he is handling this, job well done!(tu)

10th Jul 2015 16:27 UTCD. Peck

Me, too !!!

10th Jul 2015 17:34 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

Since this subject has gone on and on and on with two separate tracks, I will attempt to clarify what I and others have said. Many, perhaps most of us, don't care if we can't look in the trash, we are fine with the managers putting inappropriate posts there, "censorship" is not an issue for us. We only asked that the standard message when we click on a link from the home page said something other than "you are not authorized to view this forum". Various alternative suggestions have been offered. It seems like an easy fix but maybe not. And for me, it's really not a big deal anyway, only slightly less annoying than everyone getting on their high horse to defend the site and castigate us for a very minor suggestion. I'm moving on.

10th Jul 2015 18:11 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"It seems like an easy fix but maybe not."

Have you read Jolyon's above message? He has already removed this system entirely.

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