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Improving Mindat.orgMineral Names do not match IMA list

17th Oct 2014 19:09 UTCJosh Golden

Greetings,


Hopefully this is in the right place...


I have recently completed an analysis of mindat's mineral name compared to the current IMA list of mineral species and have found some discrepancies. Could someone, in the position to do so, please examine this list and make the appropriate corrections? The following table lists the mineral name as listed in mindat in the 1st column, the second column includes notes, and the third column has the mineral name as listed in the most current version of the IMA list of minerals. The current IMA list can be found at http://pubsites.uws.edu.au/ima-cnmnc/imalist.htm


This tables columns are separated by three pipe symbols (|||):


Mindat mineral name|||notes|||IMA-approved mineral name
Adranosite-(Al)|||name not officially changed to Adranosite-(Al), only proposed|||Adranosite
Argentian Tetrahedrite|||"ian" change to "o", no space|||ArgentotetrahedriteX
Calcio-Olivine|||"O" in olivine should be lower-case "o"|||Calcio-olivine X
D'Ansite|||"A" should be lower-case "a"|||D'ansite
Fabrièsite|||should be no accent over 1st "e"|||Fabriesite
Ferro-aluminoceladonite|||should not be hyphenated|||Ferroaluminoceladonite X
Ferrokesterite|||missing accent mark over 2nd "e"|||Ferrokësterite X
Ferrotaaffeite-2N’2S|||apostrophe different|||Ferrotaaffeite-2N'2S
Georgiadèsite|||should be no accent over 2nd "e"|||Georgiadesite X
Hydroxycalcioroméite|||?? The accented "e" may be different|||Hydroxycalcioroméite
Kesterite|||missing accent mark over 1st "e"|||Kësterite X
Magnesiofoitite|||should be hyphenated|||Magnesio-foitite X
Magnesiotaaffeite-2N’2S|||apostrophe different|||Magnesiotaaffeite-2N'2S
Magnesiotaaffeite-6N’3S|||apostrophe different|||Magnesiotaaffeite-6N'3S
Metauranocircite|||add "-I" as suffix|||Metauranocircite-I X
Novakite|||should be accent over "a"|||Novákite X
Oxycalcioroméite|||?? The accented "e" may be different|||Oxycalcioroméite
Cuproroméite|||Partzite listed as synonym of Cuproroméite; name never officially changed to Cuproroméite. Partzite is the IMA approved mineral name.|||Partzite
Písekite-(Y)|||should not be an accent over the 1st "i"|||Pisekite-(Y)
Rémondite-(Ce)|||should not be an accent over the 1st "e"|||Remondite-(Ce)

Rémondite-(La)|||should not be an accent over the 1st "e"|||Remondite-(La)
Routhiérite|||should not be an accent over the 1st "i"|||Routhierite
Shkatulkaite|||listed as synonym of Shkatulkaite; Shkatulkaite is not the correct spelling|||Shkatulkalite X
Uranocircite|||listed in IMA master list as Uranocircite-II|||Uranocircite-II

Uranophane|||should have "-α" as suffix|||Uranophane-α
Villamaninite|||should be accent over 2nd "i"|||Villamanínite
β-Fergusonite-(Ce)|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Fergusonite-(Ce)-β X
β-Fergusonite-(Nd)|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Fergusonite-(Nd)-β X
β-Fergusonite-(Y)|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Fergusonite-(Y)-β X
β-Roselite|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Roselite-β
β-Sulphur|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Sulphur-β X
β-Uranophane|||current nomenclature β is suffix|||Uranophane-β X




Josh Golden

Research Specialist

University of Arizona

Dept. of Geosciences

17th Oct 2014 19:48 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Concerning písekite the mistake is on the IMA List (see type-description).

I will inform Marco Pasero..


Reference:

Krejcí, A. (1923): Písekit, nový radioaktivnínerost nebo klamotvar. Casopis pro Mineralogii a Geologii, 1, 2-5.

Bouska, V. & Johan, Z. (1972): New data on písekite. Lithos, 5, 93-103.

18th Oct 2014 08:00 UTCPeter Haas

Roméite was named after Romé de l'Isle. His name is written with "accent aigu" (in English, acute accent) on the final "e". It is very unlikely to be written with a different accent, as "grave" or "circonflexe" (è, ê) never appear on a final "e" in the French language. If the IMA list spells it differently, it has it wrong.

18th Oct 2014 11:50 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Yes Peter. Correct.

Pasero is now informed.

18th Oct 2014 14:20 UTCJakub Jirásek Expert

Agree in case of novákite. It was named in honor of Jiří Novák (1902-1971), professor of mineralogy at Charles University, Prague.

18th Oct 2014 17:14 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Thanks Josh for taking time to check this.


Some of the mineral pages are updated after some double checking, marked with a "X" in your list above. Others will follow, and be marked likewise.


Ferrotaaffeite-2N’2S. This is the apostrophe-type used in the type description.

18th Oct 2014 17:31 UTCLászló Horváth Manager

Josh,


Rémondite-(Ce)|||should not be an accent over the 1st "e"|||Remondite-(Ce)

Rémondite-(La)|||should not be an accent over the 1st "e"|||Remondite-(La)


Rémondite-(Ce) & Rémondite-(La) are correct the way they are with the accent. The minerals were named in honor of Dr. Guy Rémond.

18th Oct 2014 19:16 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Thanks for your good work Josh!


Argentian Tetrahedrite http://www.mindat.org/min-10677.html is correctly listed at Mindat as a Ag bearing tetrahedrite, but Argentotetrahedrite is an honest new species - an Ag dominant tetrahedrite. With 3 different metal sites I'm not sure what dominant means. I thought I saw Argetotetrahedrite here at Mindat but the search doesn't find it. I'll add it.

18th Oct 2014 19:31 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Now added http://www.mindat.org/min-46256.html However with no access to the literature much remains to be filled in. Help??

18th Oct 2014 20:03 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Fabrièsite|||should be no accent over 1st "e"|||Fabriesite :


"Fabriesite is named in memory of Jacques Fabriès (1932–2000), former professor of the “Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle” in Paris (France)". Ferraris et al (2014).


This is a case where the type description (as the IMA list), don't write the mineral name with the accent, even though the the name of the person the mineral is named with the grave accent in the paper.


http://www.schweizerbart.de/papers/ejm/detail/26/82257/Trinepheline_and_fabriesite_two_new_mineral_species_from_the_jadeite_deposit_of_Tawmaw_Myanmar

19th Oct 2014 13:18 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

The names are those which are in the type descriptions.


For exemple, remondite in the type description is without accent and this is the correct valid name (remondite nor rémondite).

19th Oct 2014 15:08 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I am sure Dr. Guy Rémond would be offended. Mispelling ones name is hardly an honour. However maybe it is named after his twin the one that doesn't spell it with an accent. LOL

19th Oct 2014 20:08 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Villamaninite:


In the text of the type description it is spelled with 2 accents ! : Villàmanínite. The locality name ( which it is named after), however is spelled with only one: Villamanín.

Cfr: http://www.minersoc.org/pages/Archive-MM/Volume_19/19-88-14.pdf

20th Oct 2014 09:05 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Georgiadèsite|||should be no accent over 2nd "e"|||Georgiadesite


But in this case, the mineral name is introduced with an accent in the type description:


Lacroix, A. and Schulten, A. de. (1907): Sur une nouvellle espèce minérale, provenant des scories plombeuses athéniennes du Laurium. Comptes rendus hebdomadaires des séances de l'Académie des sciences , 45, 783-784.


http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3099v/f784.image.r=Schulten.langFR Please, look at the bottom of the page..

20th Oct 2014 15:32 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"the mineral name is introduced with an accent in the type description"


In such cases, it would clearly be interesting to check the spelling in the original proposal in the IMA archive.

I would guess, some journals neglected accents back in older times.

20th Oct 2014 20:35 UTCJosh Golden

Thanks to everyone for the responses. I spent quite some time on the analysis.


In the case of:


Hydroxycalcioroméite|||?? The accented "e" may be different|||Hydroxycalcioroméite

Oxycalcioroméite|||?? The accented "e" may be different|||Oxycalcioroméite


I am using both a perl script I wrote and excel (for redundancy, perl and excel give me the same results) to do a direct comparison between the data exported from mindat and the IMA master list at rruff.info/ima.


The names above appear to be identical, however it can be tested simply if they are the same by placing the names in excel (or your favorite free spreadsheet software) and using the formula =exact("Hydroxycalcioroméite","Hydroxycalcioroméite") and =exact("Oxycalcioroméite","Oxycalcioroméite"). If the result of these formulas is "FALSE" the names are different. I cannot say which is the correct accent as the look to be identical.

------------------

I have also analysed the mineral lists listed in the IMA-master list and the IMA list at rruff.info/ima and prior to the IMA Commission on New Minerals, Nomenclature and Classification (CNMNC) Newsletter 21 in Mineralogical Magazine, August 2014, Vol. 78(4), pp. 797-804. rruff and the IMA-master list were identical. I am using the mindat academic export provided to me by Jolyon and the minerals listed at the localities in the export to compare with the current IMA-list and have posted the differences in this thread.

20th Oct 2014 22:58 UTCJosh Golden

Knut and Marco et al.,


For Ferrotaaffeite-2N2S:

According to both

Williams P A, Hatert F, Pasero M, Mills S J (2011) IMA Commission on new minerals, nomenclature and classification (CNMNC) Newsletter 10. New minerals and nomenclature modifications approved in 2011. Mineralogical Magazine 75, 2549-2561


and


Yang Z, Ding K, De Fourestier J, Mao Q, Li H (2012) Ferrotaaffeite-2N'2S, a new mineral species, and the crystal structure of Fe2+-rich magnesiotaaffeite-2N'2S from the Xianghualing tin-polymetallic ore field, Hunan Province, China. The Canadian Mineralogist 50, 21-29


The apostrophe is the one as listed on Mindat, lets call it the "curved" apostrophe as opposed to the "straight" apostrophe listed in the IMA list.


I also checked Ferrotaaffeite-6N3S (it is currently a match between mindat and ima) and has an apostrophe of the "straight" variety. However, upon checking the reference: Armbruster T (2002) Revised nomenclature of högbomite, nigerite, and taafeite minerals. European Journal of Mineralogy 14, 389-395., it appears as though the apostrophe in mindat and the ima list should be a "curved" for Ferrotaaffeite-6N'3S as well.


Honestly, I don't think it matters which apostrophe is used, I just believe that they should be the same between mindat and the ima list so that it facilitates the comparison of the two lists. I am not trying to nit-pick, but when they are not identical it causes automated comparison more difficult.


I am working on building a companion database to mindat at the University of Arizona called "The Mineral Evolution Database" that will be tabulating published ages of deposits and minerals and assigning the appropriate ages to the appropriate minerals at each of the localities listed on Mindat.


This likely warrants a new thread, but lets say you wanted to see all of the ages for molybdenite at the mindat localities, you can find them here: http://rruff.info/mineral_list/locality.php?mineral_name=Molybdenite


Or if you want to see the ages for a specific locality, let's say http://rruff.info/mineral_list/locality.php?mindat_id=27913


Or for a specific mineral from China just click the (*) next to the mineral name at http://rruff.info/mineral_list/locality.php?mindat_id=693 then click "show mineral details".


for example: all of the dated molybdenite samples in China http://rruff.info/mineral_list/locality_mineral.php?mineral_name=Molybdenite&locality_id=26472 (click "toggle table display" at the bottom of the page).

21st Oct 2014 19:55 UTCRonald J. Pellar Expert

Josh,


The accented é can be inserted as a single character (U+00E9 Latin Small Letter E With Acute ) or by construction with e and the acute accent ˊ (U+02CA Modifier Letter Acute Accent ). Excel will treat these as different characters even though they both represent the same character.

22nd Oct 2014 13:04 UTCLászló Horváth Manager

Ron,


"Excel will treat these as different characters even though they both represent the same character."


The characters e and é are not the same, as they represent distinct letters in the alphabets and distinct sounds in languages where they use these (i.e. French, Hungarian etc.).

22nd Oct 2014 14:09 UTCGerhard Niklasch Expert

Ron didn't claim that e was the same as é, but rather pointed out that one and the same character é can be written in more than one way in Unicode: as a single character at code position U+00E9 in the page inherited from ISO8859-1, or as a lowercase e (code position inherited from ASCII) followed by the combining acute accent at code position U+02CA.


Some of the roméite-group species names in mindat had originally been entered one way, some the other way. Mindat's search engine will happily find a word with an é in it when searching for e. Some browsers have (or used to have) trouble displaying the combining-accent version, though. So the single-character form seems preferable for entry into searchable mindat records.


Cheers, Gerhard

22nd Oct 2014 19:07 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

we should fix all these characters to the correct form as Gerard suggests. Unicode is a minefield!

22nd Oct 2014 21:10 UTCJosh Golden

Fabrièsite|||should be no accent over 1st "e"|||Fabriesite


Williams P A, Hatert F, Pasero M, Mills S J (2013) IMA Commission on new minerals, nomenclature and classification (CNMNC) Newsletter 15. New minerals and nomenclature modifications approved in 2012 and 2013. Mineralogical Magazine 77, 1-12


and


Ferraris C, Parodi G C, Pont S, Rondeau B, Lorand J P (2014) Trinepheline and fabriesite: two new mineral species from the jadeite deposit of Tawmaw (Myanmar). European Journal of Mineralogy 26, 257-265


Both of the above publications list Fabriesite without accented "e". Is the convention to use the name as it is published, or how we think it should have been published? Yes it is true that Jacques Fabriès has an accent in his name, Ferraris et al. (2014) used all manner of accented characters in their publication including in the name Jacques Fabriès, except in the name of the mineral they were describing, Fabriesite, they did not use an accent.

22nd Oct 2014 22:18 UTCPeter Haas

Jolyon & Katya Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> we should fix all these characters to the correct

> form as Gerard suggests. Unicode is a minefield!



Even better: convert them when an edit is submitted. This would provide maximum freedom in editing (it makes things a lot easier) and consistency.

27th Oct 2014 17:02 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

D'Ansite/ d'ansite:


I do not have access to the type description of the mineral so I have not been able to check if if uses the upper case A or the lower case, probably A since it's named after Jean D'Ans.


If this is the case (as the abstract in American Mineralogist points to: http://rruff.info/rruff_1.0/uploads/AM43_1219.pdf), and the the principle " The names are those which are in the type descriptions" should be followed, D’Ansite should be spelled with the upper case A, but D’ansite-(Mn) and D’ansite-(Fe) with the lower case.:-S


27th Oct 2014 17:23 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

We should always try to match the person's name and not continue to propagate errors in format if it varies between the original type description and the actual name of the person involved.


It matters not one tiny bit whether we use D'Ansite or D'ansite or whether we use diacritical marks or not as the searching on mindat.org will identify the correct mineral - they are regarded as identical.


This is just a layout issue. Just as it is with the formatting of some mineral suffixes which we don't adhere to.


As such, we should choose the layout that is most consistent with our own style, and closest to the original name of the person the mineral is named after.


It becomes more of an issue if the mineral name mis-spells the person's name. In cases such as that it would need the IMA to rename the species!


Jolyon

27th Oct 2014 17:24 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

But also:


D'Ansite should be written like that at the start of a sentence, but as d'ansite in other places. It's still not a proper noun!

27th Oct 2014 18:15 UTCDavid Parfitt

Jolyon & Katya Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We should always try to match the person's name

> and not continue to propagate errors in format if

> it varies between the original type description

> and the actual name of the person involved.

>

> It matters not one tiny bit whether we use

> D'Ansite or D'ansite or whether we use diacritical

> marks or not as the searching on mindat.org will

> identify the correct mineral - they are regarded

> as identical.

>

> This is just a layout issue. Just as it is with

> the formatting of some mineral suffixes which we

> don't adhere to.

>

> As such, we should choose the layout that is most

> consistent with our own style, and closest to the

> original name of the person the mineral is named

> after.

>

> It becomes more of an issue if the mineral name

> mis-spells the person's name. In cases such as

> that it would need the IMA to rename the species!

>

> Jolyon



Jolyon, does that apply to kutnohorite too, although it is named after a place (Kutná Hora) rather than a person? It should have been spelled "kutnáhorite", or at least "kutnahorite".


David

27th Oct 2014 19:26 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Kutnohorite was named after Kutna Hora, but kutnahorite can not be correct, because of some obscure rule of Czech grammar that says it has to be kutnohorite (case change, I think). So in this case the apparent spelling "mistake" is an artifact of Czech grammar and not an error by the mineral description authors or the IMA.

27th Oct 2014 21:39 UTCDavid Parfitt

Alfredo, you are right that the Czech adjective describing things from/of Kutná Hora is "kutnohorský" etc., but I hadn't realised that they had derived the mineral name via this route, so thanks for pointing this out. It is interesting though that we have kaňkite, whereas the corresponding adjective is "kaňkovský", kladnoite when the adjective is "kladenský", and probably a few more. I guess it's up to whoever names the mineral after a place exactly how they arrive at the name?


Best wishes


David

27th Oct 2014 22:33 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

As I said before, any changes to spelling would need the IMA to approve a change. Changes to display of diacritical marks and/or capitalization we can do on our own initiative.


Jolyon

16th Nov 2014 21:08 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert

As for the type of apostrophe: We simply used the apostrophe on our keyboard. None of us gave any consideration to it being "straight" or "curved".
 
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