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Techniques for CollectorsUltrasonics

30th Mar 2006 12:54 UTCJon Ertman

How long can you leave a mineral in Ultrasonics and do they remove coating

on minerals,thats say white coating on Smithsonite.

30th Mar 2006 13:20 UTCPete Nancarrow

No simple answer to this one Jon, - it's a case of "how long is a piece of string?"

Some pieces will survive indefinitely without any damage, others will crumble to a sludge within minutes if not seconds. It's also not just a case of which mineral, but the physical nature of the individual specimen. e.g. a piece of massive vein material could be unharmed for quite a while, but a crust of prismatic crystals of the same mineraL, delicately attached to a soft matrix, might fall to pieces almost immediately. Successful removal of coatings will depend on how robustly the coating mineral is attached to the substrate. Like so many cleaning methods, it's a case of try it with a small piece of surplus material before using it on a good specimen.

Pete N.

30th Mar 2006 16:52 UTCJesse Fisher Expert

It will also depend on the strength and efficiency of the unit. Some cheap ultrasonic units seem to do little other than make an annoying buzzing sound, while others can be strong enough to disrupt tissue and bone should you immerse your hand in the bath for too long.

As all mineral specimens are individual things, learning to clean minerals requires an adaptive approach, tailored to the type of specimen. As Pete mentions, when trying out something new, it is best to have a "test subject" that won't cause too much grief should the proceedure go wrong.

30th Mar 2006 16:57 UTCBarry Flannery Expert

Is it worth buying one?

I have been toying with the idea for a while...where would I get one?

Regards,

Barry

30th Mar 2006 17:14 UTCAlan Plante

I'll "third" the advice given by Pete and Jesse - the answer is always: "It depends..." :~}

Barry: I have found my small ultrasonic unit very handy for cleaning pieces that have sat in the case collecting dust and general grime for too long. It shines them up in jig time. But as a machine for cleaning "mine rough" it is spotty in its value: It works great on some things, but is terrible for others... As noted by the others above, it all depends on what you are trying to clean. I would also add that it also depends on what you are using for a cleaning solution. There are a lot of different surfactant agents out there that one can add to the water - and some will work well for certain things, but not for others. I have found that just a drop or two of Ivory liquid dish detergent does the job for more things than anything else - but I still keep a well-stocked cupboard, and use whatever I find works best in each situation.

I guess that like everything else in collecting (and life? :~} ) there is no "One size suits all" answer to anything. Some things will clean up under the tap, some need an ultrasonic bath, others need time in an acid...

KOR!

Alan

PS: Probably the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard of us using a concentrated acid in an ultrasonic cleaner - hot! (Talk about people being so crazy they don't even know they are crazy... :~} )

31st Mar 2006 10:56 UTCPeter Haas

I would not call that crazy - it's just mindblowingly ignorant.

4th Apr 2006 00:02 UTCOT. Ljøstad Expert

As a micromouner I would certainly not be without a ultrasonic cleaner. It works very well most of the times. The only drawback I have found is that it can damage the specimen. However, that happens so rarely that I use it on almost all my specimens.

A good advice: I have found out that if I boil the water and cool it to about 35 centigrades before I put it in the container of the ultrasonic cleaner, really makes a difference. The boiling probably removes the oxygen from the water. I never use any chemicals any more - boiled water is more effective.

4th Apr 2006 09:01 UTCMark Wrigley Expert

Barry,

I don't know about distributors where you are, but the manufacturer of good industrial units is Ultrawave in Cardiff in Cardiff UK.

http://www.ultrawave.co.uk/

A small one from there range is all you you'd need.

They are also extremely good with customer service, fixing things etc.

Best wishes

Mark

4th Apr 2006 13:34 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I noticed when I was in Canada that there were shops selling small ultrasonic "jewellery cleaning" units - that looked like they would be ideal for mineral cleaning and were very cheap (tens of dollars, not hundreds). Of course, they only have a 110V power supply so no use here without a transformer - but I figured there must be a similar low-priced product in the UK?

Jolyon

4th Apr 2006 13:53 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

This is the sort of thing I saw...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000BVGNJ/qid=1144155296/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-1659880-6150304?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=284507

4th Apr 2006 16:05 UTCJesse Fisher Expert

I picked up a similar type of unit here in the US a number of years ago. This one was marketed to denture wearers. Works well for cleaning dust and grime off specimens that have been on the display shelf for too long, but not nearly powerful enough to remove things like oxide coatings from newly collected minerals. At the price, however, one of these is certainly worth having around.

5th Apr 2006 09:55 UTCJon Ertman

I have two ultrasonics one that is very average size about small cabinets and I bought that one,works ok. Then I was able to get a large one that takes 16 by 16 cabinets minerals,this one I got because the cleaning people at my building were going to pitch it out,but it works great ,but it takes a great deal of water,and the timer set for only twenty minutes,I use to clean a lot of my Hunting Hill Quarry Minerals and other Minerals that I collect.Jon E.

4th Apr 2007 13:37 UTCBryan Davis

I figured I would revive this old thread because I have a few questions regarding techniques for ultrasonic cleaners. I know that there is no one size fits all technique, but I figured I would try to get some tips.

A) Is it better to face the part of the mineral you want clean toward the bottom of the cleaner to be in direct site of the piezoelectric drivers, or does it have the same effect if the mineral is face up? Understandably you would not want delicate crystals touching the bottom of the unit, but would it be better to put the specimen on its side or face up in that case?

B) Does it matter if I use tap water or should I use de-mineralized water (I have very hard water). So far I have been using de-mineralized, but it would be much more convenient to be able to use the tap water.

C) The directions on the unit say to fill it 1/2 to 2/3 full. Is there a benefit to putting less water in (filling it half way instead of two thirds)? Will the cleaning action work faster or better?

D) Is it worth it to leave a specimen in there for a long period of time with just water, or is there just a limit to where after an hour it will be about as clean as it can be?

Figured I would ask and see if anyone had a lot of experience with these units, rather than waste weeks with trial and error.

Thanks,

Bryan

4th Apr 2007 13:38 UTCBryan Davis

well, now I know how to make a smiley face with sunglasses.

4th Apr 2007 21:23 UTCPeter Nancarrow 🌟 Expert

Bryan, a few observations, if not a complete set of answers to your questions:

A) If you put your specimen face down in the bath, there is likely to be a risk of some damage as the piece gets vibrated against the base, but if it's the other way up, then some of the loosened dirt is more likely to get worked into the recesses rather than falling out, because despite all the agitation going on, gravity will still be having some effect. I have got round this one and cleaned specimens "face-down" in an U-sonic bath, by suspending them in a thin net (like the sort onions are often sold in).

B) (B ) I've not done any tests on whether hard water is a problem, so can't comment here.

C) If you disregard the manufacturer's instructions, there is always a risk some damage may result. For example, one effect of not filling the bath sufficiently is that it is likely to overheat.

D) An hour is avery long time to run an U-sonic bath. Most that I have used have a much shorter design duty-cycle, very largely because a lot of heat can be generated by a powerful U-sonic unit (see "C" above"); e.g. max 15 minutes on, then 15 minutes off, to allow the unit to cool down thoroughly,

Pete N.

4th Apr 2007 22:30 UTCAnonymous User

Has anyone used the type of ultrasonic cleaners the dentists use?

See http://parkell.com/

I've been told by a retired Geologist that they work well in the area of trying to clean certain crystals that are very delecate. He puts in some sort of wand with a chisel edged insert and he can spot clean just about anything??

And does anyone know the difference between the following types of Ultrasonic cleaners?

piezoelectric or Magnetostrictive

Thanks for bringing up this and thanks for any info.

Mike

5th Apr 2007 17:50 UTCBryan Davis

Thanks for the input Pete

That was a good point about the onion "net", I think I will try that tonight.

What I meant in question C, was the manufacturor reccommends filling it 1/2 to 2/3 full. My question was (though poorly worded), is there a benefit to filling the unit to the lower end of the manufaturors reccommendation ie. half way? Again not knowing the science behind it, I wonder if the concentration of cavitation bubbles would be higher if there is a smaller volumer of water.

-Bryan

17th Jun 2007 14:58 UTCRock Currier Expert

John,

Where is your smithsonite from and how thick is the white coating? Could you supply a picture? Many of the good Kelly mine smithsonite have been etched with hydrochloric acid to remove an unattractive surface and expose the glistening blue surface so cherished by collectors. Much of the newer smithsonite from Mexico has also been given the acid treatment. Smithsonite will polish up with hydrochloric acid in a way similar toe calcite.

Rock

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