Deutsche Gold

Wenn mann sich nur nach Mindat Fotos orientieren muesste, scheint Deutschland ein sehr gold-armes Land zu sein - Wir haben in Mindat nur 2 Fotos von deutsche gediegenes Gold! In meine eigene Mikrosammlung habe ich zwei Stuecke deutsche Gold, eine Flitterschen in Quartz aus die Fichtelgebirge, mit genaue Fundortangabe; kein Problem. Aber auf der zweite Stueck sitzen die Gold Flitterschen in ein erdiges weiche rote Ton-haltige Hematit-matrix, vielleicht ein verwitterte eisenreiche Schiefer, aus alte amerikanische Sammlung, und auf der Etikett steht nur "Germany". Gibt es wirklich solche Paragenese in Deutschland? Ich bin etwas skeptisch, da sehr aehnliches Material stammt auch aus der Umgebung von Quartzite und Bouse in Arizona. Danke im voraus fuer eure Kommentare!

Alfredo,

es gibt in Deutschland eine Vielzahl von historischen Goldfundstellen. Deren aktive Zeit bis ins tiefste Mittelalter zurück reicht. Sporadisch gab es damals immer mal gutes und reiches Gold, was aber meistes eingeschmolzen wurde. (des wegen gewinnt man ja auch Gold). Es gibt durchaus schöne sehr alte deutsche Goldstufen. Aber diese gelten selbst bei deutschen Sammlern als große Seltenheit. An einigen Fundstellen wird auch zur Zeit von sehr intusiastischen Personen Gold in Flüssen gewaschen. Gute Fundmöglichkeiten für Gold in Quarz oder anderer Matrix sind mir zur nicht bekannt.
Sehr gute Goldstufen gab es aus Goldkronach, Tilkerode sowie auch im Erzgebirge. Ich selber habe eine sehr gute Stufe aus Goldkronach mit um 3 mm große Gold Kristallen sehr reich in / auf Quarz.

Beste Grüsse

Gunnar

Und auf der Grenze von Deutschland in Holland im Rhein, und im Lek und Waal-Fluss wurde professionell Gold gewaschen. An die Hollaendische und an die Deutsche Seite :-)
sehe [www.strahlen.org]
Cheers! Frank

Danke Gunnar und Frank fuer eure Kommentare. Es gibt immer Hoffnung Gold zu finden, sogar in Holland; ich bin auch Optimist...

Aber ueber meine Frage ob Gold in Deutschland in eine Hematit-muttergestein vorkommt?

Immer noch neugierig,
Alfredo

Die Diskussion lauft glaube ich hier jetzt weiter :-)
[www.mineralienatlas.de]
cheers! Frank

Vielen Dank, Frank (und Uwe)

Hallo,

es gibt zumindest ein Vorkommen wo Gold in einer Eisenerzlagerstätte gefunden wurde. Es ist Schmiedefeld bei Saalfeld / Thüringen. Gebunden an einer Chamosit Fe-Oxid Matrix.

Beste Grüsse

Gunnar

Hallo,

auch von weiteren Kleinvorkommen, z.B. vom Silbereisenbergwerk Gleissingerfels im Fichtelgebirge ist ged. Gold bekannt geworden. Hämatit war dort das Eisenerz, das man abgebaut hat.

Gruß
Berthold

Vielen Dank, Gunnar und Berthold

Alfredo,
vielleicht auch Korbach-Goldhausen (Eisenberg), habe von dort schon Stücke mit erdigem Hämatit gesehen. Hast Du ein Foto?

Cheers
Roger

Plz see also [www.goldsucher.de]

I find the dialogue interesting on German Gold Specimens. By far the best specimens other than Rhein Gold nuggets come from the Erzgebirge. I have several speimens from this district (all from older collections) including excellent octo crystals (up to .8cm) on Quartz crystal matrix from Niederschlema and leaves/octo crystals on a Galena/Sphalerite matrix from Schneeberg. By far my best specimen from Germany is a supurb trig crystal aggregate (1.1cm) from Saxony (Seufzergründel bei Hinterhermsdorf) from the R.Wenk collection. Specimens of German Gold crystals are very rare. I have seen museum specimens of Gold from Germany but in almost all cases they are very small (.2cm) crystalline smears on Quartz associated with Silver-based minerals on a larger matrix.

Frank

Hello Frank,

Sorry about it but I have to tell you the following. I know you will not like it but the situation is the following. Such kind of Gold you have descript is never find in Saxony (or any other German location). Short after the secound wold war, during the time when the American Army was in Saxony, many mineral specimens was taking out from privat collection. During this time there also many Gold specimens from Romania and other world wide locations was sold to the Americans. During this time some people start to misslabel the Gold specimens with wrong location names. Names from known Gold locations in Saxony. A friend of my have also from the R. Wenk collection a "Saxony" Gold but we 100 % sure the specimen come from Verespatak / Romania, but the old label are nice. "Seufzergründel bei Hinterhermsdorf" is a placer deposit where in the last century mining for tin, during this time there find also some smal Gold grains, but never like what you decript. Gold in matrix from Freiberg, Schneeberg and other Saxony locations are most in tiny grains in Quartz veins what cut the main ore body. A Gold grain of 1 mm is all ready big. Believe in this case not some "high class dealers" believer the very exact documentation of the German mining ministery of the last 400 years, believer the German Gold collectors include severy curators of our very good mineral museums. The only "higher class" German Gold is find in Goldkronach, but it is all reday very rare to have on from this location. The Gold what you descript there are for sure not find in Germany. Sorry that I have to tell you this, but the location is change 50 years ago by some body, what know of this way he can make more profit.

if you want you can also contact me directly

Best Regards

Gunnar Färber

Gunnar:

Thanks for your information. I value your knowledge and opinion. But the specimen from Niederschlema is not from a US Collection it comes from one of the most respected collections in Europe and vetted by comparison to matrix mineral content to Romanian, Czech Rep, Slovak Rep and German specimens by a museum Lab in the Slovak Rep. It was found not to be from Romania due to the mineral content and asssociations in the matrix. The make-up of the matrix content is consistant with and matches perfectly to that found at Niederschlema. The specimen dates from the early 1800's and was labled as being the only specimen preservewd from the find. I purchased the specimen from Josef Vajeck who, if you know him, is a locality and minerology fanatic that spared no expense on specimen research and Lab examinations for validation and authentication. It is a rare validated specimen and one of the the best in the world for a German Gold. The "Seufzergründel bei Hinterhermsdorf" Gold is another matter. Two labels came with the specimen. The oldest is in "high' German script from the 19th century. It is a water warn nugget of stacked crystals similar to those I have collected from numerous other Placers in the US, Australia and Russia but not Romania. If it is Romanian, it is unique. The color of the Gold is pale indicating high Silver Content and may even be "Electrum." That in itself would be rare for Romania. Your doubts may exist but I have over 30 unique Romanian crystal Gold specimens from all over the county and the stacked crystal form does not match any of those specimens or any I can find in the liturature. I will keep hunting to remove your doubts.

Frank

With few exceptions, Romanian golds look generally slightly pale or even "grayish", due to their usually high silver content, so far.
During 40 years of collecting European minerals, I have never seen anything similar to these specimens described, neither in a museum nor in a private collection. Which of course doesn't mean that there does not exist such a critter somewhere out there in the mineral universe, although the probability does not look to be very high.
Would strongly support Gunnar. 50 to 60 years before WWII and American occupation, some greedy Swiss "strahlers" already used to fake rare alpine gold specimens, glueing Romanian gold cristals on quartzes and pushing leaf gold into veins of local matrix with the help of wood sticks! The corresponding labels look very nice in some cases and are worth a lot of money on their own these days, certainly with some of these notorious "elite high class dealers", where in many cases the label is worth more than the lump of rock it comes with. of course not a really bad idea to get rid of crap, sellingt it as an antique...looks as they still find enough "investors".....

Hello Frank,

It give some very important point to say it makes no sense that such Gold specimens are find in Saxony. Lat use make a jump 200 years back in time. To the beginning of 1800, the situation was the following.

1.In the Kingdome of Saxony give it several laws about mining, minerals and mineral collecting. The mining department make it clear any interest or important find of any minerals in the active mining operations, the information have to be send to the department. For any interest finds for any reason, the King and the department pay the miners a big amount of money. This was the point why the collections in Dresden and Freiberg can grow so big. To this time is was for a miner the best what can be happen, from time to time to find nice specimens. In case of a find of Gold in such quality, you can believe the King of Saxony will pay 10 times more money for the specimen, like the miner / or company make profit in year. Such Gold was unknown from Saxony. The miners or the mining company what find such specimens will be rich after this. It makes absolute no sense that some on find it and hold it secret. And for sure such find will be reported by the mining department. The reported finds of Gold there are base on few grains in the placers.

2.The next question is when to begin of 1800, such specimens are find, where it was during the 150 years before turn up after the second world war. And for sure there was no mystery unit, what save it all the time.

3.Since the middle of 18.century the German start to work in “Siebenbürgen� Transylvania / Romania. Gold specimens to this time there was so much available, that no one was more interest in it. It is not reported that in this time Romanian Gold is use a fake for German Gold.

4.The matrix is the next problematic point. For sure it give some typical rock matrix for a deposit. But the Gold deposits in Romania and the ore deposits in Saxony are so complex develop, It will be easy to find similar matrixes. Both are hydrothermal vein systems, with the typical minerals.

5.Writing of labels: The old German type of writing it call “Sitterlin� is use by old peoples some times up to now. It means my parents have to learn it in the school (parallel to Latin writing). To find some body after 1945 to writ in “Sitterlin� was very easy.

It makes much more sense to believe that the location is a fake, that under the conditions I explain to you, such Gold specimens of a mystery way are find, saved and come back 150 years later to the market. It is unimportant which dealer sell it now and also what reputation he have. The faking is start 50 years ago, to a time when no one of use was present in this mineral market. It is also not important which way the specimen go, first in some important European collections (outside of Germany) and later to USA or directly.
I know it is not nice to believe for you, but such Gold come from Saxony.

Best Regards
Gunnar

Alfredo,

you possibly got the earthy iron oxide like matrix from, (ca 2 cm piece?), in which case it is from the Eisenberg, Korbach, North Hesse, Hesse, Germany.

Frank

Nun der Beitrag ist zwar schon ein paar Tage alt, aber ich denke das ich noch etwas dazu schreiben kann. Der Eisenberg ist sozusagen mein Hausberg.
Das Gold vom Eisenberg befindet sich in so genannten „Ruschelzonen“ ,also speziellen Anreicherungen/Schichten im Tonschiefer. Lager 3 und 4 sind da die ergiebigsten. Dieses Stück stammt dann mit sehr hoher Sicherheit aus der Grube "Georg" die sich direkt im Ort Goldhausen befindet in ihr sind das Lager 3 aufgeschlossen.
Was die Lagerstätte an sich betrifft ist sie durch aus mit der in Arizona vergleichbar! Da die Forschungsarbeiten, seiner Zeit durchgeführt von Dr. Kulik vom Hessischen Landesamt, sich fast nur auf die alten Grubenbaue beschränkten, ist bis heute noch nicht klar ,ob diese Lagerstätte eine noch größere Ausdehnung hat. Ein Bohrprogramm aus den 60ern durchgeführt von der Cominco verlief ziemlich mysteriös.

Glück auf
Ingo

Hello,

Some gold octahedrons have been reported from Sulzburg, Southern Black Forest, Germany, where Gold has been found either as small aggregates in an greyish conglomerate or as flakes and even xls in the creek bed. I have washed 5 or 6 flakes a day last year, besides beautiful zircons and monazites. Another locality where sharp gold xls have been found in the one or two times (only very few specimens in micromount size known) in the 1970ies was Clara Mine near Oberwolfach, Black Forest.

Gold on Hematite? Most likely Korbach or Thuringia.

In Saxonxy Gold has been mined in the bed of the Göltzsch river (Göltzsch is an old slawian expression for "gold creek" near Plauen. But I have never seen any sharp crystals from there (as it has been transported some distance).

Regards,
Sebastian Möller

Hallo,
auch im Revier von Tilkerode im Ostharz kam gediegenes Gold mit Matrix vor. Meist war das eine Mischung aus Clausthalit und Ankerit, aber auch Hämatit (das den Ankerit oft intensiv färbte - "Rotspat" und Gold mit dem Nebengestein (ein grünliches Gestein) kam vor. Die Gold-Aggregate waren bis zu ca. 5 mm gross und manchmal auch optisch recht attraktiv. Aus dem Gold wurden im Jahr 1825 Ausbeute-Dukaten geprägt (Herzogtum Anhalt).
Nachzulesen und abgebildet in:
Dieter Klaus: Die Hämatitlagerstätte Tilkerode/Harz und ihre Selenidparagenese.- Emser Hefte Jg. 10/Nr. 3 - Sept. 1989
Weitere Fundstellen für Gold auf Matrix in Deutschland waren nur noch der Goldberg bei Eisenbach in Nordhessen und Goldkronach (und -solange noch zu Deutschland gehörig- die Grube Eule in Schlesien/Böhmen).
An allen anderen Fundorten (Erzgebirge, St. Andreasberg, Siegerland, Schwarzwald) waren höchstens mal mm-grosse Flitterchen von Gold od. Elektrum in Gestein eingeschlossen.
Die von Fr. Dzubek angeführten Gold-Stufen stammen nicht aus Deutschland!
Als Information empfehle ich: Hintze: Handbuch der Mineralogie - Band Elemente u. Sulfide. Das umfangreiche (verlässliche) Werk beschreibt sämtliche Goldfunde in Deutschland - solche wie die von Fr. Dzubek beschrieben- gibt es dort nicht, und sie kamen auch nicht vor.
Das Werk von Hintze (jede Universitätsbibliothek und Mineralogisches Institut hat es; viele Bände) ist unverzichtbar für die Zuordnung unklarer Funde, da die Mineralien meist gut beschrieben werden und auch seltene Vorkommen genannt werden. Ich benutze das Werk fast täglich, da ich ein Exemplar besitze.
E. Riech