Gemology School?

From a website that is run by the "International School of Gemology"


"Fluorescence is made visible by using ultraviolet light that is of high wave lengths and barely visible to the human eye. The colors are caused when a gem material takes these ultraviolet light waves and slows them down sufficiently to be visible to the human eye. Just like the black lights that used to be hanging in the bars in the 1960's, where you could walk in with a particular shirt on and the colors would stand out. The black light was actually very bright and the material interacted with it to slow the light beams down enough to become very visible."
www dot yourgemologist dot com/fluorescence dot html

Yeeee HAH!

Dreadful; this guy is an FGA, and supposedly is accredited to teach by The Gemmological Association of Great Britain. In addition to the amatuerish errors about fluorescence quoted by Ollie above, the first two mineral descriptions I viewed briefly at that site showed incorrect formulae! The formula of turquoise is given as CuAlH20, and beryl (for emerald) as BeAlSio2 (sic).

I am also a Fellow of the Gemmological Association, and know several of the officers of the Asociation personally. I will bring this site and it's errors to their attention.

Pete N.

Based on an ISG student observation of this thread, I wanted to respond to the profoundly incorrect and unfair comments made here by Mr. Nancarrow. Particularly since the good name of the International School of Gemology has been libeled here without Mr. Nancarrow having the least bit of actual knowledge of the school or our course program. I find it highly unprofessional that you should brand as -dreadful- a program that you have never seen.

YourGemologist is a separate website to the International School of Gemology. YourGemologist is a combined effort of a lot of people to serve as a free study website where beginners and novice amateurs can get some practical explanations regarding the study of gemstones. It is a portal. A beginning. And has served as such to almost 500,000 guests for over 7 years.

We provide easy to understand practical explanations for beginners. That is why we continue to grow. Our explanation of fluorescence is indeed correct, and has served as an excellent beginning into the understanding of UV reactions for thousands of people who used the basic understanding we provide, to move on to a higher level of learning with the ISG and other schools. That you do not agree with it, Mr. Nancarrow, does not mean it is wrong. It just means that you do not agree with it.

And it is not required that we provide the full scientific equation to every gemstone. Newbies to the study simply need to know the basics first, and can move on to as much of the information as they desire once they get the foundation laid down.

I guess what is most disturbing is that Mr. Nancarrow should make such derogatory remarks about something that you know nothing about. If you would care to take some time and investigate before you speak, you would find that we have many GIA Graduate Gemologists, Canadian FGA and Gem-A students who study with us because our ISG course notes offer a dimension into the study of gemology that is both more complete, and easier to understand, than their other courses. And many have given the ISG credit for having passed their other exams With Distinction.

The ISG has over 1400 students in 53 countries around the world, and many of our graduates are working in top jewelry stores or own their own jewelry store and/or appraisal service.

We are the only gemology school in the world that offers jewelry appraisal training that is developed, written and administered by licensed insurance adjusters and underwriters who are on-staff with the ISG. And who have years of experience in the insuring and adjusting of jewelry claims. And the ISG is the only gemology school in the world certified to write and teach jewelry related courses by the various US State Departments of Insurance.

It is an insult to the ISG student body that this thread should have been allowed to even start. But since we try to teach our students the full realm of what goes on in the gemology industry, perhaps this thread will stand as a testament that sometimes people disrespect others in the industry out of pure ignorance.

To that end, Mr. Nancarrow’s comments are certainly a case on point.

Robert James FGA, GG
International School of Gemology

As a followup to this thread.....

Mr. Nancarrow we would like to invite you to spend an hour with the ISG Student Body during one of our Tuesday night ISG Student Chat Rooms. Here we have students from many parts of the world meet each week for a real time, online chat room to discuss various topics of jewelry, gemstones and appraisals.

The time is 8pm Central Time and we meet for about 1 hour.

There is a lot of learning and sharing with students from many parts of the industry, with a lot of industry leaders dropping by from time to time.

We invite you to drop in and spend some time with us to truly learn what the ISG is all about.

I believe it will be of mutual benefit, and hope that you will give us the courtesy of actually visiting with us before making any further comments about what the ISG students are accomplishing.

We look forward to having you join us.

Robert

Mr. James....."The colors are caused when a gem material takes these ultraviolet light waves and slows them down sufficiently to be visible to the human eye." This statement is not merely an oversimplification of the phenomenon of fluorescence, but is incorrect and misleading!! How is this statement less simple: "fluorescence is the visible light produced by a mineral when a higher energy radiation (in this case, ultraviolet) excites some atoms and produces photons in the visible spectrum". It's by no means a complete or exact explanation, but it's not misleading and not insulting to those who know better. The ISG and ANY affiliated organizations bear the responsibility of NOT being misleading....your credentials notwithstanding...and I promise you there are FAR many more that 1400 students of mineralogy in FAR more than 53 countries....some of whome are probably laughing after having read the above.

Robert,

"Our explanation of fluorescence is indeed correct"

Unfortunately it is not.

The site says "the colors are caused when a gem material takes these ultraviolet light waves and slows them down sufficiently to be visible to the human eye."

Ultraviolet light is not "slowed down". Technically, the light is travelling (fractionally) slower while it is inside the crystal, but that is the same whether it is a fluorescent material or not. Some of this light is absorbed by the fluorescent material and new light, of a different wavelength, is emitted. Once it leaves the crystal the new light is travelling at the same speed - the speed of light in air - it's not faster nor slower than the original ultraviolet light.

I understand that you do not need to have a full understanding of the laws of physics to be able to appreciate gemology, but to have an incorrect definition of how fluorescence works is worse than having none.

"And it is not required that we provide the full scientific equation to every gemstone."

Of course, it's not required. So why put something that is wrong? "BeAlSio2" means nothing (even if you'd typed the O in upper case as you should). If you wanted to simplify things in a way that was actually useful, then you should have put "Beryllium Aluminium Silicate". That's accurate and simple.

I'm afraid that Peter's conclusions regarding your site are pretty spot on. You need to seriously look at upgrading your online materials.

Jolyon



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2007 11:58PM by Jolyon Ralph.

I am afraid that you are trying to apply your own explanations as if they are the only one's allowed. Which may be on this site, but certainly not in the overall industry.

When ultraviolet light enters a stone it is traveling at an energy level that is too high for our eyes to see. The wavelength of UV light is higher than the visible spectrum. The gemstone changes that energy to a light wave with longer energy waves. And transmits it out as light within the visible spectrum. Our explanation for newbies on YourGemologist is exactly on point and correct.

And that we list the beryllium aluminum silicate of beryl as BeAlSiO2 is our own perogative. The full chemical breakdown of gemstones is without use in gemology for practical applications. It is tedious. Students do not want to have to learn to that level of minutia. Knowing that beryl is a beryllium aluminum silicate is the required level of information to perform gemological tests. So our listing of beryl as such is as complete as is required to fulfill the requirements of the purpose.

As a result our explanation is correct as it stands. And that we do not provide some high level physics explanation to appease Peter is without standing with us.

And again, Peter has never seen inside the ISG. So neither he, nor you Jolyon, have any standing to be making any comments about the ISG on this or any forums board.

If this is such a strict scientific place of learning I would think that an actual look at the ISG courses would be required before you could pronounce anyone's opinion as -spot on-.

Your pronouncements of the ISG without ever having seen the courses is highly unprofessional. And I would think that this point would be of more concern to people than anything else.

Maybe its your board, and everyone does what you say. I would have to ask how you can issue such comments on something you have never seen?

Robert



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2007 01:30AM by Robert James.

Ultraviolet light energy is absorbed by the electrons in the outer shell of atoms/ions, which increases the energy of the particles/waves and causes them to move outwards into the next higher orbit. But the energization isn't sufficient for the electrons to remain stable in this outer orbit, so they end up giving off energy in the form of visible light and drop back to their original orbit.

That IS the simplified but accurate explanation for fluorescence. What you have posted on your website is NOT. It is grossly misleading - inaccurate.


That's not a matter of "opinion" - it's a matter of FACT. Arguing otherwise won't change the fact of the matter.

As an educator you have a duty to provide ACCURATE information to your students - not grossly inaccurate "simplifications." This is from someone who has been a scientific educator for over 35 years.

Alan R. Plante

Also, if you are going to provide your students with the chemical compositions of materials, provide them with the correct ones. Bastardized compositions are another disservice to your students - they deserve accurate information.

Alan

Mr James,

in attempting to defend the indefensible - the blatant inaccuracies of the ISG site - you diminish both your own integrity and that of the International School of Gemology - which only strengthens the general suspicion that many 'gemologists' have little idea of what they are talking about.

Evan Chugg

I came here to answer what I thought was a very unfair and unsubstantiated post about YourGemologist that someone choose to bleed over to the ISG. I had hoped to find other professionals who would agree that no one should make these kinds of allegations without ever having actually been on the ISG website. Discuss YourGemologist all you want. I will discuss it with you. But since no one here has ever been on the ISG website and studied with us, how can you act as if you know what is there? How can you even make comment on something you have never seen?

The ISG website is greatly expanded in DVD Video Lecture demonstrations and PDF study files regarding all aspects of gemology. We do indeed have GIA Graduate Gemologists and FGA students study with us because of the quality of our program. And we have helped many students pass their FGA and GG exams. And not one of our students has encountered any problems regarding the understanding of fluorescence. Did any of the previous posters bother to answer that? No. Not one of you bothered to deal with that point.

And let me again make this very clear, All of the above comments about the ISG have come from people who have never actually been on the ISG website.

Not one.

But after further review, that page on fluorescence was taken down from our directory almost a year ago. So the page itself was not even linked to the YourGemologist.com website, it was just hanging on the net. So the person who started this thread was not even in the actual YourGemologist.com website as we took out that entire section from our directory links a year ago. So this entire thread is not only a hijack, but was done with malicious intent to start with.

But for the people here to post what has been said about the ISG without ONE of you ever having been there......

This was just an attempt to attack a good organization with a lot of excellent students, that is making quality study of gemology affordable to more people, thereby helping to grow the industry.

We do good work. We do good work at a good price. And we help a lot of people realize their dream of getting into the gemstone business. We provide scholarships to disabled people and those who are financially unable to study gemology. And our list of successful students is impressive if one of the above posters would have bothered to ask around before posting up such hurtful and unfounded allegations.

That someone felt they found an error on YourGemologist, and therefore the entire International School of Gemology is "dreadful".........

Don't talk about the International School of Gemology again until you have studied with us. At least have the integrity to do that.

Robert



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2007 05:27AM by Robert James.

The chemical composition should be written correctly. If your students go on to study mineralogy, the formulae taught by you, unless correct, would be useless and would need to be relearned.

From Wikipedia

Gemstones are described by gemologists using technical specifications. First, what is it made of, or its chemical composition.

Bill G



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2007 03:41PM by Bill Gordon.

Robert James wrote:
"Discuss YourGemologist all you want. I will discuss it with you."
And
"Don't talk about the International School of Gemology again until you have studied with us. At least have the integrity to do that."

ROTFL. If these kind of posts continue, we should create a "craig award".

Well then, let's study the "actual" YourGemologist site, hoping that you'll have the integrity not to edit it on the fly so we can all have a good laugh.
We could call it "the pearl hunt" :-).

It took me less than a minute to stumble on the following:
There is a section called "The Study of Minerals". In there, I found:
Calcite: Crystal System: Hexagonal.
Vanadinite: Crystal System: Trigonal.
(www.yourgemologist.com/calcite.html)
(www.yourgemologist.com/vanadinite.html)

Anyone else found other "pearls" ?

kind regards,
Dominik

Hehehe Dominik, sounds like an appropriate award for this situation


Now for a pearl...

"Magnetite ... is natures own natural magnet." followed by a picture of (magnatized) iron filings, although he claims its the magnetite specimens who are holding them. "being held by the magnetic pull of the larger piece"
(http://www.yourgemologist.com/magnetite.html)

When we say magnetite is magnetic its because its attracted to a magnet... :-|


Phil.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2007 01:28PM by Phil B..

<<Flint is found as nodules in limestone formations formed from ancient sea beds. Flint is the result of ancient sea sponges being caught in the fossil bearing sea floor of ancient sea beds. While the surrounding sea floor is full of carbonaceous shell fossils, flint's high silicon content (due to the silicon content of the sea sponge) forms nodules where the sea sponge body was pressed into the flint that we find in these nodule formation today.>>

To quote the genie in "Aladdin", "NNT! WRONG!"

I may not be able to argue the composition or crystalline structure of some of these other materials without looking them up, but this is hands-down WRONG. This statement (in addition to being so grammatically incorrect as to cause physical pain to the reader) is written at a level that would have insulted my daughter when she was in first grade.

This statement makes flint appear to be a sort of fossil sponge, which is wholly incorrect. Flints or cherts form largely as the result of the presence of radiolaria or diatoms, which feature silicious skeletons. These are not sponges. Taxonomically, they are not even close. It seems to me (please collect me if I'm wrong) that silicates only come out of solution in cold water, not a preferred environment for sponges.

Simply using the term "flint" is a gross oversimplification. Flint is a member of a huge group of cryptocrystalline silicates which includes chert, opal, chalcedony, jasper (I could go on and on.) It is mostly closley related to chert; the division, though under debate, is often made by color,flint being dark and chert being light.

You could get more--and more accurate--information out of the DK Eyewitness series for children.

There you go, Phil!
Sophia

Robert.

I find your responses here somewhat sad and disturbing. Anyone can have errors on their website - there are plenty of errors on this one. The difference is how you handle it when the errors are pointed out to you. For future reference the correct way is to thank the people who pointed the errors out and go about making changes - not to attack the messagebearer.

I understand you have a reputation to protect, and admitting to mistakes is harder than blindly defending them. But please, this is not an "Industry" with "different opinions". This is science. There are different ways to explain the same thing, but they are only valid if the basic science behind what you say is correct.

You're already starting to backpeddle a little bit. Let me quote:

"When ultraviolet light enters a stone it is traveling at an energy level that is too high for our eyes to see. The wavelength of UV light is higher than the visible spectrum. The gemstone changes that energy to a light wave with longer energy waves. And transmits it out as light within the visible spectrum. Our explanation for newbies on YourGemologist is exactly on point and correct."

But your definition on the website says:

"The colors are caused when a gem material takes these ultraviolet light waves and slows them down sufficiently to be visible to the human eye."

Now, anyone with even the most basic of high-school physics knows that speed and wavelength are two totally different and unrelated properties. There is no harm in simplifying complex things for a non-technical audience, but when you simplify it too far that you're actually changing the meaning then you have gone too far.
The definition you used in your reply on this board whilst still not entirely accurate is far closer to reality. Why not use that?

Other mistakes such as the Trigonal Vanadinite are presumably just simple slip-ups in data entry - these things happen and can easily be fixed - but I hope you appreciate the importance of fixing them when they are pointed out.

And as for Sophia's comment about sponges, I'm certainly no expert about fossil sponges and flint formation (which for many years has been a big mystery), but it is certainly very common to find fossil sponge relics within flint nodules, and even if the sponge is not the original source of all of the silica that forms the flint nodule, there may well be a connection. I'll need to read up more about this, but I don't think that Robert's comments about this are too far from the truth.

Jolyon

Actually the wavelength of UV light is shorter than visible light (it does have a higher energy and frequency though). The infrared wavelenghts are longer than visible light.

[www.uvminerals.org]

You're right David, don't know why I missed that!

I sometimes find myself wondering if the people who come here to argue some point realize that this website is frequented by professionals and advanced amateurs? - That they are arguing with people who actually know what they are talking about. It's like the kid with a broken calculator trying to convince a mathematician that 2 + 2 = 7.956, 'cause he says so!

You have to wonder if Mr. James "gets" what Evan means when he says you can't defend the indefensible? He doesn't seem to know enough about the subject to understand how indefensible his position is...


Alan

Let me clarify this situation once more for you all. YourGemologist is a free study website developed starting 7 years ago. It is a portal into the study of gemstones for a lot of newbies. As with any website, there will be places where others may or may not agree with the information. But there is a professional method of submitting recommendations for suggesting corrections or updates.

What has been done here is anything put professional. This is a hatchet job with all of you circling like sharks in the water looking for any tid bit of carrion to snatch up for yourselves. It is an unprofessional thread being extended by people who claim to be professionals.

True professionals would have submitted a private email to me to provide your assistance in upgrading and updating information you felt needed your professional expertise. Not this free for all feeding frenzy that you have done here.

Since you all seem bent on cutting and pasting, why not be fair and post some of the positives?

No, that would not be fun for your group would it? More entertaining to have a group crucifixion. And you have to be sure to libel the ISG as part of your effort.

So allow me to post up some responses from actual ISG students. If anyone here is interested in fairness and balance in a discussion, perhaps you will read these. I have the original copies of these transmissions and can prove in court that they are true and correct in case anyone would care to actually learn about the ISG.
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Hi Rober!,
I believe I that I have not thanked you for having this course. It was the best thing I have ever done. And the course material is great just like the instructor.
Now I know about gemology and the goldsmiths are hire me for identifications of gemstones.
Today I was out at five new companies for introducing what I do; all of them want my services. This is great THANK YOU ROBERT!!
Best Regards Mattias, Sweden
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Dear ISG,
I am using the International School of Gemology's materials for my GIA Gem ID course as they are superior teaching materials. The GIA is best for diamonds, but suffers from a learning point of view. I have several graduate degrees, so I experienced a variety of learning situations and I am very happy with the International School of Gemology. I am reading the materials studiously before I begin to take the tests.
Susan P. (ISG and GIA Student)
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Dear ISG,
Having studied at both the GIA and ISG, I can tell you that the ISG is easier to understand, goes much deeper into the concepts, and has prepared me for the industry far better than the GIA. A superior program all the way around.
Thank you,
John L, ISG Student
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…..As a former GIA student, I truly feel that your program offers the best hands on, practical, day to day knowledge that is available including GIA. Good luck in the new office and continued success!

Sincerely,

Bill W, Pres. ********** Jewelers Association
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Dear ISG,
I wanted to thank you for the opportunities you have opened up for me in the world of gemology. In spite of my disability I am now able to operate my own gemstone business from my home and can finally make a living on my own.
Julie. T. ISG Student
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Now, if you all are the professionals you claim, let’s have a discussion about these cut and pastes.

What is amazing is that we have referred our ISG students here to this website in the past to learn more about mineralogy from the experts here.

And the ISG pays for Google advertising to participate on this site, which helps to add revenue to this Mindat website.

And in return for our efforts to support you, we get this thread.

I am personally disappointed in Mindat. I honestly expected more from you.

Robert