Mining in the US (Was Re: Arkansas Diamond FRAUD! Big Time!)

People do not realize the US has some of the richest gem and mineral deposits in the world. If the restrictions on mining were eased you would see tons of American mineral specimens and gem materials on the world market. But unfortunately mining is frowned upon in the US because of the "war against mining" founded and waged by the environmental movement. This in turn encourages people to commit fraudulent activities with mineral deposits such as we see here in Arkansas. My hope is the US will wake up from this regulatory nightmare and engage the many profitable mineral deposits with numerous small scale, mechanized mining operations and effectively eliminate the anti-everything mentality that curses our society.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2008 11:51PM by Jolyon Ralph.

It's not primarily the "environmental movement" to blame. There are two major factors.

1) The NIMBYS (ie, Not In My Back Yard!) - People don't mind mining until it's close to where they live, in which case they'll kick up an almighty fuss, whoever they are.

2) Health and Safety legislation. In years gone by the occasional death when someone fell down a shaft or got squashed by a machine was regarded as one of those things that happened. It took a long time for legislation to come into effect that forced employers to take health and safety seriously. You might think that in many cases we are going "over the top" in safety, but I'd prefer this to recklessness any day.

Neither of these things are the fault of the "environmental movement". They are a factor of living in a modern democratic society. Go out to China, you can dig a hole in the side of a hill with very little bureaucracy in your way, find good stuff, leave the whole area in a huge mess afterwards and not have to worry too much about the safety aspects while you're there. If you're really lucky you won't contribute to their attrotious record for mining accidents at the same time.

Jolyon

Oh yes, China has zero environmental concerns I wonder for how many centuries , white men's looting in Africa and what conditions have they left in Africa

Ok. Nationalistic nonsense isn't suitable on here.

Please also obey the rules for using your full real name when posting.

Thanks.

Jolyon

I'm not sure why the other messages didn't follow this one when the thread was split. Sorry.

EMC.

You seem to think mineral collectors hate miners, because they feel all lands should be able to be prospected for free.

This is complete and utter rubbish.

Mining companies have VERY FEW FRIENDS, and mineral collectors are amongst the strongest supporters of mining. Without mining operations past and present, 90% of the specimens in our collections would not be available to us. Many mining companies understand the value of good public relations and foster close relationships with local mineral collecting groups, allowing responsible and supervised collecting where possible.

There may be a tiny minority of collectors who do not feel like this. These tend to be the loners, who don't go with clubs, who don't buy minerals, who feel it is their god-given right to forage the land for minerals in exactly the same way that their ancestors didn't. Please do not mistake the actions of a few people who are OUTSIDE of our community for the responsible action that all collectors I know have been brought up to understand.

There is of course the issue (more so in the US than here in the UK I believe) where sites that have been open for collecting for many years are suddenly closed by a commercial company who wishes to exploit the resource for financial gain. People are naturally going to be upset and disappointed that sites that were open and available are no more, but in general this is the cycle of things - companies move in, close the area, dig things out, go bust, collectors are eventually are allowed to come back in and take advantage of the greater dug out area. Sites become worked out over time, new sites are found. As Justin said, there are enough sites for everyone to collect at, whether it is for commercial exploitation or for amateur collectors.

So EMC, enough of the anger, and try to consider that yes, mineral collectors DO support mining. But there has to be a balance. You talk about the Arkansas deposit as a success or failure in terms of carats mined. Well, that's nonsense. It's a success in terms of the number of people, young and old, who have an enjoyable day out whether they find anything or not. Thats why it was opened as a state park, and that's why it should stay that way. Not everything comes down to just dollars.

Jolyon

Jolyon,

I didn't say that at all. I know many mineral collectors that are pro mining. I was just pointing out miners don't need the added restrictions when the only point is to stop legitimate operations.

Also there are a lot of people digging and selling minerals and gems that are anti-mining maybe along your reasoning, maybe for an ulterior objective. But once again I will say that I support any mineral production large or small. I also agree there needs to be a balance. But when you do this for a living it is mostly about money. Although I love being part of the process.

How do you or Justin pay the bills? I know Justin sells minerals, at least part time. I just don't think you can call collecting valuable gems and minerals a hobby when there is so much profit involved reguardless of weather you sell them or not. Because in holding them you still retain the value. Is this not true? Why not call it what it is? PROSPECTING (Prospecting is the act of physically searching for minerals, fossils, precious metals or mineral specimens) AND/OR MINING (The process or business of extracting ore or minerals from the ground)

I was never angry, I'm as happy as a clam. You guys are great!

;-P

Erik

I don't know about most collectors, but if I factor in my costs for fuel etc on my occasional collecting trips vs value of specimens I collect then pretty much every trip i make is at a loss ant that is even before discounting lost earning potential while I am away. I collect because it's fun, that's all!

I agree Jolyon. That is why I collect. I certainly loose money whenever I buy a mineral because they are worth nothing unless I sell them and that is something I am not prepared to do because I enjoy them so much.

I as well agree with Jolyon.

I drive for a day or more, or fly across the country, to a remote locale, bang up my recently shiny, now with natures pin-stripes, tacoma, just to find something I like to look at. Considering gas, degradation of the truck, lost time where I could be earning money and food, I am way in the hole. Only once in a very blue moon do I make a "valuable find", usually I am happy with one pretty specimen. I then typically give away most of the rest of the pretty rocks I gather and call it a hobby to keep me happy.

I have never sold a specimen. I collect to collect! Life is only about money when you allow it to be. Mostly I believe life is about being alive and interacting with the environment and its inhabitants.

Cheers.
Ian

My opinion is not much different from Jolyon's. But I don't think you guys are digging up megga$ blue caps. Also I started my business with almost nothing. No silver spoon. I have also enjoyed collecting less valuable minerals, barite, selenite, even feldspar and quartz. I think you can make the best of both worlds.

I am happy to report that my physical and mental energies directed towards mineral deposit development are considered surface and mineral estate land improvements. Providing means for physical exposure, and the collection mineralogical data, both have an inherent monetary value because they require the expenditure of technical savvy, education, time and expertise to perform or construct.

Nobody in the real world considers the value of roadways, drainage fixtures, erosion control design elements, and mineralization exposure via boreholes, cuts, trenches, pits, adits and tunnels to be a monetary loss. If you think these types of improvements are worthless, than you should have some similar construction performed in your back yard... and then try not paying for it! I think this is an unrealistic expectation.

I suppose if you need some kind of tax relief or reportable loss, primarily because your income bracket is too high due to personal financial success; whether it is the result of hard work or a windfall inheritance - then I imagine someone would look at everything they enjoy doing outside of "work" as a total loss. Perhaps if you are spending public funds for research at a University, or managing a State park, profit motive is the last thing you wish to portray.

Ambitions and motivations may differ amongst collectors and scientists, but any gauge of success is based on the preferred outcome. We should all remember that investments of time and money are equally important, and different people have different reasons for doing things.

Be it a little fresh air or financial freedom you seek, or maybe the discovery of new mineral species, or perhaps proving some geologic formation theory - the outcome of success or failure is based on the perspective of the persons involved in the quest. Necessity is the mother of invention!

If the mining company hadn't come in and removed the dumps at the Centennial Eureka, Mammoth, and a number of other mines in the Tintic District of Utah, there wouldn't have been access to all of the screened boulders of rare and nice minerals to collect. The Miekle Mine barites wouldn't have been available, and this is just two of the examples of miners and collectors both being happy. The idea of increased costs has always been with us. Richard and Helen Rice of Hillsboro Oregon agonized for an hour about spending $35 on their first aquisition for their display collection. I do agree about the loss of our mining industry. If anyone thinks it is the old Butte, Montana scene, with big holes and the spread of arsenic and so forth, they should take the tour to the Bingham Pit and compare it to the Mountain State power plant near Delta, Utah, or they could drive along I-80 in Nevada and try to pick out the huge open pit mines that are within site of the highway. Remember, if you can't grow it or cut it, then it was mined!

Let us not LOSE sight of the ORIGINAL reason this thread was started.

The suggestion was that if the Crater of Diamonds was mined commercially, we would not have any reason for diamond fraud (ala eric blake) from this location ever again. But we can't mine it commercially for the lone reason, those damn enviromentalists.

That was the whole reason this thread started. It was not because of any other location, district or mine. It was, "if the crater of diamonds was mined commercially, which it can not because of those damn enviromentalists, then we would have no more diamond fraud."

So, again, for those coming late to the party. Crater of Diamonds has been mined professionaly several times during its existance. It has also been a tourist attraction for far longer than it has been run as a commerical operation. It was abandoned during the great depression, but also before then, because it was not as profitable as the diamond mines of africa. It was tested in 91-96, but the results were pitiful at best.

Now, if you felt SO damn inclined to dig up the whole area, I'm sure you would finally get all the diamonds that are there out. But at what cost? Well, for the hundreds of thousands of people who have taken a scenic drive down to the middle of nowhere Arkansas (I'm sure people in Murfreesboro would cringe when I say that, some would also agree), is it better for a couple of families to get rich from this, then run it out and leave a big hole, ala kimberly, or is it better to run it as a state attraction, one so unique to the WORLD that people from countries all over the world come to freakin MURFREESBORO ARKANSAS on vacation? Well, since the mining companies lost a few million dollars on the last diggings in the early 90's, it is no suprise that *I* as well as many many more people feel that it should remain a public location.

So, take your examples of mining projects all over the US and post them in another thread. I also agree that mining should be done again in the US. Then again, let's also expect lots more 24 hour news coverage when the miners die left and right like back in the old days. I'm sure that for anyone who enjoys visiting old mining districts, the graveyards should remind us that mining was a tough job that showed no mercy and people died constantly in the mine. I'm not against this at all, but now since america is made up of a bunch of pansies that think everyone is a special snowflake, expect there to be public outcry if mining went back in full swing like back in the day. And, to boot, what exactly IS the status of mining back in the day? Surely the late 1800's were a heyday of mining, right? But what about the silver crash of 1896? Lots of mines closed down back then. And, most of the money was made from the lawyers of the time, not neccessarily the miners or the mine owners!

This was just the wrong statement in the WRONG thread. I don't even know why this is in the fakes and forgeries section. This is like me coming into a thread about making apple pies and saying "the problem with apples now is that they come from other countries. We should go back to the old days of apple growing in america. If only we could destroy the suburbs that replaced the old farm land and convince those poor teenage girls from across america to work harvesting apples, like back in the old days, we would be on top of the apple pie game again!" Oh, can't you just smell them cooling in the window ledge right now?

The repeal of the Sherman Silver Purchase Act was in 1893.

In 2007, the United States ranked third in world gold production. This is called being a major mining power. Justin, you're a great guy with a solid knowledge of minerals, but your facts about mining in the USA are misconstrued, and anecdotal.

Murfreesboro was great!!! I went there in hopes of finding a diamond in the park at night with a flashlight because diamonds, I thought, would flare or sparkle and light-up the night sky(not so or they just aren't there at night.) We had a lot of fun trudging around "after hours" looking for our "lost dog smokey." Classic story but we ended up completely muddy and back at the car by 10 p.m. I must say that it was the best family trip we've taken and probably couldn't top it. It's pretty cool to think it is actually a kimberlite pipe and there are still diamonds there but my logic says "hmmmm." Kimberlites are interesting and I heard a county in Kansas i.e. Riley has a few kimberlites but they've been tested and aren't diamondeferous. I'll do my own study on those geological anamolies later with the backing of the AGS, USGS, KHS and DeBeers. P.S. I purchased some pink diamonds for my wife and I truely wish they came from "the crater of diamonds state park" but they came from "Tiffany." I'll attach a picture of some cool piece I found but it isn't slag or a diamond from Murfreesboro. Cheers, Jeff Hitchcock