We have launched the women's only forum. Thanks to Jolyon and Ida!
If you wish to be able to post, please let me know and we will add your name to the list.
Hey guys, no offense meant...we need a place to let women ask questions they might not otherwise ask. And we also wish to let women pair up with others at shows so they are not alone while shopping or browsing, but can meet up with other women to add to the fun.
Anyhow, let me know on here or my home email, BikinGail@aol.com

Welcome to Mindat Women's forum!
Gail Spann, Moderator
Rockwall, Texas



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/21/2008 02:09AM by Gail Spann.

YEAH, finally!

Sign me UP!

You do have to sign up with Gail to have permission to post to or read this forum. Good thing Jolyon is in the UK.

Well ...

Call me sexist if you like but I think that a female only forum is a retrograde step - where next, "name any religon", american, british, russian, or whatever ethnicity only discussion groups?

I'm sure that if a male only forum was set up there would be outrage from the feminists out there.

I just do not believe it is necessary - if females want to contact Gail they can, but why have a secret women's only forum?

Frankly I thought the world had progressed.

I like Gail's many contributions and I guess I would be disappointed if those become restricted to an elite women's group / movement or whatever.

A collector is a collector.

Why not keep all forums open to all? After all, last time I checked my minerals they didn't have any gender!

Keith,
Women won't be leaving the general forum, and as I said this is about getting more women involved, feeling more comfortable and working to make relationships where a woman can meet up with other women and come to mineral shows where they won't be alone to browse and shop.
Feel free to start a man's only forum, you won't get a word of disapproval out of me.
I belong to many groups, most have a women's forum.
I have been under attack ( more than once) on the general forum, enough so that women have written to me privately and said that is why they DON'T post anything. And that is what inspired me to give women a place where they can ask questions and not be unduly attacked for their lack of knowledge. I see it over and over again, and it is terribly sad indeed.
So, please Keith, do what you will...say what you will...but please understand that this is a way to entice more women into the hobby, not drive them out of it.

Best regards, Gail

Oh, and you won't be losing me from the rest of the forums! I am still going to post on a regular basis, not to worry!
Thank you Keith!

Jolyon,

As a research psychologist with over 100 journal articles, I'd be interested in launching a systematic survey to determine what, if any, gender differences in perspective exist in mineral collecting.

Could we get MinDat to participate in this?

Thx, Jim

Yes, Jim, would be very happy to help with this.

Jolyon

Great! This is going to be so much fun. I will be drafting a questionnaire this week.

Thanks! Jim

hi gail

can i join if i drag up?

ian

Ian, I put your name in our list first!

wow,what a great idea,superb,wonderfull,mind boggling,stupendous,i love advancement,woopie,,,abuelito

Hi Gail,
A sensitive issue - and my first thought was "don't even go there!". But, screwing up my courage here, I have to say that I share Keith's concerns.

Firstly, I don't think that put-downs of the less knowledgeable are reserved for lady victims by any stretch of the imagination. I agree with you that such behaviour is terribly sad, but - just one example - at a recent mineral show I saw/heard a middle-aged male patronised in a group conversation for asking one or two basic questions to which civil and patient answers would have afforded him pleasant participation and enhanced understanding.

Secondly, some of the most enjoyable threads on Mindat have been started by ladies, and the additional perspectives contributed by female collectors are very valuable. I fear that some of these threads at least will now gravitate to the ladies forum where they will be invisible to all with a Y chromosome. There is much wisdom contributed by female collectors and I, for one, would like to continue to benefit from it.

I'm all for encouraging more collectors to the hobby, and if we can make it an even split - male/female - so much the better. It is after all, a social hobby, and social groups work much better mixed in my view. I just wonder if this is the right way to encourage more ladies without compromising the existing culture and quality of this unique and excellent forum?

There! Hope I've caused no offence here, but as Keith says - we're all collectors!

Good luck anyway!

Hey Guys...

As my wife is involved in the hobby, let me point out something very obvious...

Women are outnumbered 50-1 in this hobby. Well, if you leave out the metaphysical girls, it is more like 100-1.

Well, since I don't feel outnumbered, I'm pretty comfortable with my standing.

So, geesh, you guys can't give them a forum without freaking out. I think that is exactly why the NEED their own forum. I'm pretty sure it isn't for nefarious reasons and lets face it. Do WE guys want to hear "Girl Talk"? How many of you run to the next room when your wife gets on her "Marathon gab session" with her girlfriends on the phone?

Nothing to see here guys...move along.

Oh, and Keith, if you don't think minerals have a gender, obviously you haven't seen Carolyn Manchester's collection! HA

Justin,

Your point is a good one, and I suspect I should have followed my original "don't go there" instinct.

In an ideal world we would all treat one another properly and decently and the need for this sort of "affirmative action" would be redundant.

Just too much to hope for I guess!

As I said to Gail - Good Luck with the new forum!

I see this all as an empirical question -- namely and firstly, are there any inherent differences between men and women in their perspective of minerals? And if so, what might they be?

I would not expect any such differences over all, since, from a scientific point of view, men and women are more alike than they are different. And, many observed differences reported in the social scientific literature often turn out to be gender-based (learned) as opposed to sex-based (biological). But, I plan to test this all in a formal study.

The purpose of this new forum, from what I sense in the descriptions, has more to do with experience-level than it does sex or gender. For example, I can't think of any special perspective a woman would bring to the hobby that a man couldn't bring -- and vice versa. Both men and women can be artistic or academic. This just reaffirms in my mind that this forum might really be making an implicit distinction between "novices" and "serious" collectors.

If this is the case, then it is understandable why people have concerns and question whether the forum is needed. Many new collectors post basic questions here without fear of ridicule, and MinDat members always seem eager to answer those questions without coming across as patronizing or dismissive. In fact, a major function of MinDat, as I see it, is education on all levels. Stimulating and fun discussions are frequently started or enhanced by people new to the hobby. MinDat will certainly lose something if its sense of community is divided.

Just some thoughts...

Jim

My God, you are all dissecting this to pieces.


For heaven's sake guys, let it have a test period will you?

Shame on you all for seeing this as how it affects YOU and not how it might be helpful to others. And you are already working on a theory of the differences to justify the fact that women have their own forum???? Look at what you are doing to this thread, what makes you think this isn't enough to drive some women off of this site?

Now shush and give this women's forum a chance!
Behave, all of you! Enough!

Good heavens.

I didn't reply to this earlier because I didn't think it was really my place to comment on a messageboard area that I'm not involved with, but as people are getting the wrong idea about this, I figure I have to.

First of all, this is NOT an official part of mindat.org's messageboards in the normal way. This is something that Gail wanted to set up, and I said that as a favour, I would host it here on mindat. Gail runs it, I've nothing to do with it, and I'm happy that way.

I think that Justin got it exactly right - women are the minority in our community, and if Gail can help use this forum to encourage more women to join up, contribute initially within her forum and then expand out to the greater community, then this will increase the amount of people contributing and discussions we have in our public areas, not decrease.

So. Everyone who thinks they are "missing out" on something can be quite happy in the knowledge that they are not. What Gail and the other members of the forum want to talk about is up to them, but I am absolutely sure that ANYTHING that would be of interest to the collecting community as a whole will be brought out to discuss in the public forums.

Jolyon

AMEN Jolyon! Thank you!

Thanks for the clarification, Jolyon

And speaking for myself here, I see all of these comments as healthy debate. They should not be taken personally by Gail or anyone else. Gail has been an active member in terms of threads and photographs here on MinDat and she serves as a wonderful role model for participants. No one is attacking Gail. Some people are merely questioning the rationale and implications of this new endeavor. If it helps people, then that is wonderful.

That said, I would hope that no one (women or men) would avoid a website or think negatively of it because people exercise their right to voice differences of opinion. After all, debate and discussion are what these forums are for! Healthy debate shows tolerance and exemplifies a welcoming of diversity; it is not something that should be stifled because it is an expression of intolerance.

Let's all keep perspective here!

It reminds me of a Homer Simpson quote. Marge wanted to go a marraige counsler, but he didn't want to, stating that they "turn wives against husbands, children against fathers, everyone against me"





Edited 2 times. Last edit at 03/25/2008 01:54AM by Brandy Naugle.

Jim, I happen to like you a lot too.

Now, back to where I started.

We have launched the women's only forum. Thanks to Jolyon and Ida!
If you wish to be able to post, please let me know and we will add your name to the list.
Hey guys, no offense meant...we need a place to let women ask questions they might not otherwise ask. And we also wish to let women pair up with others at shows so they are not alone while shopping or browsing, but can meet up with other women to add to the fun.
Anyhow, let me know on here or my home email, BikinGail@aol.com

Welcome to Mindat Women's forum!
Gail Spann, Moderator
Rockwall, Texas

Hi all,
My first time posting here.
As a woman, I'm not so sure that I feel comfortable joining the "woman only" forum. This someway seems to be somewhat degrading. "What, I can't hang with the men?" and "I could never reach a level in collecting that men have?" I've studied and worked very hard to be the best collector that I can be. I'm hoping that all "sexes" will accept the level that I am at.
It's just that for me, to willingly segragate myself from the mainstream seems against who I am.
But on another note, I can see how it may make those newcomer woman be more comfortable at first. My hopes are that eventually, they will come out of this forum and join the rest of us. I'm sure we would love to hear what they have to say.
Just my thoughts.
Thanks,
Cindy

Those that want to, will. Those that don't, won't.

Those that feel the need to have a Women Only forum, for whatever reason, should be able to have just that, without having to justify it.

Does everyone, who has in some way questioned the need for a seperate forum, feel that they are going to, "miss out," on something that is said? Are you that insecure?

Bill G

And, I am glad that the DEBATE about this has encourage one new poster to join in on the forums - it proves the idea is a good one!

Jolyon

This is the 26th post to a topic called "Yoo Hoo! Calling all ladies!". Sixteen of these posts have been from men. In the case of whether such a forum is necessary, the defense rests.

Good luck, Gail, with your forum.

Cindy, it is an addition to the forums not a way to leave the forums. You can enjoy all others without being exclusive to the women's forum only.

I don't see where people get that a woman's forum means that women are leaving the rest of the mindat site in a mass exodus? It is an additional area for helping newcomers and those that are wishing to ask questions that they otherwise might not. I am contacted, repeatedly, by women who are asking me questions and they do so because they are nervous to ask on a general forum. This way the women can answer as a group, not just Gail doing it all.
( Frankly, having many answer a question serves a greater good than just the one. It forms relationships and adds to the feeling of acceptance.)

I am hoping to set up babysitting facilities by working with show promoters, the need to have a place for children to be safe while freeing Mom up to join Dad is in great need. It is a situation I hear often, "I can't come to shows because of the kids. My husband goes and I stay home."

We will be setting up Museum visits with groups of women, then have lunch or dinner after.

These are but a few of the things that we will be discussing.

So, everyone, please understand that this isn't a black hole. It is a place that adds to the whole experience of being a woman collector. It is a support group. It is a social group. It is a problem solving group.
I simply wish for many women to offer advice besides myself, I am leading a busy life and serve on many boards, some National. I get over 200 emails a day as it is, so a forum works well for me.

Women can elect to join in or not. Just like they do with the Mindat site overall. I can't imagine giving up my general postings as I have become friends with so many men and women on there already. So thanks to those of you who can see the whole picture.

And by the way Bill, Ray, and other men who have been supportive, thank you!



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/25/2008 12:44PM by Gail Spann.

Why one would need to have any separate forums for women's disscusions is beyond me. As far as I can tell the "playing field' on mindat.org is rather even. Perhaps someone could cite some examples of how being a female collector has ever been a problem for them? or how being female placed them at a disadvantage while pursuing their mineralogical interests?

At the end of the day, the discussions on mindat are related to a hard science (mineralogy, geology, chemistry, geography, lingistics, etc..) even if discussed only at the hobby level or on some other tangent. At this point in time, there is no "glass ceiling" in modern science that I am aware of.

I don't see how gender does or should play into it - unless you ladies want to talk some really kinky stuff.

Think unity and common interests. Does such as forum benefit the goals/purpose/mission statement of the site? (I have no idea, I am just asking).

Certainly a forum only for left-handed bald guys would be immediately rejected!

How hostile a reaction would be generated by a proposal for a race-specific forum?

Where is the difference with a womens forum?

Mark,

I'm sorry you feel this is beyond you. The idea is not beyond me, which is why I agreed to it.

I run the website, and if I can feel happy about having this section (which I don't read) without feeling that I'm missing out on something, then I don't see why the rest of you can't too.

Jolyon

ps. Anyone who wants to set up their own interest forum for whoever they want to invite is more than welcome to do so. There are plenty of messageboard websites online that will allow you to do this. And if it's something that, like this case, is something that I think will be of benefit to the community, I might be able to host it on mindat.

Gail: I fully support the women's forum.
The reasons that it's necessary to have such a forum are obvious after reading this thread.

"race-specific forum?"
Well, we already have them, kind of: the non-English language boards (and what would Mindat be without them?).

English only and not have to mess with utf8.

There certainly is a lot of discussion on this topic, both pro and con. My only concern would be if we loose any active participants on this message board to the women's forum and from what I read from Gail that will not happen. That being said, if they feel they need the forum, so be it! I think only time will tell whether it is a success but at least they deserve the chance to find out!

<<Perhaps someone could cite some examples of how being a female collector has ever been a problem for them? or how being female placed them at a disadvantage while pursuing their mineralogical interests?>>

Mark -- I'm going to react to this comment, while not commenting on the value or not of a separate forum, which is a different issue and one where I've had mixed thoughts myself.

Mindat itself is not an issue -- this board is well moderated, full of good discussion and generally does not discriminate on who is posting, although some newcomers may occasionally feel intimidated. And so, you readily see at least a small group of women posting and hopefully more in the future.

However, for women generally in the field and at shows, the situation can sometimes be very different. Not only are we quite often ignored, especially when we are the only female member present in a group or in a dealer's room, but there have been multiple times I can recall, even in public talks, where a male speaker has commented on why they thought women didn't belong in the hobby or by their nature could not be, in general, good collectors (this latter from a very prominent international collector). Or been so condescending toward some of us as to be sickening. I've even heard from prominent professional women in the field who were treated this way on a regular basis, chiefly by older men in the field.

So sorry... there is unfortunately still a difference in the way women are regularly treated by at least SOME men in mineral collecting.

Score: 20 of 34 responses so far on a post called "Yoo Hoo! Calling all ladies!" are from men (~60%). This reminds me of another incident long ago when I was attending a student conference on Science and Society at Stanford. There was a forum advertised to discuss the underrepresentation of women in science. About equal numbers of women and men showed up, but the men dominated the discussion. When asked to attend similar forums later in the week, I declined, but said I was supportive and would be happy to hear a summary of what was discussed. Separate does not always mean separatist.
Men and women often approach things differently, and especially for women who are new to collecting, minerology etc. the somewhat more aggressive approach of men (on average, of course) can be intimidating. Women's forums are a pretty effective, proven way of allowing women to get in a word edgewise now and again. I applaud Gail's efforts and I look forward to whatever insights, opinions and ideas the women in the forum decide they want to bring with them to the regular Mindat discussions.

I was not going to comment on this thread as it was not directed at me.

Let the ladies be and have their own space. It won't change what this site is about.

One of my proudest accomplishments: When I first started teaching high school physics it bothered me that nearly every member of my class was a male. Ten years later, the number of young women equalled the number of young men.

Something that bothers me: I don't like it when a salesperson (often a woman) talks to me and ignores my wife. It happens often.

Guys, lighten up. Although I never met a woman who couldn't get a word in edgewise, if they want to talk among themselves about our hobby, why not? We men do it all the time (have you watched the dynamics at a club meeting?) I surely can not read the Chinese language forum; or the German; or most of the others. Do I feel left out? Maybe a little, but I am not going to obsess about it. Gail is trying to promote our interest and Jolyon is helping. Bravo! When I look at what is happening to mineral club memberships in the US, I think we need all the help we can get.

Be gneiss, guys and remember, schist happens. We need to lighten up. The girls aren't going anywhere. We just need a place to be ourselves and let our hair down

Gail. You go girl, as my unofficial adopted daughter would say.
Linda. Gneiss. And neat too. I rarely manage to think in that type of vein.
I think the whole idea is great. I teach a class on mineral ID for complete beginners. Often the class is about half and half. The women tend to ask their questions after class or by calling me at home. No matter how strange the question may seem I ALWAYS take the time to answer it correctly and if necessary explain the answer. To do otherwise chases folks away.
Sorry guys. Women have minds to, and often have some truely outstanding new ideas.
Gail, Again I say you go for it. I think its great.
Phil

Phil, very uplifting words! Thanks so much.

I am getting about two to three inquiries a day, which is pretty darn good! We are still trying to work out the kinks on how to get everyone on to the Women's forum, they have to be registered with Mindat first and then I can add them to the list.
If that many women are joining up, it is obvious to me that this was a needed thing.
I think this is a win, win situation.
I will be encouraging women to use the other forums as well as the Women's forum.

keep going gail - the more you can get involved the better!