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Paulkerrite?

Posted by Pedro Alves  
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Pedro Alves November 28, 2011 08:49PM
Hi,
are you sure about the paulkerrite? is the sample analysed?
http://www.mindat.org/photo-427393.html
Sorry, but i have my doubts.
Im my opinion, the most probable is to be phosphosiderite.


Cheers,
Pedro Alves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2011 09:37PM by Pedro Alves.
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Peter Haas November 28, 2011 08:54PM
which photo ?
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Marco E. Ciriotti November 29, 2011 10:47AM
Most probably you are right, Pedro.
Ciao.
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Reiner Mielke November 29, 2011 12:04PM
The photo is so bad that how can you know?
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Pedro Alves November 29, 2011 12:57PM
Reiner,
the photo is useless. My proposal is based on typical association (benyacarite + phosphosiderite) and, described by the photo's author, an usual phosphosiderite habit.

Sorry but, for me, the paulkerrite (at Folgosinho) is not proved yet...

Cheers,
Pedro Alves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2011 02:04PM by Pedro Alves.
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Van King November 29, 2011 04:28PM
Is this article in error?

Schnorrer, G. & Tetzer, G. (2005): Paulkerrite, K(Mg,Mn)2Fe2Ti<(OH)3|(PO4)4>×15H2O from Folgosinho quarry in Portugal, an additional locality for this rare compound. Aufschluss 56, 258-260. (in German).

Best Wishes, Van King
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Pedro Alves November 29, 2011 05:49PM
Dear van,
i have a great respect to the authors, but in the article above i can't find any reference to the techniques used to identify the species or results.
In this case, can we assume that as a credible reference?

Cheers,
Pedro Alves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2011 05:49PM by Pedro Alves.
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Eddy Vervloet November 29, 2011 07:27PM
Are you saying you think all paulkerrite is benyacarite, Pedro?

I agree on the picture btw.

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Van King November 29, 2011 08:24PM
dear Pedro,

Glad to know that the identification appears to be a guess rather than supported by data. perhaps it was merely x-rayed?

Best Wishes, Van King
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Uwe Kolitsch November 29, 2011 08:35PM
Message sent.

"... but in the article above i can't find any reference to the techniques used to identify the species or results."

Schnorrer usually analysed minerals by SEM-EDS and PXRD.
I will check the article.
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Van King November 29, 2011 08:52PM
BTW The formula given at Mindat seems to be 2 positive charges away from being balanced, unless they meant H3O.

Best Wishes, Van King
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Pedro Alves November 29, 2011 09:36PM
Eddy,
«Are you saying you think all paulkerrite is benyacarite, Pedro? » No, that is something i can't assure. But, in my experience, all the probable 'paulkerrite' analysed turned out to be Benyacarite.

Cheers,
pedro Alves



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2011 12:33AM by Pedro Alves.
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Marco E. Ciriotti November 30, 2011 08:03AM
Pedro, I am working on some specimens from Folgoshino (of Chiappino) searching possible paulkerrite crystals...
I will inform about the results.
Ciao.
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Pedro Alves November 30, 2011 10:43AM
Ciao Marco,
many thanks in advance.
I'm working on an article about Folgosinho, that will be helpfull (for all).

Ciao,
Pedro
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Marco E. Ciriotti November 30, 2011 08:29PM
OK Pedro,
I will pass the results as soon as they will be closed.
Ciao. Marco
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Eddy Vervloet November 30, 2011 09:09PM
Please keep me posted guys.
And if you need more specimens, I have plenty.

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Marco E. Ciriotti November 30, 2011 10:34PM
Eddy,
please can you send to me just one small specimen?
My address is:
Marco Ciriotti
via San Pietro, 55
I-10073 Devesi-Ciriè (Italy)

I will analize (EDX + SC-XRD, if necessary).
Thank you very very much.
Cheers. Marco
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Eddy Vervloet December 01, 2011 09:34PM
Will do Marco.
Will ship on monday morning.

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Uwe Kolitsch December 02, 2011 09:05AM
I checked the Schnorrer & Tetzer (2005) article.
Roughly translated it says "X-ray and chemical studies led to the identification of ... paulkerrite". No details are given, however, on either techniques used or results of the chemical analyses (such as approximate formula, impurity elements, homogeneity, ...).
The article notes that the xls are colour-zoned (pale and dark yellow) and states "presently ... it is unclear if one of the zones corresponds to benyacarite or not".

So there are clearly some open questions.
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Marco E. Ciriotti December 02, 2011 09:45AM
Thank Eddy and thank you Uwe.
I will inform about the quantitative INCA SEM-EDX results of the Eddy specimen etc.
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Pedro Alves December 02, 2011 01:56PM
Since we are talking about Folgosinho and we are in the right place(mistakes and errors) to discuss these questions.
The place we know as Folgosinho
http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html
is not a quarry, it's a mine called "Sítio do Castelo". First a W mine and later a W and Quartz mine.
The localities, here on Mindat,
http://www.mindat.org/loc-29799.html
http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html
are wrong.
There are no quarries there.

The dumps at http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html are probably from other mines at Folgosinho (Serra do Gato, ladeira de Cramão). If anyone has more concrete data, I think it is risky to to associate it to 'Sítio do Castelo' (the well know phosphate locality) but may remain less precise as: Folgosinho, Guarda...

Cheers,
Pedro Alves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2011 02:05PM by Pedro Alves.
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Frank de Wit December 02, 2011 04:22PM
Hi Pedro,

I don't know about local names, but everyone calls the quarry/mines there with the same name as the nearby town of Folgosinho. If you have the correct local mine-names. Super. Let's add them.
On top of the quarry (in photo http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html), there are entrances to small underground works. And adits elsewhere around the quarry... 2003: 8 years ago. Time flies when you're having fun... I must take time to upload the pictures from underground there...

Cheers, Frank
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Pedro Alves December 02, 2011 04:36PM
Hi Frank,
the underground works you are talking about are related to Sitio do castelo mine. Those works were made in the first phase (when only tungsten was explored).

Cheers,
Pedro
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Eddy Vervloet December 07, 2011 12:02PM
Meanwhile, can I put some oil on the fire?
If paulkerrite/benyacarite is a possible, shouldn't we be looking for Mantienneite as well??
I know that is supposed to be brownish and not greenish yellow, but the formula suggests
it is likely to be present as well no?

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Eddy Vervloet December 10, 2011 04:41PM
Package is on its way to Italy, with some delay...

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Marco E. Ciriotti December 17, 2011 09:21PM
Dear Eddy and dear Alves,
I analyzed (quantitative with standard INCA SEM-EDX) today 7 cystals from the specimens of Eddy, 5 crystals from specimens of Luigi Chiappino. Matrix are notably different but the results are ever the same: banyacarite!
Any trace of Mg in all the specimens!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2011 10:55AM by Marco E. Ciriotti.
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Pedro Alves December 18, 2011 12:05AM
Ciao Marco,
thank you very much for your noble gesture and disponibility to share, so quickly, the information/results with us.
Unfortunately, it turned out as expected.

Cheers,
Pedro
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Marco E. Ciriotti December 18, 2011 10:57AM
Ciao Pedro,
if usefull for you I can pass the analythical report.
You can reply directly to: m.ciriotti@tin.it

Buone Feste!
Marco
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Eddy Vervloet December 18, 2011 03:15PM
Thanks for your efforts, Marco!

But then... should we remove paulkerrite from the locality...?
What do you think guys?

Greetings from France,

Eddy
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Jean-Marc Johannet December 18, 2011 03:40PM
Not sure, there is at least one photo which indicates 'EDS verified material'
http://www.mindat.org/photo-79566.html
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Reiner Mielke December 18, 2011 04:16PM
Don't know how you would verify it with EDS since both Paulkerrite and Banyacarite can contain the same elements.
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Serge Lavarde December 18, 2011 04:29PM
Hi all,

With this article: Schnorrer, G. & Tetzer, G. (2005): Paulkerrite, K(Mg,Mn)2Fe2Ti<(OH)3|(PO4)4>×15H2O from Folgosinho quarry in Portugal, an additional locality for this rare compound. Aufschluss 56, 258-260, we have to believe that Paulkerrite really exists to Folgosinho, and evidence to the contrary, we don't have found it yet.
For me, we must keep this mineral in the list, due to that reference, but I think it's necessary to contact the persons having deposited a photo under the name of Paulkerrite, except http://www.mindat.org/photo-79566.html. It will be necessary to publish them under the name of Benyacarite.
When the authors of the article discovered Paulkerrite, Folgosinho was still in activity.
For those who know this locality, there are big dumps and we have still some more minerals to discover. We spoke about it with Pierre Rosseel and Ludo Vaeck when we met us in spring, over there.
I don’t know in which parts were found the samples analyzed, and in which paragenesis. For my part, I found samples in several areas and among several minerals which I don’t manage to identify are these two minerals, and have numerous samples left to the analysis.
I will keep you informed about the results.
Merry Christmas !

Serge
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Marco E. Ciriotti December 18, 2011 07:53PM
>>Don't know how you would verify it with EDS since both Paulkerrite and Banyacarite can contain the same elements.

If there is not any trace of Mg in the analysis surely it is not paulkerrite. The two minerals are not with the same elements.

As I wrote I have not found paulkerrite in the analyzed specimens. This is not the absolute prouve of the non existence of paulkerrite at Folgosinho.
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Michel Ambroise December 20, 2011 01:55PM
Pedro Alves écrivait:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since we are talking about Folgosinho and we are
> in the right place(mistakes and errors) to discuss
> these questions.
> The place we know as Folgosinho
> http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html
> is not a quarry, it's a mine called "Sítio do
> Castelo". First a W mine and later a W and Quartz
> mine.
> The localities, here on Mindat,
> http://www.mindat.org/loc-29799.html
> http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html
> are wrong.
> There are no quarries there.
>
> The dumps at http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html
> are probably from other mines at Folgosinho (Serra
> do Gato, ladeira de Cramão). If anyone has more
> concrete data, I think it is risky to to associate
> it to 'Sítio do Castelo' (the well know phosphate
> locality) but may remain less precise as:
> Folgosinho, Guarda...
>
> Cheers,
> Pedro Alves


Hello all,

I have already point out this general problem in Potuguese locality.
This is an other example of the problem.
A lot of locality from Portugal have a lack of accurate information or/and wrong informations!!!!!

Because of my interest for minerals in Portugal and Portugal also, i personnally collect informations about mines.
I already register over 500 mines on google earth.
But the job is not easy because in some mining district there is sometime over 20 differents mines and all of them have a local name...

The problem is to find this local name.
But the other problem is to know under wich name this mine have been registered!!!!!
This is not easy when you can't access to this data.
For sure more easy for Portuguese collector.

I have seen the multiplication of Portuguese locality since a year or two, some of them without any informations, sometime even not a picture..

I can do that also, adding hundreds of new locality that i can pick up in the book i have , geological maps i have, internet etc...

A good example here:

http://www.mindat.org/loc-130624.html

I can add 10 like that around Queiriga, with accurate bibliography!!!!!!

Pedro Alves is absolutly right asking for more accurate informations about Folgosinho, because how can we discuss about a mineral from "around there" if we don't even know where we are??????


Michel
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Pedro Alves December 20, 2011 03:38PM
Salut Michel,
Mindat is, if i'm rigth, a database in progress . We can add a locality with the only information disponible, but rigth and precise: the name of the mine and the location.
The minerals we found there, the mine history, geological reports, ect... Can and must be added by the natural growing process (of a progressive database).
And, less is more. When less is reliable, and more is incongruous or even incorrect.

Your claim is understandable and positive, we are all working on that. Less or more winking smiley

Best regards,
Pedro Alves



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 03:40PM by Pedro Alves.
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Rui Nunes December 20, 2011 08:37PM
"I have already point out this general problem in Potuguese locality.
This is an other example of the problem.
A lot of locality from Portugal have a lack of accurate information or/and wrong informations!!!!!
...
I have seen the multiplication of Portuguese locality since a year or two, some of them without any informations, sometime even not a picture..
I can do that also, adding hundreds of new locality that i can pick up in the book i have , geological maps i have, internet etc... "


... and????


Pedro is right! We are doing OUR homework. Any help is welcome.

Best regards

RN
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Jacques-Yves Desescaut December 20, 2011 10:38PM
Bonjour
Je pense que c'est moi qui est rentré Folgosinho Quary N°2
Les photos du site sur mindat http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html
ne correspondent pas a la localisation de cet indice
les photos montrent les dépots situes au début du chemin qui menent au sitio du castelo
Site ou apres une courte visite j'ai trouvé dans du quartz des tourmalines( voir photo) Il est situé
apres avoir traversé Folgosinho , puis pris la direction de la serra par une piste
Actuellement je n'ai pas la possibilité de vous joindre une photo aerienne de ce site Je le ferai debut janvier
Peut-etre on pourra donner un vrai nom à ce site
djy
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Michel Ambroise December 21, 2011 08:38AM
Hello,

Jean Yves says that he problably enter the data for the "folgosinho quarry N 2"

The pictures in the link http://www.mindat.org/sitegallery.php?loc=68871 don't show this locality but the dump at the begining of the "road" to sitio do castello..

In that place he found some tourmaline in quartz like show in that picture
http://www.mindat.org/photo-72330.html

Begining of january he will add a aerial photo of the place , may be some one wille be able to give a real name for this locality..



I hope this translation is correct and helpfull for every one..

Michel
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Michel Ambroise December 21, 2011 09:11AM
Rui P Nunes écrivait:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> Pedro is right! We are doing OUR homework. Any
> help is welcome.
>
> Best regards
>
> R


I hope you don't take my word personally if so i apologize .

I will try to be more helpfull in the future with the data but if i can locate a mine after some search on books, maps, from France, having more accurate information about the real name is extremelly difficult for me.

I simply don't want to add new location like the "ribeiro da queiriga" because it's not usefull..


Michel
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Michel Ambroise December 21, 2011 04:49PM
Rui and Pedro

It was may be the right time to start winking smiley

So check my home page in a couple of days, i have add new pictures of mineral from Portugal.

It need to be approved first.

Enjoysmiling smiley

And have nice christmas and happy new year
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Jacques-Yves Desescaut December 23, 2011 09:32PM
Bonjour Voici la localisation de Folgosinho Quarry N2
Là ou j'ai trouvé
http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=68871

Il reste à mettre un nom exact à cet indice
djy
open | download - Folgosihno2.jpg (91.2 KB)
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Michel Ambroise December 24, 2011 11:01AM
Hello,

Jean yves says that he have locate the folgosinho quarry n2 where he found this

http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=68871

Open the file to see the location.



This is what i found from my side

For the exact name of that place i can see on the geological map and also on 25000 map the name "Vale da moira" or "Quinta da Moira"

The geological map show two veins in that part, included in a porfiroid granit, (granito porfiroide de grao medio ou medio a fino)

Two veins of "basic rock" (filoes de rochas basicas) occurs in between the vale da moira indication...
The one i guess to be the one for the folgosinhos quarry n2 seems to be located in MELO and not Folgosinho area
But the nearest "Quinta da moira" is located in Sao piao and the work that Jean yves show at the limit of Melo and Sao piao but in Melo...

Information that i took from the instituto geografico de Portugal
http://www.igeoe.pt/home/home.asp

May be this work was registered somewhere but nothing in the "Dados da pedreira"

http://e-geo.ineti.pt/bds/pedreiras/default.aspx


Hope this will help

Have a nice christmas to all

Michel



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/24/2011 11:47AM by Michel Ambroise.
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Pedro Alves February 23, 2012 05:20PM
Hi again, just to close the topic.
The place called by DJY as Folgosinho quarry2 is a quartz and feldspar mine called: Alto dos Seixos nº2, at Gouveia (S. Pedro), Gouveia, Guarda.
The mine is very close to another mine:
Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2. An Sn mine at Melo, Gouveia, Guarda.

Cheers,
Pedro Alves
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Knut Edvard Larsen February 23, 2012 07:07PM
Thanks, Pedro for clearifying this.

I have tried to correct the "Folgosinho quarry2"- locality according to this, please check if it is more correct now. : http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html

Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2 Mine entered as a new locality: http://www.mindat.org/loc-237341.html
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Pedro Alves February 23, 2012 07:28PM
Hi Knut,
thanks for the changes.
There is just a small error.
The locality photos at the 'old' Folgosinho quarry2 are not from 'Alto dos Seixos nº2', they are related with a dump near Sitio do Castelo mine (AKA Folgosinho quarry). Those dumps are NOT in the area of any mine in the region.
The closest mine to this place is Maria Soares (quite close).

Cheers,
Pedro Alves



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 07:32PM by Pedro Alves.
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Knut Edvard Larsen February 23, 2012 07:52PM
Message sent on the photos
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Errol Culver February 24, 2012 01:50AM
Gentlemen,-
I have been following this debate with great interest, being that I am an amateur collector of micromounts and because my grandmother immigrated from Folgoshino to America back in the late 1930's. I have two questions to ask to anyone who might be able to help.
First,-Where is the mine located in relation to the town, I would love to locate it on Google Earth.
Second,-I have been wanting to have lab confirmation of the identity of several species of minerals that I have found in the San Francisco Bay Area of California, but do not know the beginning basics on how to get such confirmation or identification accomplished. One appears to be Yugawaralite epitaxial with Laumontite, a common paragenesis. Do I simply take the specimens to the nearest University, or is there a better way? ..and what am I looking at cost wise?
Sincerely,-Errol Culver of Fair Oaks, CA.
avatar
Michel Ambroise February 24, 2012 09:04AM
Pedro Alves écrivait:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Knut,
> thanks for the changes.
> There is just a small error.
> The locality photos at the 'old' Folgosinho
> quarry2 are not from 'Alto dos Seixos nº2', they
> are related with a dump near Sitio do Castelo mine
> (AKA Folgosinho quarry). Those dumps are NOT in
> the area of any mine in the region.
> The closest mine to this place is Maria Soares
> (quite close).
>
> Cheers,
> Pedro Alves

Hi Pedro,

Sure, there is no mine for the folgosinho quarry2.
The dump is may be from the two veins you can see on the geological map and nothing else...........

Read what i write before, and compare the location given by jean yves with 25000 map and google earth................

Two options, the dump is related to the vein or the dump is coming from somewhere else just to refill the bad "road"..
avatar
Pedro Alves February 24, 2012 02:21PM
Salut Michel,
before yesterday changes, we had a locality called: Folgosinho quarry nº2.
The locality was added by DJY and was related with some works quite far from Folgosinho(Sitio do Castelo).
We had, also, some photos of the dumps in the way to Sitio do Castelo. But, the photos are not of the place called and added by DJY as Folgosinho Quarry nº2.

To clarify the place called by DJY as Folgosinho quarry nº2 is: )and i'm repeating myself) a quartz and feldspar mine called: Alto dos Seixos nº2, at Gouveia (S. Pedro), Gouveia, Guarda.
The mine is very close to another mine:
Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2. An Sn mine at Melo, Gouveia, Guarda.

The other place, the dumps in the way to Sitio do Castelo, is not included in any mining area. But, the place is quite close to Maria Soares Mine. Anyway that doesn't mean much. The material in the dumps can have a lot of proveniences...

Clear now?

Cheers,
Pedro Alves
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