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Identity HelpWhat is vertine quartz?

11th Nov 2017 17:42 UTCTheodore Hansen Theo

Got a piece of this today and cant find much on the internet about it any help is welcome!

11th Nov 2017 18:21 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager

Probably one of these useless commercial names for " stupid " quartz.

11th Nov 2017 19:03 UTCLuca Baralis Expert

"Vert" as green in french?

11th Nov 2017 19:26 UTCWayne Corwin

got a pic?

11th Nov 2017 21:52 UTCTheodore Hansen Theo

this quartz name "vertine" is from 1987! thats how how old the piece is! so is this actually "lemon" quartz that once was called vertine? idk! but it is gem grade material whatever it is!

12th Nov 2017 01:35 UTCOwen Lewis

There is nothing there that says 'quartz' to me - not even the label. I have never heard of 'vertine' but, as has been said, traders continually dream up new ones. But you say this name has been around since 1987... so where has it been hiding for these last 30 years?

Can you put up some test results and other observations, Theo? SG? Optic character? Pleochroism? Hardness? Fracture? Cleavage? UV LW/SW fluorescence? Crystal form (with another view straight down the long axis? Just give us the facts, sir. Just give us the facts....

12th Nov 2017 01:56 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Vertine may just be another name for greenish quartz much like amethystine for purplish quartz. Looks like a piece perfect for doing SG.

12th Nov 2017 03:08 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

Tourmaline that is green is sometimes referred to as "Verdelite" and the yellow/orange variety of quartz is called "Citrine". Maybe somebody was trying to be creative and combine the two terms to create "vertine". Just a guess...

I agree with Reiner, a specific gravity test should solve this quickly...

12th Nov 2017 05:34 UTCTheodore Hansen Theo

so I have a simple kitchen scale and I weighed the specimen at 11 grams (but the label says 12.10) and in water it is about 4 grams agian my scale doesnt do more than simple digits in grams. also it does not scratch quartz and quartz does not scratch it I tested several crystal of quartz and they both cancel out each other! the top of the label ripped off and now you can see it says Quartz Natural...maybe this is lemon quartz? but what is "Jarvi"? another thing is when you look straight into the specimen you can see 2 thin dark layers that you cant see from other angles of the crystal so it like it has a couple of thin black color bands in it. the back of the label says 0.95/Gm which means 0.95 cents per gram and then it says "price - $11.50" so more help is welcome!!

also it does not fluorece under long wave but doesnt seem to either for short wave....hmmm...any ideas? in the 2nd pic you can see the top black thin band area)

another thought was what if it is space glass? like Libyan desert glass? that basically quartz grains melted isnt it? and it can have banding right? I just dont know! but I am doing much research as we speak!

12th Nov 2017 06:00 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Jarvi may be a dealer/former dealer at Tucson

12th Nov 2017 06:42 UTCTheodore Hansen Theo

ok thanks! that helps clear up that info

12th Nov 2017 08:03 UTCKevin Hean

Check out the Gemmological sites ,such as Gia etc.

It looks a lot like "Lemon Quartz". Lucas is correct Vert means Green.

Its normal Quartz that has been treated with heat and irradiation. Pretty common in the Gem world at the moment,

12th Nov 2017 09:07 UTCTheodore Hansen Theo

ok lemon quartz it is then

12th Nov 2017 15:45 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Looks like a gem trade name that never gained popularity

1994 AGTA Spectrum Awards™ Winners

Pendant Enhancer: 10 Ct "Geo Pyramid" Cut Vertine with with .10 Ct brilliant Diamond set in 14K green gold

http://www.agta.org/awards/1994-winners.html

14th Nov 2017 00:20 UTCOwen Lewis

I got a steer to a to much better cut example (IMO) at the U of T, here http://www.jsg.utexas.edu/vargas/sample/1349/. This example gives the clues as to how this is made. We have an (American?) name for lightly heated (140-280 deg C) smoky quartz, taking it towards lemon quartz but not all the way there (Nassau K; 'Gemstone Enhancement'. A great cut for showing off that treated material to best advantage, I think. There's always more to learn....

14th Nov 2017 01:52 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I thought yellow quartz was citrine?

14th Nov 2017 03:44 UTCOwen Lewis

Yellow quartz results from two different interactions at the sub-atomic level:

1. Minor substitution of the Si by Fe and gamma irradiation causes a violetish colour, such quartz then being called amethyst. If amethyst is heated at 400-450 deg C, the violet colour fades to a medium yellow, sometimes called pale citrine. Further heating at 500-550 deg C deepens the colour to an orangeish or light brownish yellow, the colour most often referred to as citrine. If this is further heated at over 600 deg C, the quartz reverts to being colourles or slightly milky.

2. If there is minor Si substitution by Al rather than Fe and such quartz is gamma irradiated, one gets smoky quartz rather than amethyst. Heating SQ gently in the range 140-280 deg C fades the smoky to a greenish-yellow, sometimes called lemon quartz or else just yellow quartz. As is clearly seen in the example offered by the U of T, material that is some way along the colour transition but not yet complete has been called ~~vertite~~ vertine. It is very likely (IMHO) that any ~~vertite~~ vertine has been first synthesised quartz and subsequently treated since this gives tight control over the end result. The colouration of a natural smoky quartz by the same heating is likely to give a much more variable end result. Prolonged heating of lemon quartz at up to 380 deg C causes the colour to fade, the material reverting to a colourless or milky state.

In nature it is probable that most samples quantitavely analysed will be found to contain chromophore-acting levels of both Fe and Al and thus, in natural colour formation, it will be common that the end result is some mix of both the 1. and 2. processes outlined above.

14th Nov 2017 14:47 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Other than the name what is the difference between vertine quartz and citrine?

14th Nov 2017 16:48 UTCOwen Lewis

Reiner Mielke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Other than the name what is the difference between

> vertine quartz and citrine?

As described in 1. and 2. of my last post. If you want it in one sentence:

The difference is whether Fe or Al is the quartz chromophore and the temperature to which the material is heated.

14th Nov 2017 18:35 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Owen,

You used the word vertite in 2. Didn't realize that vertite and vertine were the same. However in my opinion it makes things more complicated than necessary if you attach the type of chromophore and heating history to the definition rather than just go by the color. Furthermore with this definition we still do not know if the specimen in question is citrine or vertine. I guess the best that can be done is to call it colored quartz. By the way do gemologists distinguish between citrine that has been produced by heat treatment and natural citrine?

14th Nov 2017 19:36 UTCOwen Lewis

Reiner,

Groan... My bad... as the link makes quite clear, it is vertine that is being discussed. Now corrected. Thanks

As for the rest, you asked what the difference was and I told you. If you consider knowing what the cause of a colour is has no interest to you, fine, that's up to you. For myself and quite a few others it's both interesting and useful knowledge - but each to their own.

As to your final question let me first ask a couple of you whilst my fingers rest :-) How do *you* believe that "natural" citrine is formed? Or does it not matter to you since its simply "coloured quartz"?

14th Nov 2017 20:12 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Well, since different causes of color merit different gem names, then let's hope that the distinction between "rose quartz" and "pink quartz" becomes better entrenched in lapidary usage.

15th Nov 2017 03:36 UTCDoug Daniels

And if you have a perfectly faceted and set "yellow quartz" (whether citrine or vertine), how are you gonna test it for the chromophore? Are we just chasing wabbits here? (Yes...SHHHH.....it is wabbit season...)

15th Nov 2017 14:33 UTCOwen Lewis

Wabbits...

Doug, if you see any green then you can't be looking at citrine. If, as well as some green, one sees some yellow and also brownish smoky colours then - so it seems - the label 'vertine' fits, with the imprimatures of the American Gem Trade Association and the University of Texas behind it. As said at the start of this thread, I had never heard of the word 'vertine' until this last week. It seems to be an American addition to the lexicon that has failed to find general acceptance (I couldn't find it in any of the standard reference sources, Merkin or otherwise. Never mind... even stranger things have been known to come out of wabbit-land.

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