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Identity Helpsilicified mudstone?
15th Mar 2018 17:14 UTCDaniel Bennett
a larger piece
15th Mar 2018 18:35 UTCWayne Corwin
15th Mar 2018 18:57 UTCDaniel Bennett
16th Mar 2018 15:26 UTCDonald B Peck Expert
16th Mar 2018 17:47 UTCDaniel Bennett
another notable feature is that it dries out over time. and can be shined up by rubbing it vigorously with a dry cloth. the colors at this occurrence range from green to grey.
17th Mar 2018 16:36 UTCDonald B Peck Expert
The Sp. G. is in the ballpark for serpentine/antigorite, but your piece is too hard.at 5.5 or so. I don't have another good idea. We need someone else to jump in here.
Don
17th Mar 2018 18:04 UTCHolger Hartmaier 🌟
17th Mar 2018 19:51 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Here is an off-the-wall idea: metasomatism of bentonites altered beyond bentonite formation on the sea floor, perhaps during simple, but long-lasting, burial conditions of temperature and pressure. I can’t go into detail about what changes occurred and how. After all, this is just speculation. But there would be no opal-CT left–it should have converted to chert fairly early, having other constituents making for the unusual physical properties. My inspiration was this paper, available on the web (but not for the faint of heart!):
Christidis, G. E., Scott, L. P. W., and Marcopolous, T. (1995). Origin of the Bentonite Deposits of Eastern Milos, Aegean, Greece: Geological, Mineralogical and Geochemical Evidence: Clays and Clay Minerals: 43(1) 63-77. http://www.clays.org/journal/archive/volume%2043/43-1-63.pdf
17th Mar 2018 23:33 UTCBen Grguric Expert
18th Mar 2018 22:19 UTCRoger Ericksen 🌟
19th Mar 2018 15:58 UTCDaniel Bennett
here is another piece from the exact location I collected the other pieces to show the nature of rock it comes from. from the geo map it describes "bedded chert". but shouldn't that be harder that this stuff?
20th Mar 2018 18:11 UTCGregg Little 🌟
You might check out bowenite, a variety of antigorite. It is in the ball park for hardness and specific gravity.
20th Mar 2018 19:32 UTCDaniel Bennett
Roger can your material scratch glass? or apatite? mine will scratch apatite fairly easily.
the definition of silification mentions replacing with fine grained quartz, chalcedony, or opal. the hardness of opal is 5.5-6.5. so maybe opal then. I also noticed a mineral listed under opal in mindat called opaline-chert. maybe that's what this is. bedded.
the hardness test is confusing. if i was just using those hardness picks that geologists use than i would probably have determined it to be a hardness of 3 or 4. a copper penny wont scratch it but fluorite will (with difficulty). so why does it scratch apatite and glass? and what should i consider its hardness to be?
thanks to all who've helped me to try and sort this out.
20th Mar 2018 23:47 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager
21st Mar 2018 00:21 UTCRoger Ericksen 🌟
21st Mar 2018 02:39 UTCBen Grguric Expert
The banded grey-green macroscopic textures suggests either a sedimentary layering or some sort of oscillatory banding (seen in skarns). If the first I'd guess these are psammitic (grey) and pelitic (green, fine-grained) layers. What was mud or clay looks now to be greenish muscovite (sericite or damourite variety) formed as a metamorphic product. Are the grey layers hard and siliceous?
The various serpentine options suggested require the rock to be either an altered ultramafic (e.g. a dunite or peridotite, pyroxenite) or a retrograde altered metamorphosed impure marble (forsterite-bearing which has altered to serpentine). The texture doesn't really resemble these.
Serpentine is decomposed in conc hydrochloric acid with the separation of silica. Daniel has tried this (not sure if it was conc or not) with no change. This would suggest muscovite rather than a serpentine.
Scratch tests are not reliable if the sample is fine-grained like yours and may contain more than one mineral phase as Paul has suggested. The bulk of the green stuff could be sericite with a few microscopic quartz grains here and there. These will scratch things the sericitic matrix won't.
Daniel if you are determined to get an ID on the green material send a small fragment to Attards Minerals for X-ray diffraction analysis (https://attminerals.com/mineral_identification/). It will cost you $50. My guess is it will come back as muscovite 2M1.
21st Mar 2018 03:11 UTCGregg Little 🌟
you asked, "bowenite ever known to come from Precambrian sea beds?" Bowenite like antigorite is serpentinized mafic igneous rock which is common in sea floor extrusive sequences.
To reiterate what Paul has said, as the sample is probably rock then the poly-minerallic nature would give varying hardness test results.
21st Mar 2018 05:06 UTCBen Grguric Expert
23rd Mar 2018 17:21 UTCDaniel Bennett
I like the compact muscovite idea.since there seems to be a few little pockets or crevices containing reflective mica looking crystals.(like fish scales). but isn't 5.5 a little too hard for that material?
this is from the chert description page on mindat.
Bedded cherts may form by compaction and recrystallization of silica-rich biogenic sediments made of opaline tests of single-cell organisms (diatoms, radiolaria) or remains of silicious sponges, both in marine and in lake environments. During diagenesis, the silica in the sediments undergoes a transformation from opal-A through opal-CT to microcrystalline quartz in the mature chert (Oldershaw 1968; Calvert 1971; Lancelot 1973; Hein et al 1981; Pisciotto 1981; Riech 1981; Levitan 1983; Jones et al 1986; Compton 1991).
this is also from that page at the bottom
Siliceous precursor rocks of comparable texture that are primarily made of opal-A or opal-CT are sometimes also called chert, but usually with the addition of the dominant silica phase, for example, "opaline chert" (e.g. Weaver et al 1972; Pisciotto 1981, Calvert 1983; Cady et al 1996).
so maybe I should call it "immature" bedded chert. or maybe bedded opaline chert. or semi silicified mudstone. semi-chertified mudstone.
I am starting to doubt it to be simply silicified mudstone because it really isn't quite hard enough I don't think.
I like the "single-cell organism and silicious sponge remains idea because actually there is one last geologic clue I left out. right below where I found this material (about 10 feet or so) is a bed containing fully hardened "chert nodules" with odd shapes resembling some sort of stromatolite or sponge.
I once asked about those here on mindat identity help titled "stromatolites?".
anyway if anybody has any ideas for an official title for this translucent greenish rock I am interested to hear it. thanks.
23rd Mar 2018 19:26 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
I have found similar rock in the Gunflint Chert of the Huronian Supergroup in northern Ontario (north shores of Lake Superior and Lake Huron). Portions of it may be impure, resulting in hardness of less than 7. However, I didn't test any of these for hardness. Rocks do not have a physical property known as hardness.
Close-up of Gunflint chert, north shore of Lake Superior
Schreiber Beach, Killraine Township, Thunder Bay District, Ontario, Canada
Schreiber Beach, Killraine Township, Thunder Bay District, Ontario, Canada
26th Mar 2018 19:19 UTCDaniel Bennett
I had ruled it out as being chert because of its softness. my rock and mineral book (the Audubon society field guide to rocks and minerals) describes mudstone as being easily scratched with a knife. also under chert it says "hardness: 7 ; hardness is distinctive." the mindat description says 6.5-7 and composed mainly of microcrystalline quartz.
I am having a hard time feeling any closure on this one. it seems like either mindat and other guide books are wrong or geologists have misidentified rocks as chert enough that its accepted as chert now. eitherway I would like to propose in a humble way that mindat change the official hardness of chert to 5.5-7(actually it may be 4-7) and/or note at the bottom that "some chert" is softer and questionable as to if it is chert at all.
is the hardness of chert really irrelevant in the identification of it?
McNamara mudstone exposure
26th Mar 2018 19:20 UTCDaniel Bennett
its opaque
"chert" conglomerate also from McNamara formation
last picture showing a scratch at the lower left easily applied with a knife. are we sure this is chert?
26th Mar 2018 20:44 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
26th Mar 2018 21:39 UTCWayne Corwin
Often with "ROCKS", they can very, some gets "cooked" better than other layers or parts.
So it might 'Almost' be on it's way to being chert,,, just needs a bit more cooking.
26th Mar 2018 22:46 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager
26th Mar 2018 23:07 UTCDaniel Bennett
I'd like to take back what I said about geologists misidentifying chert. I of coarse haven't looked all over the McNamara formation to say this is the closest thing to chert beds that are present.
Paul would it be interesting enough to you for me to send you some so you could slice it up and check it out? i would love to know more about it out of curiosity. i don't really want to make a monetary investment in it however. I'd pay the shipping.
27th Mar 2018 05:11 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Some discussions "out there" of chert are realistic enough to state that what one means by "chert" may have to do with whether it occurs in nodules or as bedded material, and whether it is Precambrian in age or much younger, and whether it directly precipitated in an ocean, accumulated as tiny siliceous skeletons of marine creatures, or formed by replacement of something else. The Precambrian ones tend to occur in beds with shale and "dirty" sandstones. Dirty shales and sandstones grade into materials composed of at least 50% quartz, which is the point after which they qualify as cherts. Actually, the siliceous material in cherts tend to clump together, as if "wanting" to be fairly pure, thus making transitional material less common than one might expect. (I don't know of studies that document what I just said, but maybe there are some; maybe not.) There must be enough quartz in a silica-rich sediment for chert to become cemented. When it does, however, there still can be a lot of clay and loose sand in it. So when you try to do a "hardness" test, you are really just knocking apart the grains of quartz. It won't scratch glass or even a knife blade, and you can easily scratch it--really just gouging out finely divided, softer material. That will be a problem until your sample is fully silicified all the way through. However it may still contain a lot of softer materials, and therefore you may not be able to find a piece that will give you a reading of 7 or even 6-1/2 on the hardness scale. The bedded cherts I pictured here are likely to be relatively impure.
What to do about this situation is a good question. In igneous geology we used to have just granite, diorite, and gabbro, or so the elementary geology textbooks suggest. In fact, there are dozens of intermediaries in that simple scheme with names you have never heard of that practicing geologists use all the time. After all these years, though, it seems that chert is still chert. There are diatomite, porcellanite, and novaculite, however, and there are jasper and flint. So we're making some headway, but we still have a long way to go with siliceous sedimentary rocks. In sedimentary rocks, however, variations in mineral composition are not very important for understanding why a particular sediment was deposited here or there, and how. I'm sure that a very elaborate scheme could be developed that allows us to put cherts into dozens of cubby holes in a new classification chart, and I would not say we shouldn't try to do that. But the people who make a living dealing with sedimentary geology haven't felt that need yet.
27th Mar 2018 07:23 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
27th Mar 2018 10:54 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
Where does it say that - can't find it.
27th Mar 2018 12:57 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
https://www.mindat.org/min-994.html (first return)
https://www.mindat.org/min-49384.html (second)
https://www.mindat.org/min-49385.html (third)
https://www.mindat.org/min-49383.html (fourth)
In the classification sections it is indeed referred to as a rock, but the "chert" page is a mineral page, and it is said to have the hardness values I listed. However, the text does indeed indicate that chert is a rock.
My history here at Mindat includes arguing "chert" and "jasper", and maybe some other terms, quite a bit. Most of what I said about how practicing sedimentary geologists (as was I before retiring) actually use those terms, including in academic circles and current peer-reviewed literature and textbooks, was not given much credence.
Oh, I should add to my earlier long post that I am not talking about a clastic rock that is rich in quartz, but a chemical rock. The clastic quartz-rich rock would be sandstone or siltstone. And, as you know, there are also metamorphic rocks consisting primarily of quartz.
* * * *
For what it's worth: Per my first line, I search for things within Mindat by googling them. I find it easier to find what is useful to me by using Google. I noticed Reiner Mielke has issues also (https://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,7,433763,433832#msg-433832; March 25, 2018 12:37PM). I am concerned about Mindat becoming in-grown, in that you have a group of old-timers at Mindat who do not seem to be listening.
29th Mar 2018 00:16 UTCDaniel Bennett
two questions. if this material turned out to be only 49% quartz could it be considered "silicified mudstone"? whats the difference between chert and silicified mudstone?
29th Mar 2018 01:29 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
29th Mar 2018 03:54 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Another good question. Chert does refer to a chemical sedimentary rock. It tends to occur in blebs in clastic rocks. That’s what I was referring to when I said: ‘Actually, the siliceous material in cherts tend to clump together, as if "wanting" to be fairly pure, thus making transitional material less common than one might expect.’ The answer to your question is that a rock consisting of 49% silica is most likely to have regions of much purer silica (chert) within a background matrix where there is little continuous chert. The rock would have a gross nodular texture. That probably happens because silica in solution tends to crystallize more readily where it contacts silica that has already crystallized. As a result the blebs become larger. See outcrop photo of Armuchee Chert below--Devonian chert near Rome, Georgia.
Other outcrop photos we (both) have displayed are probably largely argillites. Argillite is a mudrock that has been altered to a rather tough (we often carelessly say “hard”) rock that has become recrystallized, with clays and iron and aluminum oxides forming micas, chlorite, serpentine, feldspar, epidote, and other metamorphic minerals. Chert layers and metaquartzites are often interbedded with the argillite. At least one of your outcrop photos looks very shaly to me--not likely an argillite yet (needs more burial time).
Some cherts I have dealt with may be the product of metasomatism of silica-rich mudrocks. The mudrocks were replaced under the influence of hot interstitial fluids that replaced the original material in small batches, and foliation did not develop. Here is a thin section of chert from Lookout Pass, a locality I have enjoyed studying for several years that resulted from metasomatism of mudrocks. Interbedded limestone and dolostones were not affected as much, and apparently the fine-grained silicates supplied much of the silica for production of the chert.
This shows how complex cherts may be--multiply faulted, different generations of quartz crystallization including later vugs now filled by coarser quartz crystals and fibrous chalcedony, and darker layers that were originally especially clay-rich. This degree of complexity, plus the variety of conditions under which chert may form, makes it difficult to make broad generalizations about chert.
29th Mar 2018 04:29 UTCGregg Little 🌟
Regarding to the two questions.
"if this material turned out to be only 49% quartz could it be considered "silicified mudstone"? whats the difference between chert and silicified mudstone?"
Sedimentary rocks are usually determined by their major constituent(s) and its genesis. In your example (49% silica and 51% clay) would be a silicified mudstone. If the percentages were reversed then I would tend to call it chert with a further notation of "siliceous replacement of mudstone".
Further to the discussion of rocks verses minerals, chert is like limestone a mono-minerallic rock, or at the same time both a single mineral and a deposited one mineral rock.
29th Mar 2018 15:52 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
29th Mar 2018 16:18 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
I thought that you may be interested in this deposit of nodular chert at a remote location on the shore of Lake Michigan near Norwood. The nodules are large and are interspersed with veins of chert in a distinct zone in the limestone.
Also, there was a thread some time ago when you described in detail he difference between chert and flint. If you find time could you give us a link to that post? I would like to copy the information into a word document for my files.
Thanks, Larry,
P.S. It appears that the nodules pushed the limestone away during formation.
29th Mar 2018 18:29 UTCGregg Little 🌟
You are quite right in that monomineralic rocks are quite rare/unusual. A striking example might be some of the limestone on the North American continent which technically are not "pure calcite" but really, little is except for possibly in a lab.
As stated previously by others, rock naming is less concerned with the absolute mineralogy and usually references the dominant mineral in the rock. This mineral can be derived from many sources (mechanically, chemically, biologically, etc.). A sandstone is still a sandstone even though it may only be 50% sand. What is more important is the genesis of the rock and the name we hang on it. So with chert the concern is not the purity of the dominant mineral but the environment that causes the silica deposition.
At the beginning of this thread we were shown a small piece of rock, out of context to the surrounding geology and expected to guess the definitive mineralogy. That's a tough road for any geologist.
29th Mar 2018 22:28 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought that you may be interested in this
> deposit of nodular chert at a remote location on
> the shore of Lake Michigan near Norwood.
> limestone away during formation.
Larry,
Would these happen to be in Traverse Group limestones?
Edit: I guess I should have paid more attention to your photo name...... Petoskey Formation, which is Traverse Group! ;-)
30th Mar 2018 19:55 UTCDaniel Bennett
Alfredo Petrov wrote "and so a sharp edge of chert will always scratch feldspar" Alfredo you seem highly knowledgeable about rocks and minerals but your comment doesn't fit for this material in question. this seems to be a kind of softer chert. below shows a sharp piece of "chert" that I scratched back and forth like a saw on a piece of feldspar.
30th Mar 2018 19:56 UTCDaniel Bennett
if did seem to clean to spot but no scratch
I hear what you guys are saying about the grains being knocked off rather than being scratched. this material will leave a scratch on glass. not feldspar. Norman did mention that sometimes this kind of stuff wont even scratch a knife blade. to me it seems completely uniform in texture, color, and hardness.(no spots seem sandier than others). I think I am understanding this stuff to be chert now because nobody has taken the time yet to reclassify it as some kind of soft intermediate chert. it doesn't matter that it wont scratch feldspar. its still chert.
correct me if I'm wrong.
30th Mar 2018 20:05 UTCDaniel Bennett
sorry about that Greg. I have a way of doing that sort of thing. I did try to state the facts about where it was from without dubiously describing more geologic details about it.
30th Mar 2018 21:49 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Thank you for that “demonstration.” Yes, show us something we haven’t seen before!
For a variety of reasons, some scientific and others sociological, that is the best posting I’ve seen on Mindat in a long time! In this case, genius isn’t getting the highest score on the Mensa test or knowing what is in the scientific literature, it’s showing us knowledgeable people something we haven’t seen before. It involves comprehension, conviction, tenacity, and demonstration.
Do you have any more of that clearly uniform stuff? It does need a thin section, and it does need an XRD. I might be able to arrange for both, with interpretations of the data (but I’m not sure what the time frame would be). I can contact you by PM (private message) to make arrangements (note the “Send a PM” at the bottom of the message form).
30th Mar 2018 21:56 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Here is the chert discussion from way back in 2010-11. I don't remember what all happened, but by the end of this I decided that I might enjoy doing other things more than this.
https://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,7,207246,207985
BTW, thanks for the photo at Norwood. Those are bodacious chert nodules! Really impressive.
31st Mar 2018 04:44 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Daniel, Your photos are great, and we should encourage all testing to be documented this way! I would recommend using a smoother feldspar cleavage (or polished feldspar), as hardness tests can be difficult on rough surfaces.
31st Mar 2018 16:53 UTCDaniel Bennett
31st Mar 2018 18:58 UTCNorman King 🌟 Expert
Impurities are also discussed mainly as generalities. Impurities in chert may be present in the form of discrete grains of a foreign material. That is probably the main reason for loss of transparency or translucency in impure chert. However, impurities are also present on the atomic or molecular level, and those may be essentially invisible, except perhaps for their effects on color absorption, magnetic properties, and perhaps some other issues.
I have seen a figure of 5-15% non-silica material typically in cherts, but that was a gross generalization not documented by rigorous data. Other minerals may also have considerable impurities, but 5-15% is probably on the high side for most. For minerals, the impurities may be present as scattered intergrowths of tiny domains or discrete crystals of different minerals that are individually much purer than the 85-95% figure (i.e, allowing for 5-15% impurities, but this not really the kind of impurity we are dealing with here). But don’t forget about solid solution in minerals, e.g. sodium plagioclase to calcium plagioclase. The impurities (or variations) in solid solution mineral series’ are at specific sites in crystal lattices, rather than at unspecified sites as in chert.
Glass is not a mineral, it is an amorphous solid. The glass in Moh’s hardness scale is silica glass. Metals can also solidify into glasses (amorphous solids). Metallic glasses are mainly various kind of metal alloys that can be cooled fast enough to form solids lacking crystal structure, just like silica glass. “Liquidmetal” and “Vitreloy” are commercial names of a series of amorphous metal alloys. “Liquidmorphium” is one example that includes zirconium, copper, aluminum, nickel and silver. (Those may be trademarked names). Such alloys have lots of high-tech uses.
We don’t know what went into the making of any particular silica glass. Some contain more silica than others, and, conversely, less impurities. So, in the issue of this thread, we have two variables–purity of the chert and purity of the silica glass being tested against each other. We have no “control” (i.e., no knowledge) of those two variables. Thus, we shouldn’t get too concerned about a piece of chert not scratching a piece of glass. It might be true, however, that the maximum Moh’s hardness of chert really does match that of quartz.
31st Mar 2018 22:42 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Thanks for the link. I tried to find it by searching your posts but I see I did not go back in time far enough.
17th Aug 2018 17:33 UTCDaniel Bennett
so hardness test on rocks may not be completely useless but special care and understanding is certainly required.
17th Aug 2018 17:34 UTCDaniel Bennett
so anyway thanks again very much to Norman King and the rest of you for the input, insight, and ideas .
11th Jun 2019 07:02 UTCEch Noch
11th Jun 2019 20:08 UTCDaniel Bennett
12th Jun 2019 00:58 UTCEch Noch
12th Jun 2019 01:24 UTCEch Noch
12th Jun 2019 03:02 UTCDoug Daniels
Somethings not right here. If the material can scratch a bottle, it has a hardness of about 5.5 to 6 (or more). If a fluorite crystal can scratch it, it has a hardness of 4 or less. The hardness can't be both.
12th Jun 2019 16:47 UTCDaniel Bennett
Doug , I know what you mean. think of a hard packed dirt road. if you rubbed a bottle on it the bottle would be scratched. and yet you could write your name in the road using a fluorite crystal.
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