Log InRegister
Quick Links : The Mindat ManualThe Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryMindat Newsletter [Free Download]
Home PageAbout MindatThe Mindat ManualHistory of MindatCopyright StatusWho We AreContact UsAdvertise on Mindat
Donate to MindatCorporate SponsorshipSponsor a PageSponsored PagesMindat AdvertisersAdvertise on Mindat
Learning CenterWhat is a mineral?The most common minerals on earthInformation for EducatorsMindat ArticlesThe ElementsThe Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryGeologic Time
Minerals by PropertiesMinerals by ChemistryAdvanced Locality SearchRandom MineralRandom LocalitySearch by minIDLocalities Near MeSearch ArticlesSearch GlossaryMore Search Options
Search For:
Mineral Name:
Locality Name:
Keyword(s):
 
The Mindat ManualAdd a New PhotoRate PhotosLocality Edit ReportCoordinate Completion ReportAdd Glossary Item
Mining CompaniesStatisticsUsersMineral MuseumsClubs & OrganizationsMineral Shows & EventsThe Mindat DirectoryDevice SettingsThe Mineral Quiz
Photo SearchPhoto GalleriesSearch by ColorNew Photos TodayNew Photos YesterdayMembers' Photo GalleriesPast Photo of the Day GalleryPhotography

Identity Helppetroleum included quartz

23rd Mar 2007 14:41 UTCElizabeth McRorie

I received a parcel of this by a rough dealer my husband works with. He knows I have a "thing" for inclusions :) It is petroleum included quartz (or herkimer) from pakistan. From the research I have done on the web, it's pretty rare. But then, that might just be their marketing technique. I am trying to confirm that the black stuff is anthraxolite? I am not even sure how to give more information on it. Anyway, I thought I would share it with you all and see if anyone has seen this before and has information they can share.


This particular stone has a three phase fluid inclusion..gas bubble, black stuff (anthraxolite?) and petroleum. Both the bubble and the black stuff move, and there is another moving bubble on the back side, and several smaller bubbles with in the stone. All of it easily seen without the aid of a loupe.


It's about 20mm x 15 mm x 15mm

23rd Mar 2007 14:43 UTCElizabeth McRorie

and with the bubbles on the other side...

23rd Mar 2007 15:08 UTCPete Nancarrow

One of the ways of getting some data from such inclusions (without breaking into the crystal to extract material for analysis such as chromatography) is to warm the crystal up, and determine the temperatures at which any changes happen. This is more sensitive with smaller pieces, where the mass is small enough for factors such as conductivity and specific heat variations to be insignificant. The inclusion may melt, or change colour or phase (e.g. the solid component of in a 3-phase inclusion may go into solution). It's not really a viable technique for home use; it needs specialised equipment and quite a bit of experience and the relevant data sets to interpret the results, and there is also some risk of bursting the crystal.


As to positively identifying whether you have "anthraxolite", even if you extract some of it, I suspect there are few reliable techniques available outdside organic chemistry laboratories.


Pete N.

23rd Mar 2007 16:08 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Elizabeth


Just as a "heads up" to you, double-terminated short prismatic quartz crystals from localities other than the Herkimer area of New York should not be called "Herkimers." It is a localized nickname, not a general term for such crystals. You could say that such crystals from elsewhere are "Herkimer-like"; but it will only cause confusion if such crystals are called "Herkimers" or "Herks".


A collector (miner?) from Pakistan or Afghanistan came to this board some months ago to ask about this, and it was pretty clear people here did not think it was correct to use the term "Herkimer" for the crystals he was finding in his area.


The current issue of Rocks And Minerals magazine has an interesting article on the mis-use of localized or regional terms for similar materials from other areas. I don't fully agree with everything said in the article, but I agree with the general idea the author is trying to get across: Local nicknames should not be turned into more generic varietal names. (Species named after localities are, of course, a different story.)


Finally, while I can't claim any particular expertise regarding bituminous inclusions in Herks and other Herk-like crystals, I have collected a few over the years and seen the inclusions "up close and personal." The "anthraxolite" found in Herks is a bituminous, tar-like, substance - not a liquid. While it is hard to tell for sure in your photo, the inclusion in your specimen looks like a liquid bubble to me, and would therefore not be "anthraxolite."


Regards


Alan

23rd Mar 2007 18:10 UTCElizabeth McRorie

Thank you for the information on mis-using the name Herkimer. That's how the seller described it to me, so I wanted to include the term in case it helped anyone recognize it.


Right.. the anthraxolite would be the dark solid, not the liquid. The liquid is petroleum. At least that is what I was told it was. There is both liquid and solid in the inclusion.

23rd Mar 2007 20:40 UTCPeter Andresen Expert

Hi Elizabeth,


I got some quartz crystals from Berbes, Spain, which have inclusions of gas, oil and bitumen. That is what I put on the label - since it's all probably complex hydrocarbones, and not minerals... All samples are put in the "quartz drawer"...


Regards

Peter

26th Mar 2007 15:23 UTCSpencer I. Mather

Hi Elizabeth. As a gemmologist as well as a mineralogist I too am interested in inclusions, but here is the e-mail address of a man who is one of the worlds experts on Quartz, his name is Jan Sibtsen and he lives in Holland: ik@jcs-quartz.speedlinq.nl Spencer.

26th Mar 2007 17:26 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Again, Elizabeth


I hadn't realized, looking at the photo, that there was any solid material in the bubble. In that event, the only way you can be sure of its identity is to have it analyzed. (I seriously doubt if even the tar-oil experts can visually distinguish between different bituminous materials. They'd need to do lab work to know what they have at hand.)


Just because "anthraxolite" has been identified in Herks does not mean that any and all bituminous materials found in similar crystals from other localities will be the same thing. Making that sort of assumption might mean that the true identity of a material could go undetermined for a long time.


Regards


Alan

26th Mar 2007 17:49 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Has "anthraxolite" ever been defined as to which carbon/hydrocarbons it is composed of? If not, then ANY carbonacaeous inclusion in quartz might as well be called "anthraxolite", making anthraxolite a generic field term, like "wad" and "limonite".

26th Mar 2007 21:16 UTCAlan Plante

Hi Alfredo,


That's a good point.


I'm not an expert on the bituminous inclusions found in Herks - I don't know if they have been determined to be a particular organic compound, or if the term "anthraxolite" is generic - or even just a localized nickname that the stuff got tagged with. It wouldn't hurt to know; so maybe someone who is familiar with the stuff will click in and tell us.


Alan

29th Mar 2007 23:11 UTCJorge Dascal

In an Lapidary Journal article (September 1973, pp. 966-976) it is written:

"Regarding the yellow color in the Herkimer area the anthraxolite inclusions can have two forms: 1. A pale yellow variety which melted at 70º to 80º C, and; 2. A brown variety which melted at 200º to 220º in contact with the yellow one". Should be the same for Pakistan Herkimer-like crystals?


In Argentina Herkimer-like quartz crystals some of the yellow fluid inclusions are hydrocarbons of an asphalt and paraffin mix base. Others are an aqueous liquid with an important methane proportion. And it comes in different yellow-amber color alone or with other inclusions.

30th Mar 2007 02:40 UTCAymeric Longi

there was a study on AIGS website a while ago about these, as far as I remember, yellow/orange liquid inclusions are indeed oil. unfortunately, seems it is not available anymore.


whatever, these "herk-like" quartz are called "diamond-quartz" in Pakistan (included or waterclear), and often labelled as "golden enhydro" by the few internet shops who sell them. They come from Baluchistan but I don't know from where exacty. I'll be in Pakistan next May, so I'll ask my wholesaler. but yeah, it is rather rare stuff and good pieces can fetch pretty high prices.


eheh, no Alan, me no miner, but collector and future seller from France hooked on Pakistan !


Cheers !


Aymeric

30th Mar 2007 16:25 UTCJorge Dascal

In the abstract of an article at the Geological Society of America (Year 1999, Volume 111, Issue 12, Pages 1884-1896) O`Reilly and Parnell stated that is oil.

Since I cannot read the article it seems that it is similar to the Argentina Herk-like, or vice versa?


As I see it (joking), Patagonia Minerals now need to market two kinds of "quartz crystal diamonds": Argentina Herk-like and Argentina Herk-Baluchistan/Pakistan-like.


Mr. W.D. Grimm (1962) made a study of 150 world localities of these idiomorphic crystals. So it will be nice to see in the market in the next years more Quartz Crystal Diamonds disregarding if they are from Up State New York or from other sources.

3rd Apr 2007 20:13 UTCElizabeth McRorie

Thank you all for the help and information. Looks like I have some more reading to do. I did find a photo that I am pretty sure is the same thing that I have. It is described as: "...rock crystal from Pakistan contains yellow natural petroleum, a methane gas bubble, and small spots of opaque black bituminous material, and a small amount of water." pg 576 Photo Atlas of Inclusions in Gemstones, Vol. 2, Gubelin and Koivula.


I have more of these crystals. I will try to take some more photos to share.


Thanks again!

Beth

10th Apr 2007 04:43 UTCBay Kilpatrick

Hello Elizabeth,


Ive been searching for good golden included quartz as per your photo. Where did you find such a beautiful piece? May I ask what the ball park figure is for such a rare and unusual crystal?


Thanking you in advance

Bay

16th Apr 2007 17:09 UTCRobert Szep

Regarding origins and exact composition or "CLASSIFICATION" of the carbonaceous material of which Anthraxolite is composed, some reaearchers suggest a cosmogenic origin - perhaps from the remains of an ancient cometary impact. Anthraxolite from the SUDBURY area is a good example.

16th Apr 2007 17:21 UTCPeter Haas

Well, this is certainly nonsense. The sub-structures of organic compounds isolated from petrol, oil shales, bituminous matter, fossil resins, lignites and coals do all relate to biogenic pre-cursors.

18th Mar 2014 07:36 UTCP.J.

Hello From Colorado!!

I just wanted to provide you with an answer to your Petroleum Quartz question!

~1 The black inclusions are actually Asphalite -(AKA~Asphalt)!

~2 The Yellow inclusions are methane!

~3 The clear inclusions are either water, or air!

~The unique quality of these gems is that the Methane produces a "STRONG BLUE GLOW", under incandescent lighting!!

~4 This gem has only recently been "UPGRADED" from a mineral specimen to a Gemstone, & as a result, the market has REALLY taken off!!

~5 You may find that a static Asphalite inclusion will liquify & start to move simply by holding the stone in your hand & allow the gem to "WARM UP!

~6 Finally you need to be EXTREMELY CAUTIOUS if using tools or heat around this stone! Drilling a small hole to place a "jump ring" can actually cause the stone to "EXPLODE" if the drill touches or passes close to a Methane pocket!

Hope this gives you the answers you were seeking, but if not, PLEASE feel free to contact me with other questions!!

GOD BLESS!!

~~P.J.~~

16th Mar 2019 01:55 UTCSue Marcus

Here's a 2016 reference on some of the organics--with info on cause of fluorescence in Pakistani specimens:

https://goldschmidtabstracts.info/2016/2337.pdf

16th Mar 2019 12:37 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

Technically the word "petroleum" refers to both oil and natural gas, collectively. A good general term for the solid or tarry organic matter is bitumen or asphaltum. It is essentially dried up petroelum. I agree that these crystals should be called Herkimer-type quartz, just like Terlingua calcite found outside Terlingua (most of it these days) is called Terlingua-type calcite. The carbon isotope ratio would determine the origin of the organic material, but essentially all of it is from diagenetically processed (buried, heated, squeezed) micro-organisms. Anyone who has dug actual Herkimers can smell the petroleum in the host Little Falls Dolostone and can see the stromatolite fossils in it. The liquid phase will fluoresce brightly under UV light.

16th Mar 2019 21:05 UTCJason Evans

Put it under a black light, you will have a nice surprise!
 
Mineral and/or Locality  
Mindat Discussions Facebook Logo Instagram Logo Discord Logo
Mindat.org is an outreach project of the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: March 28, 2024 19:26:47
Go to top of page