Help mindat.org|Log In|Register|
Home PageMindat NewsThe Mindat ManualHistory of MindatCopyright StatusManagement TeamContact UsAdvertise on Mindat
Donate to MindatSponsor a PageSponsored PagesTop Available PagesMindat AdvertisersAdvertise on MindatThe Mindat Store
Minerals by PropertiesMinerals by ChemistryRandom MineralSearch by minIDLocalities Near MeSearch ArticlesSearch GlossaryMore Search Options
Search For:
Mineral Name:
Locality Name:
Keyword(s):
 
The Mindat ManualAdd a New PhotoRate PhotosLocality Edit ReportCoordinate Completion ReportAdd Glossary Item
StatisticsThe ElementsMember ListBooks & MagazinesMineral Shows & EventsThe Mindat DirectoryHow to Link to MindatDevice Settings
Photo SearchPhoto GalleriesNew Photos TodayNew Photos YesterdayMembers' Photo GalleriesPast Photo of the Day Gallery
bannerbannerbannerbannerbannerbanner

Fake hauyne?

Posted by Rio Reason  
avatar
Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:04PM
So this guy is trying to sell me a nice hunk of blue crystal he calls hauyne for $250, but I'm hesitant to believe that it's real. It looks like gonnardite to me [EDIT: found something that looked like it in a gonnardite search here: http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html ], but I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. He says it's from Badakhshan, Afghanistan, which is what led me to discovering an overwhelmingly similar looking gonnardite from that region on this site. I've also found his ebay and have sadly found what appear to be crystals glued to matrices :-(

Could anyone give me an opinion on what's in these photos?







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2017 05:33PM by Rio Reason.
avatar
Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 05:10PM
It is not gonnardite, gonnardite is white and does not form crystals like that .
avatar
Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:12PM
Thanks, that's a start. I must have misread what came up... maybe I can find it again.
avatar
Rio Reason January 10, 2017 05:16PM
This is what I saw that made me think is was gonnardite:

http://www.mindat.org/photo-410005.html

The rest in the search are white, so I thought that maybe it was some other unusual form of it.

I think I had first just Googled "hauyne bagakhshan afghanistan" and ended up at that link.
avatar
Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 05:28PM
The white patch on the blue crystal is the gonnardite. Your specimen has no white patches due to alteration to gonnnardite.
avatar
Ralph Bottrill January 10, 2017 10:08PM
It could be hauyne, or what we once called lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of related minerals found in this region, hard to say without testing.
avatar
Reiner Mielke January 10, 2017 10:21PM
Doesn't have the right crystal form for afghanite. Rob Woodside would have a better idea of what it is.
avatar
Rob Woodside January 10, 2017 11:04PM
It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has been re attached. It is most likely from the Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid eaten and if so, it came from the south side of the creek. Those from the north side escaped the acid.
avatar
Rio Reason January 11, 2017 04:11AM
Rob Woodside Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's a hauyne with some translucency. The blue
> stuff in Lapis Lazuli that we used to call
> Lazurite is opaque and not fluorescent. The only
> caveate I'd have about it is if the crystal has
> been re attached. It is most likely from the
> Sar-e-Sang River occurrence where the hauynes do
> alter to white gonnardite. It looks a little acid
> eaten and if so, it came from the south side of
> the creek. Those from the north side escaped the
> acid.

Thank you, that's very interesting! :-)

Is the price as high as I think? Or could it actually be low from the damage? I couldn't find anything good to gauge it against, but maybe I don't know what places to look.

Ralph Bottrill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It could be hauyne, or what we once called
> lazurite, or maybe afghanite or a number of
> related minerals found in this region, hard to say
> without testing.

...Are you saying lazurite is an outdated name for hauyne?

I don't suppose anyone could tell me how to pronounce hauyne/hauynite?
avatar
Alfredo Petrov January 11, 2017 04:38AM
ow - een
avatar
Ralph Bottrill January 11, 2017 09:07AM
Practically all lazurites that have been analysed have been found to be hauyne.
avatar
Uwe Kolitsch January 11, 2017 02:07PM
"ow - een" - only if you are a native English speaker ;-)
avatar
Alfredo Petrov January 11, 2017 04:50PM
Right, Uwe, but this messageboard thread is in english ;-)
avatar
Owen Melfyn Lewis January 11, 2017 05:14PM
@ Alfredo,
You called, mon ami?

@ Ralph,
Is that 'sulphur-rich' hauyne? See http://rruff.info/doclib/hom/lazurite.pdf, http://rruff.info/lazurite/ and http://rruff.info/hauyne/R070557. A comparison of the RRUFF raman spectra is thought provoking?

@ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue. The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as is 'main'). It would be surprising though if pronounciation did not differ with the language of the speaker.
avatar
José Zendrera January 11, 2017 06:46PM
I think it could be sodalite.
The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it has very distorted color due to blue light contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365 nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite is orangish red.


Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos in attached pics
avatar
Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:38PM
José Zendrera Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it could be sodalite.
> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it
> has very distorted color due to blue light
> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm
> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent
> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365
> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite
> is orangish red.
>
>
> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos
> in attached pics

Oh wow... that does look very similar. And they come from the same place? He sent me some more photos, I don't know if they'd help at all in identification, they're pretty low res. They do show quite a few more specimens, though:





Now that you've suggested it, I can see a resemblance to sodalite.
avatar
Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:42PM
I had no idea sodalite could be so pretty! Learn something new every day. I'm glad I came here for clarification.

I hope some of you are fond of answering questions! I'm sure I'll have a lot, about a lot of different little treasures! :-D
avatar
Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:46PM
José Zendrera Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it could be sodalite.
> The fluorescence photo is confusing. Looks like it
> has very distorted color due to blue light
> contamination from the UV source, maybe a 400 nm
> LED without filter or a "black light" fluorescent
> tube. Using a mercury vapor lamp with filter (365
> nm) the fluorescence color of Sar-e-Sang sodalite
> is orangish red.
>
>
> Sar-e-Sang sodalite. Can see fluorescence photos
> in attached pics

Oh, he did say that he took the photos using shortwave, but there's a serious language barrier. He may have just picked one to make me happy.
avatar
Rio Reason January 11, 2017 07:51PM
Owen Melfyn Lewis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @ Uwe & Rio. Though it's been my language of daily
> use for 70 years, English is not my native tongue.
> The Brit/Eng pronounciation I find generally used
> for Hauyne and use myself is 'hain' (pronouced as
> is 'main'). It would be surprising though if
> pronounciation did not differ with the language of
> the speaker.

Thank you. I've been struggling with it! First I read it as "hi-yune," then of course with that stuck in my head I had to try to remember to read "ow-een." "Hain" makes a little more sense, but I'd probably sound silly to any American that heard me say it!
avatar
Ralph Bottrill January 11, 2017 10:09PM
If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween, but it gives a slightly different pronunciation for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.
avatar
Owen Melfyn Lewis January 12, 2017 12:43AM
Ralph Bottrill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you believe wikepedia its pronounced ah-ween,
> but it gives a slightly different pronunciation
> for Hauy (nearer to a-way) so it would be
> interesting to see how the French pronounce it?

Yes, it would - but would not be be binding on the English pronounciation(s). Languages frequently change the pronounciation of words they take into their own.
>
> Owen, Hauyne has more sulphate than sulphide
> anions, while lazulite should be the opposite, but
> the Ruff analysis shows their "lazulite" is
> sulphate dominant, thus is hauyne.

My reading of the entries in the RRUFF database suggests that hauyne does not have the sulphide anion whilst it is (always?) present in lazurite. There are four detailed analyses of lazurite from different parts of th world but only one for hauyne it would seem. There is no sulphate (SO4) in the ideal chemistry offered for lazurite but (as per the analyses) it is to be found (often?) in both hauyne and lazurite. Thus at least one key differentiator of lazurite from hauyne present is the presents of the sulphide anion. That anion is essential to the production of the startlingly rich blue pigment (ground lazurite) that is ultramarine. These days, thanks to lab synthesis, dye manufacturers seem to have the recipe pretty firmly fixed. But nature, as always, runs a very messy workshop and geological samples may well but rarely show an ideal composition.

Whether or not lazurite should retain its IMA status as a mineral species is a debate I'll stay out of. However, it is and I think always will be of importance to a significant number that lazurite be retained as the name for sulphide-rich molecule.
avatar
Ralph Bottrill January 12, 2017 10:57AM
Yes i should have clarified Owen, its defined as a sulphide-dominant end member, but in fact none have been proven to be so, and they are all sulphide-bearing hauyne. Maybe lazurite could be a useful varietal name if the true endmember can be proven to not exist, but you should not use the same name for both a theoretical endmember of a series and a variety of another endmember of the series. See also: http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,326838,403101



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2017 11:17AM by Ralph Bottrill.
avatar
Rob Woodside January 12, 2017 07:56PM
Jose, I suspect your sodalite is Hauyne and EDS would tell the tale with the Cl peak. Sodalite fluorescence is less brown and more orange to yellow.
avatar
José Zendrera January 13, 2017 12:17AM
Thanks Rob, at the end all blue stuff from Sar-e-Sang turn out to be haüyne!

Three "sodalites" with very different UV response.
Up - Halogen light
Center - LW UV
Bottom - SW UV

avatar
cascaillou March 20, 2017 05:17PM
ah-ween is closer to french pronunciation

you can hear the name of french mineralogist René Just Haüy in this video at 4:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPZ4SX23osA



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2017 05:29PM by cascaillou.
avatar
Owen Lewis March 21, 2017 10:16PM
But we converse here in english and not in french ;-) In english, the letter 'h' is always aspirated in speech whilst in french the rule is that it is silent, e.g:
1. French pronounciation - 'onfleur. English pronounciation - Honfleur.
2. English pronounciation - Hartlepool. French pronounciation - 'artleypool.

In the written form, the h is always present in both languages but, even then, in French, where a noun is begun with the letter h and that noun is preceded by the definite article (the), then the definite article is always apostrophised, just as if the noun began with a vowel, e.g. l'hauyne.

Both treatments are pefectly correct - but only when set correctly in the context of the language being used. So, in English, the pronounciation of hauyne is hay-een. D'accord?
avatar
Alfredo Petrov March 21, 2017 10:34PM
No accord ;)) ...because people's names should be pronounced the way the person pronounced his own name, regardless of language one is speaking. Owen would be pronounced like "oven" by a German, and you'd correct them and tell them the proper way to say your name, even if the two of you were speaking to each other in estonian, n'est-ce pas?
avatar
Reiner Mielke March 21, 2017 10:47PM
I agree with Alfredo. If what Owen says is true I'd sure like to see how he would pronounce a Japanese name using English rules of pronunciation.
avatar
cascaillou March 22, 2017 12:20AM
Tout à fait.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 12:21AM by cascaillou.
avatar
Owen Lewis March 22, 2017 02:50PM
Alfredo Petrov Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No accord ;)) ...because people's names should be
> pronounced the way the person pronounced his own
> name, regardless of language one is speaking. Owen
> would be pronounced like "oven" by a German, and
> you'd correct them and tell them the proper way to
> say your name, even if the two of you were
> speaking to each other in estonian, n'est-ce pas?

Tsk.... do please buck up Alfredo; you made all that up as you went along :-)

1. We are discussing the name of a mineral, in which personal sensitivities and preferences play no part. The rule stands as given regarding the aspiration of aitches in english and their universal silence in spoken french. So 'hay-een' it is. I didn't invent this. It's simply the explanation for the pronounciation that I learned and and since copy the use of. It's a word to be found in the vocabulary of perhaps only one person in every 10,000 or so? In any language you like.

2. I spent about six years working in an international headquarters in Germany, where english was the working language though there was a majority of native german-speakers on the staff. The correct German custom for addressing work-place colleagues and all others except for family and close personal friends is to use both title and surname, e.g. 'Herr Lewis (pronounced 'Loo-is). There is no discourtesy or unfriendiness implied in this; rather, there is expression of courtesy and respect. However, those several German colleagues and friends who wished to show their grasp of modern english culture and custom would refer to me as 'Oven'. Only one (with a truly excellent grasp of english) do I remember as managing 'Owen'. On no occasion did it ever occur to me to try and correct to 'Owen' the pronounciation of my name.
avatar
cascaillou March 22, 2017 04:47PM
Afterall, if english people got used to a different pronunciation, why not. As long as it gets written correctly.

PS: webmineral has an english audio file associated to each mineral name



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2017 11:26PM by cascaillou.
avatar
Holger Hartmaier March 24, 2017 12:02PM
Reading this thread reminds me of something a colleague once told me when I was working overseas. English is a universal language that everyone will eventually understand- just keep repeating what you want louder and slower until you get what you want. ;-)
avatar
Owen Lewis March 24, 2017 12:34PM
LOL ;-)
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login



bannerbannerbannerbannerbannerbanner
Mineral and/or Locality  
Mindat.org is an outreach project of the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2017, except where stated. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us Current server date and time: May 23, 2017 23:32:31
Go to top of page