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Mineralogical ClassificationIMA nomenclature proposal
5th Aug 2010 21:27 UTCRock Currier Expert
The IMA has something like six pages of requirements for those seeking to have a new mineral recognized and obtain naming privilegedes. As far as I know there are no written requirements by the IMA for changing those names like when a mineral is discredited, or having the name of a mineral changed to something else or new groups of minerals changed or mineral names placed in one group or another or moved to another group. I am not suggesting that the way they are doing things is bad or badly in need of changing. I will however point out, not that it needs pointing out, that all of these other changes often engender irritation if not outrage in various sectors of the mineral community among those who consider themselves "stakeholders" in the mineral name game.
I think a substantial amount of this irritation could be done away with if the IMA would take it upon itself, when one of these changes is done, to illuminate for us all, just what that means in so far as changing the labels of many of the hundreds of thousands of existing labels on existing specimens. In other words when a mineral like Apophyllite is changed into Apophyllite-(KOH) and Apophyllite-(NaF) etc, that it take it upon responsibility for identifying the most prominent Apophyllite localities and having specimens from those localities analysed and publishing the results of that testing so those of us with specimens, schools, museums, collectors and dealers, can give those specimens correct names rather than guessing. John White of the Smithsonian did exactly this for Apophyllite and it was quite helpful. One of my pet peeves is that when the mica nomenclature was changed it was not clear what to call lepidolite, especially the lepidolite from the Stewart Mine at Pala, California. Many many tons of this material has been distributed and sold all over the world and is frequently found in school collections. What is this stuff? We feel we have been hung out to dry and left out of the process.
For those proposing nomenclature changes, I am sure that if they asked the extended mineral community for specimens of minerals from prominent localities whose names they proposed changing, that many examples of specimens from the more prominent localities would be gladly donated for the purpose of determining just what they were. More work for them, yes, but it would go a long way to reducing irritation at the IMA.
5th Aug 2010 21:48 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
>I think a substantial amount of this irritation could be done away with if the IMA would take it upon itself,
>when one of these changes is done, to illuminate for us all, just what that means in so far as changing
>the labels of many of the hundreds of thousands of existing labels on existing specimens.
Firstly, the IMA CNMNC describes minerals, not localities (except for type localities), and they shouldn't have anything to do with describing minerals from localities that are not the type locality for a new species. And they shouldn't be involved in testing specimens!
Secondly, the explanation is given about how to change your labels, it's based on the chemistry and structure.
Thirdly. There's nothing at all wrong with leaving your specimens labelled as 'apophyllite'. if you want to be more accurate, you can get them tested, or check up on mindat for the locality :) What we need to prevent is people trying to guess which apophyllite mineral something is.
Fourthly. Apophyllite was abandoned years ago, we've had Fluorapophyllite and Hydroxylapophyllite for a long as I can remember, there's no real difference :)
6th Aug 2010 00:02 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
I'd suggest deep-reading the recent article:
• Atencio, D., Andrade, M.B., Christy, A.G., Gieré, R., Kartashov, P.M. (2010): The pyrochlore supergroup of minerals: nomenclature. Canadian Mineralogist, 48, 673-698.
It will give anyone interested insight into how mineralogists think and reason, at least the ones specialized in systematics and nomenclature. It doesn't have anything to do with annoying mineral dealers and collectors, that just comes as a bonus. >:D<
cheers
6th Aug 2010 01:57 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
6th Aug 2010 15:41 UTCJim Ferraiolo
Take a look at the IMA Procedures, published in Canadian Mineralogist, vol.36, 913-927 (1998), for requirements for discreditation, and other things mineralogically procedural.
7th Aug 2010 01:20 UTCRock Currier Expert
7th Aug 2010 10:09 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert
all best
7th Aug 2010 14:45 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
7th Aug 2010 15:58 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager
The loss of old root names for species, as many have been changed with chemical suffixes, is that the historical literature becomes increasingly unreadable. The use of names such as Tantalite-(Mn) and Tantalite-(Fe) does not carry with it the awareness factor that Tantalite-(Fe) is disproportionately rare compared with Tantalite-(Mn). Because the tantalite-columbite Group has historically had chemical modifiers, the change is not all that startling, in this example. A change to enstatite-(Mg) and enstatite(Fe) or olivine-(Mg), olivine-(Fe), olivine-(Mn), etc. would be greatly disruptive as the names ferrosilite, fayalite, etc. have powerful informative value. Similarly the plagioclases and many, many hundreds of species would lose recognition value the old names provide. Homogenization in minerals names becomes disruptive when the new names of minerals have subtle differences, such as the suffixes. The IMA committees have been mostly involved with the rarer species which represent soft targets with fewer professional supporters. The real test of whether changing mineral names is all that wise will occur when sphalerite becomes fluorite-(ZnS), as spinel, perovskite, diamond also become fluorites, or when berlinite becomes quartz-(AlPO4) and periclase becomes galena-(MgO).
8th Aug 2010 03:06 UTCRock Currier Expert
The only people who have rules about naming species, I think, are the folks of the American Association of Gem and Mineral societies and if you have been to one of their shows recently and looked at the competitive exhibits where those rules are supposed to apply, I hardly think relaxing their rules would have any meaning or be relevant to the world at large. Perhaps more important are the specimens on public exhibit all over the world. These specimens should probably be labeled with the current IMA mineral names, but in practice, this is nearly impossible. However I would hope that one of the things that are considered in making nomenclature changes would be to try and minimize the relabeling necessary.
8th Aug 2010 15:54 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
9th Aug 2010 00:02 UTCRock Currier Expert
Can the IMA do anything to reduce the amount of irritation caused by its changes? Does it even care about the irritation they cause? Perhaps a few minor changes in the way it makes its changes would go a long way toward reducing this irritation. Perhaps a little more requesting input from other "stake holders" before the changes are finalized?
9th Aug 2010 13:40 UTCJohn Duck
My most serious criticism of the IMA is that their changes are in many cases mere edicts with no new scientific data or basis for the changes; case in point hancockite. My second most serious criticism is that their changes in nomenclature are inconsistent from mineral group to mineral group to the point of arrogance. My third most serious criticism, as pointed out by Van King and others is that the renaming of well-established mineral species breaks the link to historical information and provenance that has always been an integral facet of the science of mineralogy. The mineral names honor those who have gone before and recognize their contributions to science. This heritage must not be lost, but must be protected and defended. Those who would discard the historical provenance and cultural heritage of mineral species do so at their peril because the precedent they set will in a generation be likewise applied to their contributions.
For myself I prefer to maintain the historical provenance and cultural heritage of the mineral species in my collection. Accordingly my hancockite remains hancockite, lepidolite remains lepidolite, betafite remains betafite, etc. Ask yourself is this wrong?
Science by fiat is not science and must be ignored. Publication of a paper does not confer legitimacy, only the scientific community recognizing the tenets of the research/organization as valid can confer legitimacy. Organizations that no longer act responsibly lose their legitimacy. By its actions the IMA is losing its credibility and I believe has overstepped the authority originally granted them to oversee the approval of new mineral species; all existing species are to be grandfathered. This was the contract with the mineral community that allowed the establishment of the IMA. By renaming grandfathered species without the benefit of new scientific data the IMA has breached this covenant.
Also good science does not need an “outreach committee”, as practiced by the IMA, which by its very name and function confers an implied elitism and infers that the mineral community is intellectually or scientifically inferior. Outreach committees are for the purpose of promoting political agendas and not science.
On a further note, I attended the Maine Pegmatite Workshop in Poland, Maine this past June and am happy to report that the fluorescent apatite from the Maine pegmatites is still called manganapatite and not fluorapatite by Maine mineral collectors and academics alike. The fluorescent mineral collectors who were in attendance also agreed that hancockite will remain hancockite since to continue with the epidote-Pb nomenclature would result in further insanity such as allanite being epidote-Ce, etc. You are not alone if you feel that the IMA should be ignored.
9th Aug 2010 16:01 UTCSteven Kuitems Expert
To change the name of HANCOCKITE to epidote-pb is a total disreguard for 1) the historical basis and priority of usage 2) NO new chemical or stuctural analysis 3) a total disreguard to its unique chemistry which includes not only lead but strontium ie. they did NOT carefully review to original documents nor does it appear that they did any new analysis to prove or disprove the original findings!!!!!
Steve.
9th Aug 2010 17:49 UTCSteven Kuitems Expert
It would appear that the IMA needs some practical guidelines for CHANGING exisiting mineral names. This is quite different than discrediting a mineral species. Perhaps when a change is proposed there is a review by commitee with some standards that must be met FIRST before accepting the change. If as you clearly stated there is no chemical or structural analytic basis for a change LEAVE the historicaly prior name intact. It seems that when you look at some of the recent changes there is no justification for which ones are left alone or which ones are changed. The IMA should be able to over-ride the sometimes over-zealous changes which ignore the historical precedent. The recent example of betafite should still stand as a species with the understanding or definition that it is a metamict mineral with great variation in minor chemical components even within very discrete crystals. This approach is different than just saying it is a group name. Perhaps it is time to clear up the definition of metamict mineral species. Their is no reason to change the name unless there is a large chemical composition difference that is found consistently in the betafites from a simgle location that is different from other locations. The metamict minerals might better be understood on the basis of common major chemistry framework and structure with a very porous minor element compositonional variations.
Steve.
9th Aug 2010 18:32 UTCStuart Mills Manager
CHANGES TO EXISTING NOMENCLATURE
General
Changes to existing mineral nomenclature, including the redefinition or discreditation of existing mineral species, the renaming of minerals, or the revalidation of discredited or obsolete mineral names, must be approved by the CNMMN before publication. Toward this end, a suitable proposal should be submitted to the vice-chairman of the CNMMN (see Appendix I). A list of changes in nomenclature approved by the CNMMN since 1987 is given in Appendix II.
Redefinition
Advances in knowledge such as those resulting from structure refinements or new chemical knowledge extending known ranges of solid solution do not, in general, need to be referred to the CNMMN. However, approval of the CNMMN is required if it is proposed to redefine a mineral a) on structural grounds, b) by adding or deleting one or more chemical components regarded as essential to the definition, or c) by proposing compositional limits in a solid-solution series that are not compatible with the existing definition of the 50% rule (or its equivalent in multicomponent systems). In case of doubt, the authors are invited to consult with the vice-chairman of the CNMMN. If a mineral is shown to be a mixture and one of the components is otherwise new, the name should usually be transferred to the new phase. Redefinition of a mineral species requires a review of the literature on the mineral to be redefined, a re-examination of the type specimen (see below), a comparison of the new data with the original, and justification for the redefinition.
Discreditation
A mineral or mineral name may be discredited if it can be shown that the mineral is identical to another one that has priority, or if the name is misleading. Requirements for discrediting a mineral species or name are similar to those for redefinition (above), and have been outlined by Dunn (1990).
Revalidation
A mineral that has been discredited or fallen into disuse may be revalidated if a re-examination shows that the mineral meets the normal criteria for a distinct mineral species or that it is a mixture containing a new mineral species. Requirements for revalidating a mineral species are similar to those for redefinition, as given above.
Type specimens
Wherever possible, the redefinition, discreditation or revalidation of a mineral should be based on a study of type material. If a type specimen exists and if the original description, though faulty, represents a reasonable approximation to material on the specimen, the mineral is to be defined by reference to the type material rather than to the original description. This means that errors in the original description cannot be held to discredit a mineral unless the original description was so grossly inaccurate that, in the words of J.D. Dana (1868), “a recognition of the mineral by means of it is impossible”. If type material cannot be obtained for study, the investigator may propose a neotype to the CNMMN, clearly stating the efforts made to seek the original type-specimen, and providing satisfactory evidence for the identity of the neotype with the original. Both the acceptance of the neotype and approval of the proposal are within the authority of the CNMMN.
Preparation of a nomenclature proposal
A proposal to change mineral nomenclature should include all relevant information, including a summary of the original description of the mineral, a review of subsequent reports, the submission of new data, and recommendations for change. If one or more of the original authors of the mineral to be discredited or redefined are alive, the author of the discreditation or redefinition proposal should write to the original authors asking them to comment on the proposal, and these comments should accompany the submission to the CNMMN. A proposal for a change of nomenclature should be sent to the vice-chairman of the CNMMN, who is authorized to write to the author pointing out possible deficiencies in the proposal and making suggestions for its improvement. The proposal, modified if necessary, is then submitted to members of the CNMMN as a draft proposal, with an invitation for them to comment. Such comments, if any, are forwarded to the authors of the draft proposal, who are asked to respond to the comments, amend the proposal, or withdraw it, as appropriate. If the proposal is not withdrawn, the amended proposal is submitted to the CNMMN membership for a formal vote, together with the comments on the draft proposal and the authors’ responses. The voting procedure is similar to that followed in the case of new-mineral proposals, and at least a two-thirds majority is required to approve such proposals.
9th Aug 2010 18:47 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager
9th Aug 2010 20:41 UTCSteven Kuitems Expert
Now you're really going to confuse it all-Ha!!
But what really bothers me is that even though the epidote paper acknowleges the Strontium ( and manganese) they failed to point out that it was a significant amount and that in all the analysis it was very consistent % and I believe unique to the formula of Franklin, NJ Hancockite as distinct from the base epidote which has niether Pb or Sr in its chemistry and as you give priority to the TYPE specimen material this should weigh heavily on the side of its uniqueness apart from epidote!! I reiterate that NO ONE to date has invalidated the original analysis and therefore "the commitee" should have been able to refuse to accept the change in nomenclature. Not withstanding the historical precedent.
steve.
10th Aug 2010 00:34 UTCJim Ferraiolo
11th Aug 2010 02:05 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
The renaming of hancockite was a different matter altogether, where nothing was discredited, but old valid names were gratuitously renamed just to be didactic, to illustrate relationships within a group. If such actions were carried to their logical conclusion, hundreds of other species would need renaming, with the attendant proliferation of names which the IMA was originally set up to mitigate, not exacerbate. I'm irritated by the inconsistencies (not that the IMA has any reason to be panicked or even mildly bothered by the irritations of amateurs.) Nevertheless, my niigataite is staying niigataite; I'm not changing the label for a few more years, or at least until some consistency is achieved in applyng the rules.
11th Aug 2010 04:10 UTCSteven Kuitems Expert
I think you have very succinctly made the distinction clear on both of the fronts you have mentioned. I still believe perhaps a redefinition is in order for metamict minerals that is practical and useful in properly categorizing these "species" that does not get too rediculous in its variable minor constituents.
Although the guidelines Stuart has referenced are good they are sometimes ignored in the whole re-naming game.
Steve.
1st Aug 2011 23:56 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
And while we're on the subject: This trend I first noticed when Pengzhizhongite was renamed without a new description and without consulting the original author. In fact he was quite horrified when I first told him this when we met in Peking. The IMA rules themselves state that the original author should be consulted when they are still alive, which Yang Guangming is most definitely. As this was not done and there was no rediscription other than splitting it into two polysomes, Penzhizhongite with the appropriate polysome suffix should have precidence. Renaming this particular mineral was particularly egregious considering Peng Zhizhongs's enormous contribution to bothe mineralogy and crystallographyé This one too should be corrected. I raised this issue at Budapest and was assured this would be looked into. I hope it is.
13th Aug 2011 02:21 UTCJeffrey de Fourestier Expert
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