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Field CollectingObtaining permission to visit sites listed on Mindat

10th Aug 2016 21:27 UTCKelly Zytaruk

There are a lot of interesting sites listed on mindat but how do you tell if they are private or open to the public? I don't want to trespass on private property.

I have tried to google many of the sites listed but the only references that I get all point back to mindat.org which has no contact information for the sites. How do you find an owner of a property?

Many of the sites are listed as closed down or abandoned mining sites. In most cases there won't be anyone living on the property to ask permission. How do I find someone to contact?

Thanks

10th Aug 2016 22:01 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

Welcome to what has to be the most fun part about mineral collecting!!;-)

10th Aug 2016 22:05 UTCBob Harman

KELLY, Welcome to Mindat!

I hope you understand that, to make along story short, being in any way shape or form mentioned on this website has nothing whatsoever to do with implied entrance into any collecting site anywhere! I cannot stress that strongly enough!. Each and every collecting site of any type is its own site and permission must be obtained from folks associated with those sites. Many will be noted to be extinct, but for those still existent, just going thru all the steps of finding out who to talk with and then talking with them to gain entrance permission is the way to go.

As far as I know, Mindat has nothing to do with that. CHEERS.....BOB

10th Aug 2016 22:07 UTCSean

You're right that most of the sites listed on Mindat are Private Property. Finding the owners can be really hard at first, but needles to say, getting the knowledge of how to do so gets things a bit easier.

One of the ways to find the properties' owners is to go to the nearest building (like a house or a cottage) and see if they know anyone who owns that land or knows anyone who knows the owner of the property. I learned this through David Joyce and it actually works. I've used this method this year when I was looking for the owner of Turner's Island Mine. Me and my Dad found him and he's gonna take us to the island next year on his boat. By the way, David Joyce owns an online Canadian mineral store. Here's a link, http://www.davidkjoyceminerals.com/

Another way, is to go to the local township's police station to find the owner's contact information.

Sometimes the internet can help, but sometimes (or should I say most of the time), there's no luck on finding the owner. I have found a few (or maybe one) property owner's contact information on Mindat. And that would be the phone number to the owner of Miller Property.

I hope this help, but if you want more information for finding property owners, I can probably help again. However, I think I gave you all the knowledge that I have about this. Also, welcome to Mindat.

10th Aug 2016 22:09 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

Welcome to Mindat Kelly, I can give some ideas and I am sure other members can as well. I would suggest you join a local mineral club if you can. Several regions of Ontario host active clubs-Toronto, Ottawa, Peterborough, Niagara and Kitchener. The benefit is you can attend club trips which my club does about five a year. In many cases these trips also go into areas you would not normally have access to, such as active quarries. You can also network within the club to get information about other site access. I would also attend local mineral shows and chat with the dealers. The Bancroft chamber of Commerce (yes the people who sold Bear Lake) produce a descent mineral collecting guide book with site access information. Some of the Mindat localities do have more detailed collector information you need however to comb through them. Beyond these initial steps you can also find information about land ownership with township offices and the Ministry of Northern Development and Mines has detailed information on land rights mining rights etc with their online claim maps.

Some "door knocking" works as well.

you may find this article of help

http://www.mindat.org/article.php/989/Acessability+of+Sites+in+Southern+Ontario

Andrew

10th Aug 2016 22:24 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Most places in North America (but not entirely all) it is the property owner's responsibility to clearly indicate that they don't want people tramping over their land, by putting up a fence and/or "Keep Out"/"No Trespassing" signs. If I see a mine dump or quarry that does not have either a fence or a sign, I assume it's OK to go pick up rocks.

10th Aug 2016 22:28 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

In the US, governments like to tax land. You can find out about current ownership of private lands in the county courthouses. Sometime there are plat books you can buy for areas that list ownership on maps. For government land (BLM and Forest service) in the west, you can usually find maps that list their ownership. For mining claims, the BLM has online claim maps.

10th Aug 2016 22:57 UTCJim Allen

Many counties in the United States have GIS mapping systems online that will identify property owners. For example, in Pima County, Arizona, where I live (and which, as we all know, is the center of the mineral universe), it's at http://webcms.pima.gov/government/geographic_information_systems/gis_maps/pimamaps.

Elsewhere, a Google search for "_____ county parcel maps" or something similar usually does the trick. These systems will usually tell you who is responsible for paying the property taxes, which is usually also the owner. In some cases, the system might only tell you the tax parcel number, and you'd have to telephone the county assessor or clerk to get the owner's name.

The State of Utah has a statewide GIS system here: http://mapserv.utah.gov/parcels/. The Arizona State Land Department has a similar map online.

Good luck. It takes some patience at first to figure out what information is there, but the data are usually pretty reliable.

10th Aug 2016 23:05 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

This may sound silly but almost every small town has a favorite "hangout" for the "oldtimers" - be it a coffee shop, tavern, or just a "beerjoint" open during the day.

On most hunts my first stop would be a local tavern where the oldtimers (retired ranchers, farmers, miners, etc.) are happy to talk about their neighbors IF you can give a somewhat accurate description of the location AND you buy them a couple of beers as lubricant. Once you have the owner's (or leasee's) name the local phone book is a treasure trove. If you have have Township & Range data or a physical address, the County Tax Office is the place to go - they can lead you to the County Clerk's office who will have Title & Deed transfer records. All this would often add a day to my hunt but the research was fun and usually paid off.

The local hangout technique has found found me a good number of unknown/unnamed prospects in Texas over the years. This is how we found the house & property here in Organ, NM that we have lived in for the last 21 years!!

Don

11th Aug 2016 13:37 UTCDavid K. Joyce Expert

When I was a kid, long before the Internet, I would visit museums and peruse their mineral displays. If I saw a specimen from a locality that I'd like to visit, just like mindat.org, there was no info about the locality, at all, just a name of a mine, claim, town, etc. I would try to find more about it in the various guide books that I'd accumulated. I would go to the area of the locality and, either just go and collect if it seemed open, or ask around for permission. Sometimes I was denied access, sometimes not! It was pretty disappointing to be denied access but that is the way it is sometimes. The best thing that I did was to join clubs. There are people in the clubs who are keen field collectors who "know the ropes" about various spots and who often will take you there or direct you how to, either on club field trips or on your own casual field trips. When out collecting I met other people who knew things that I didn't about localities and who were sometimes willing to get together to take me places. After a while, I became the guy that people called about many localities. Took decades....

I know one fellow who belongs to no clubs and is, essentially, a mineral collecting hermit. He reads old reports and books and often wanders around in the bush sometimes for days looking for old localities that nobody else can find. He is an intense, highly successful field collector. He has collected spectacular specimens. I'm not very good at this technique but just saying...

Anyway, all said, you need to get into the collecting community, do your research and talk to people one way or the other. After a while, you will find that you have visited and collected at lots of localities!

Good luck!

(thanks for the plug Nthingu. :) )

David K Joyce

11th Aug 2016 14:37 UTCMatt Courville

This is all great advice that I wish I came across a few years ago. One thing that I might add to this is that for 'bush-searching' in different areas you might want to let someone at home know the areas on a map in the case that you might not make it back due to any number of reasons (like breaking an ankle, leg, etc..)

I like to bring a basic compass, whistle, and enough water. The whistle is good to scare-off bears or lead someone to you if you fell/broke something. I've found a number of old sites, but I admittedly have also gotten somewhat lost and detoured for an hour or two in the forest as well.

Keep us posted on your finds

Matt

11th Aug 2016 15:33 UTCDana Morong

This is a tough question to answer because permission status varies so much, and can change quickly. One author of an excellent guidebook found that permission status can change between the time he submitted his book and its publication.

Years ago when in a club, I tried (like Little Jack Horner) to be a good little boy and try to find permission status (even though some of the most dominant club members didn’t bother; some even commercially collected without any form of permission at all!). That club was Not helpful in finding permission status (sometimes would send me on a wild goose chase, and sometimes try to get me to find a site, report back to them, then they would go there and ruin it, without invitation, then deny that they went there. I soon found out their game). Sometimes one can find someone honest who will help; there are ways to distinguish the better people from the worst, though I was so dense that it took me a while to figure this out.

One of the most pleasant experiences and landowners I’ve met was the owner of land where a famous site is locally, and after going there several times, I finally tracked down the owner and offered him a specimen, with label, of a rare species found at his mine. He was afraid that I was giving him my only specimen! Apparently I was the only one who had done so for years. I thought that quite a contrast as many had collected there commercially without even asking him.

Another landowner was not so nice. I wanted permission to visit a quartz ledge on his land, and he told me of some group from a nearby town that “camped out” there for days and took everything (I think he thought it worth a fortune), and he wanted to know where and how long was I going to park the car. He asked this repeatedly and was so suspicious that I wondered if I left the car that I might not return to find it stripped and empty! (I now suspect that the local club, which met in that ‘nearby town’ had stripped the place; I distinctly recall the then-president of that club at a meeting saying that he liked to strip a site of everything so that he wouldn’t have to go there again). I never did visit that site, and have heard that someone else now owns it and imagines it to be worth a lot.

There are some who have had a bad experience in the past (with either another collector or just a troublemaker) and are suspicious – but a few are suspicious anyway, sometimes just plain crazy. In such cases, it is actually best to ask them, for then you know what you are dealing with, and it is then safer to politely go away and never return – in contrast to the guy who tries to sneak in and gets shot (collecting lead specimens the uncomfortable way). Also, as a friend once explained, if the guy has something illegal going on in that field or that old quarry, he certainly is not likely to want anyone near! So asking land owners or neighbors can be useful.

One site was particularly interesting (for the finding, not that it had any minerals). I had researched this (a book had gotten it wrong) and found a neighbor who had known Gunnar Bjareby years ago. This neighbor told me what trail to take. Eventually with the help of another old local (who suspected it had been a stock swindle), I found it. No mineralization at all, just a 6x8 ft shaft straight down in solid rock, with the remains of a wire fence around (put up, I later learned, years ago by another old local, who told me). The funny thing about it was that during the searching among neighbors, several who did not own the land seemed to think it was a silver gold mine, and seemed to want it. It is actually less than worthless being a hazard. If I owned a worthless hazardous shaft, I would make a contract with the logging company to use their equipment to haul in a big slab and cap that shaft, Before they could do any logging – that’s the only way it would get done.

When I lived in mid-coast Maine, I once tried to get permission from an out-of-state woman who owned a piece of land where people regularly dirt-biked through and left garbage. I don’t think she realized that some mineral collectors pick up garbage left by others, for she played games with me over the telephone, later calling to say her lawyer said not to enter the property (so everyone else could go there except someone who asked). This ended any enthusiasm I had for calling up out-of-state absentee landowners. I probably would not have done this if (on an adjacent parcel of land) some other collector known for wrecking sites (friends with a famous guy) had not antagonized a neighbor there, who subsequently harrassed an innocent collector, who later found it was not even that guy’s land, etc. So I never went back there, but I had found some nice little specimens from there, have quite a suite of micromounts from there. This land is now being developed for house lots, even though it is just about the most radioactive hill in the region.

It is often difficult to find permission status to a site far away. People don’t know you, you don’t have time (limited vacation) to look up local records, or if working, you only have weekends free when the town or county (records or tax) offices are closed. In this case one has to rely on finding someone in that area that knows and trusts you, is willing to tell you the truth. But this has to be done well ahead of time (mindat messageboard now helps, but only if you give plenty of time). For local sites, and places that you might want to do more than mere surface picking, research into owners is more productive. Just be aware that it may also have its occasional problems: One time when I tried to find a landowner’s name by tax records, a big dumb redneck (also visiting that office) was going on about how suspicious this activity was, and shouldn’t someone do something about it? As he had suspicions on the brain, I wondered how ethical he was!

Sometimes it is best, when one cannot find the owner, to just ask neighbors. If there are houses around, and you find the landowner, he may be so relieved that it is someone decent that he will show the site to you even though otherwise posted (I have had this happen; when I saw the definite signs, I decided to obey them). In other cases, neighbors just like to know that the guy who parked his car there is decent, and not any troublemaker.

One thing not generally mentioned, but which really irritates landowners, is when they block access by parking. When people do this, the owner or user can’t get in or out. So everybody who visits sites that don’t have regular parking areas, remember to Not Block access to any roadway, gate or lane, no matter how overgrown, unless you have clear and express permission to park in that spot. And try not to park where your vehicle is sticking out into a traffic lane, and not on the insides of corners or hills where other drivers cannot see whether there is room to go around safely. If you have to park some ways and walk, it is better to be safe than later sorry. Just be sure not to park where you could get stuck, or where dry leaves could be set afire from the hot catalytic converter of the car (I know there is usually a heat shield, but these can fall off and be found on sides of roads).

11th Aug 2016 18:59 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

Mere absence of a "No Trespassing" sign should not be taken as permission to enter!

Land may be unposted because nobody cares whether you enter or not, or it may be unposted because around there it's generally expected that nobody enters property they don't own unless they are invited. In general, unless private land is posted "Come on in!", I stay out until I've secured proper permission.

12th Aug 2016 01:07 UTCWayne Corwin

Ed

Another absence of a "No Trespassing" sign is often that they were torn down by trespassers.

12th Aug 2016 01:42 UTCKelly Zytaruk

Well...Thank you all for the wonderful advice.

My only regret is that I didn't start doing this earlier. I am leaving Saturday morning for the Sudbury area and then Sunday morning I am off to Thunder Bay. I have 4 days of collecting time in the Thunder Bay area.

Unfortunately most of the places that I have looked at do not have any building nearby (checked the satellite photos with google maps). Being 16 hours away it is difficult for me to make any pre-arrangements with any land-owners or to make contact with club members. Mindat.org is my best resource at present.

Unless someone knows of good places in the Thunder Bay area I guess I will stick mostly to the well established commercial collecting sites (Blue Points, Diamond Willow, Old Bill's). I might see if I can find a door or two to knock on but I won't hold my breath.

I did notice however that the hwy in the Mamainse area is very close to the shore line. This could be a good spot for some investigating.

Mindat did offer a couple of road-cuts in the Rossport area but I won't know if they are picked out or not until I get there.

Thanks,

Kelly

12th Aug 2016 01:46 UTCKelly Zytaruk

As a side note, I am taking my camera and will be taking lots of pictures. I am traveling the route from Huntsville, Ontario though Sudbury, Sault Ste. Marie and then on to Thunder Bay. If anyone has a specific location that they think needs updated pictures please let me know.

I am taking a GPS so if you have specific location instructions or GPS coordinates I might be able to find it.

12th Aug 2016 01:52 UTCDavid K. Joyce Expert

Kelly,

The shoreline around Mamainse Point can be a great place to collect. It is best when the water level in Lake Superior is below average levels. Don't know what they are like now. Check the areas around old mines near the shore and you can find some nice copper and other specimens!

The road cuts at Rossport (really closer to Pays Plat) have lots of fluorite. You will see some nice fluorite in-situ. Might be hard to get a good specimen out but worth a stop.

And I don't think permission is needed at either place!! :)

Maybe someone else can help you with Thunder Bay area? There are some old silver mines around there but I'm not familiar with them.

Best,

David K. Joyce

12th Aug 2016 01:58 UTCRudy Bolona Expert

One things for sure. You never know who's door you're knocking on. I've gotten curious and friendly responses all the way to: " Get the !*#% out of here or I'll call the cops! One time I asked a lady about who owns the land to a certain mine I wanted to visit and she said "Don't go talk to those people, they have guns." So I left. I've been on a 2 year collecting hiatus just because I got tired of chasing people down to get permission. I now will stick to public lands for my collecting. It's a different world now and people are much less trusting of strangers knocking on their doors.

12th Aug 2016 02:40 UTCSean

If you live far away from any mineral club(s), it's still okay to join one. I just recently joined the Mineral Club of Asbestos in Asbestos (actually called that), Quebec and it's far away from me, but at least I have transportation. Also, I can go with them to their excursions (even though I'll barley go to their club meetings) like the upcoming trip to the Jeffrey Mine. When you do get a chance, join a mineral club, they can really help. It's up to you if you wanna join or not.

I read that you went on Google Maps to look for the nearest building. I wouldn't really recommend Google Maps for that. Most locations for mineral collecting tends to be in a forest. Mostly deep inside a forest. You can't really use that feature (which I forgot what it's called) in a forest to look around. You'll probably have to go to the locations themselves when you finally visit the towns. I've tried this before and it's not really the best method of looking around digitally, but at least you can see some spots (like Landmarks) around whatever location that you're looking at.

Anyway, you're welcome and thanks for taking my advice.

David Joyce - You're welcome. As my post mentioned, the method really did work and now, I'm a bit exited to go the Turner's Island Mine next year. I'm glad to find and talk to the owner himself, which I won't mention his name on here because I don't think he wants every mineral collector going near him, yet. I can't blame his little fear after some idiot gave him a lot of craude about the mine. I will say this (the owner of the mine liked what I'm about to say to all of you), if any of my body parts gets decapitated, I'm not going to sue the owner because it's not his fault. If you wanna see some of my pics, I should be posting them up soon. I'm still waiting to get access to post pictures everywhere on Mindat and not just upload them to the forums or the PMs.

12th Aug 2016 03:01 UTCIan Nicastro

In the USA it's the County Recorders Office not the County Courts or Police that have the Assessor Parcel Number (APN) maps for the respective County and the tax payer info that will give you the contact info for who owns private land. Some Counties it's free to pull the owner/taxpayer reports, some it seem that you have to pay to request the info on a parcels owner. The online interactive GIS maps that Counties have that were mentioned above are very useful for looking up the APN for private property... but for federal lands in the USA you need to use the BLM's old fashioned LR2000 database after locating the geographical coordinates off of the BLMs Geocommunicator map tool. And then weirdly I have found cases of active claims that don't show up on the BLMs LR2000 database, that do show up on third party mining claim sites that compile info from county recorder offices, etc. And then you can't even see the exact claim boundaries unless you go to the County Recorder and pay to have a copy of the original mining claim. It took me months to figure out how to use all of this stuff.

12th Aug 2016 03:35 UTCKelly Zytaruk

I am soo excited to go I have been looking through the mindat databases for the past 3 evenings planning my stops :-) until I realized that most of these are probably on private land :-(

David K. Joyce Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Kelly,

> The shoreline around Mamainse Point can be a great

> place to collect. It is best when the water level

> in Lake Superior is below average levels. Don't

> know what they are like now. Check the areas

> around old mines near the shore and you can find

> some nice copper and other specimens!

Are the mines easy to spot? or do I need to look up GPS coordinates on mindat.org. There are a few but some of them appear to be on the other side of the highway away from the lake.

Mamainse Point at 47° 2' 5'' North , 84° 47' 9'' West looks like a marina. Not sure whether I would be welcome there or not.

Just North of Mamainse Point is Mamainse Mine at 47° 3' 25'' North , 84° 45' 51'' West. That looks like it is right on the shore line and should be easy to get to. Looking at the satellite shots from google however don't show much other than barren land. Do you know if there were other mines along the shoreline? Not really sure what I was expecting to see.

There are two more across the road away from the lake at Copper Corp Mine at 47° 1' 14'' North , 84° 45' 3'' West and Copper Creek Mine at 47° 0' 51'' North , 84° 45' 9'' West. I don't know if these are open to the public but the satellite shots of the road in looks like I would need a 4x4 to get in. My car won't be able to make it. :-(

> The road cuts at Rossport (really closer to Pays

> Plat) have lots of fluorite. You will see some

> nice fluorite in-situ. Might be hard to get a good

> specimen out but worth a stop.

Awesome, I heard that there are a few of them; one is easy to find (Sunset) but the others will take more hunting.

Thanks,

Kelly

12th Aug 2016 03:42 UTCKelly Zytaruk

Nthingu Musomba Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you live far away from any mineral club(s),

> it's still okay to join one.

I used to be a member of the Brampton Rock and Mineral Club but they kind-of vanished and no longer exist; lack of new young members.

I just recently joined the Bancroft Gem club (before I heard about Bear Lake closing). I thought the Bancroft Club would be appropriate since I was planning on spending a lot of time at Bear Lake this year. I have made a few contacts through the club and they plan trips with other clubs as well so there is good exposure.

>I'm

> a bit exited to go the Turner's Island Mine next

> year.

I hope to see lots of pictures. Maybe in the future you can organize a club trip if you get on good terms with the owner. Some sites are closed to public but open to club excursions. Maybe he might be open to that sort of arrangement.

12th Aug 2016 21:01 UTCSean

Well, just saying, there's no point on making a club in Ottawa since there's already one. I can, however, make an advice to the person who organizes the trips at the club. But for the Turner's Island Mine, as I've mentioned on my last post, I don't think the owner wants a lot of mineral collectors going near him which is why I'm not gonna mention his name. I don't want people to search him up on the internet.

The Bancroft Club sounds okay. I have a feel that it only goes to nearby locations that are mostly open to the public. Me, I wanna go to new locations like locations that are Private Property and ask I could go in and collect. You're not the first person to ask a question like this. I even asked (kinda a lot of) questions like this one on Mindat.

By the way, what was the Brampton Mineral Club like? Did the club do a lot of things before it got defunct?

30th Aug 2016 02:10 UTCKelly Zytaruk

Yes, the Brampton Club did plan some trips but I think that the membership aged and there were no young members to take up the reigns. They had some very good talks on meeting nights which I especially enjoyed.

30th Aug 2016 03:53 UTCSean

I see. Anyway, how was your trip? Did you find anything?

30th Aug 2016 13:32 UTCJohn Collins

Kelly,

On your way to the Soo from Sudbury (on 17) make sure you stop at the shop of S and S Creations. (46 18 50.0 N, 83 50 48.8 W). They do fabulous stone work. See if you can pick up pieces of the local "delicacies" : puddingstone and Gordon Lake formation (polished are best).

Another interesting stop is a rock outcropping on the north side of Highway 17 in the Desbarats area. It is called Ripple Rock and shows extreme tilting of an ancient ocean bed. The coordinates for your gps are: 46 20 14.5 N, 83 57 14.1 W . There is no collecting here but it is very interesting to marvel at.

Have fun.

John Collins

30th Aug 2016 22:31 UTCKelly Zytaruk

Nthingu Musomba Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I see. Anyway, how was your trip? Did you find

> anything?

Yes I found some wonderful stuff. I still need a few days before I get started cleaning it up (need to catch up at work first :-() and then I will be posting pics to Instagram. You can find me on Instagram by searching for "Kelly Zytaruk".

30th Aug 2016 22:33 UTCKelly Zytaruk

John Collins Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Kelly,

>

> On your way to the Soo from Sudbury (on 17) make

> sure you stop at the shop of S and S Creations.

> (46 18 50.0 N, 83 50 48.8 W). They do fabulous

> stone work. See if you can pick up pieces of the

> local "delicacies" : puddingstone and Gordon Lake

> formation (polished are best).

> Another interesting stop is a rock outcropping on

> the north side of Highway 17 in the Desbarats

> area. It is called Ripple Rock and shows extreme

> tilting of an ancient ocean bed. The coordinates

> for your gps are: 46 20 14.5 N, 83 57 14.1 W .

John, I'm already back in the City but I will try and save those coordinates for my next trip. The Ripple Rock sounds fascinating.

> There is no collecting here but it is very

> interesting to marvel at.

> Have fun.

>

> John Collins

28th Sep 2016 15:36 UTCDimitar Shopov

The unfortunate reality of mineral collecting in North America is that isn't a patch of dirt that someone doesn't claim ownership of, and there is the prevailing cultural ideology that private land is akin to a microstate. The rare times there are "publically" owned state or federal lands, digging, if not entering, is usually expressly prohibited anyways. Rarely, and I do mean RARELY, you find collector sanctuaries like Mt Apatite in Maine or the salt flats of Oklahoma; these, as you might expect, are chock full of people. As outlined in detail in the previous posts, some people have find ways to either work with or against this system, but personally, it has really put me off from even trying to collect on this continent. This is because I've been spoiled by a place where you don't have to deal with the above BS: my home country of Bulgaria. Perhaps one of the only positive effects of the old Soviet regime is a more communal outlook on land. Large swaths of land, particularly any hills or rocky outcrops, are public, and even if they are not, people don't really care as long as you are not messing up crops or the like. Hell, one time I even got permission to collect at an active quarry with machines a few hundred feet from me. The overall culture about mineral collecting is just so different; I usually just end up waiting until I can travel there and go wild.

28th Sep 2016 16:27 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

Dimitar, your view of "North America" is not entirely founded in reality. Yes access to certain lands is more difficult due to government regulations and civil liability issues. I can say that here in Canada their are still plenty of collecting sites public and private. My mineral club is able to conduct six trips a year to various sites including active quarries. There are thousands of acres of crown land in Canada open to collecting. I would also say North America was founded on an important principle of the right to private land ownership and the respect for the rights of those who own the land. Perhaps if more people took these principles to heart other opportunities might open up. It just may take a little more leg works here.

28th Sep 2016 17:07 UTCAmir C. Akhavan Expert

Dimitar, this was in Utah on BLM managed ground. Read the sign.

There were claims in this area, but most was open to collecting.

In the western US there are many places like that, and many opportunities to explore, with a little bit of planning.

28th Sep 2016 17:34 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

No, to be perfectly fair, it's that Dimitar's view of North America is not entirely founded in "your" reality. I can certainly see his opinion as a valid one, given he grew up in a more inclusive and sharing culture. Everyone grows up assuming what is seen and done around them is naturally the "right way" to do things. I assure you, Native Americans see the european immigrants views of land ownership in an even dimmer light, as nothing less than obscene.

“What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him?” ~ Massasoit

Let's not get too political here about what's "right" and "wrong" here, but you have to admit the idea of free public right of way is not an entirely welcome one here in the America's. And no, not everywhere do you see such western values adopted, where simply entering a patch of land that you don't own is a crime in and of itself. The property right principles in our culture does make exploration for and collecting of minerals a rather tedious effort, before you can even get your gear out and your boots on.

Keeping it real.

28th Sep 2016 18:12 UTCDaryl Babcock

In Utah it is the responsibility of the trespasser to know whose land or claim it is. And the landowner has the legal right to shoot trespassers without warning. Claim owners have to wait for you to pick something up before they can shoot. I'd suggest not counting on signs alone to tell you if you are on a claim or private land. No, I haven't heard of people being shot, but I have run into a few claim owners who point guns at you and tell you to leave.

That said, I know a couple of real claim owners and they are more that happy to talk to you about going to their claims. You might have to fork over a few dollars, but it is usually worth it in my experience. My red beryl, bixbyite and holfertite collection is pretty nice, and only 2 pieces out of over 150 came from public lands.

28th Sep 2016 18:20 UTCDoug Schonewald

While a few wild places in the west are available for mineral collecting, those are becoming smaller and smaller. Getting away from known collecting areas and exploring will probably your best bet these days.

Native American Reservations - Off Limits

Nation Parks and National Recreation Areas - Off Limits

State Parks - Off Limits

National Forest/BLM Lands - Open, but increasingly limited access. Over 30% of drivable roads in Montana's NF/BLM lands are closed to vehicle traffic. Idaho NF managers continue to close roads to create 'roadless' areas effectively eliminating collecting and other recreational use by the general public.

Private Property - Increasingly off limits. In truth often due to hazardous collecting practices (undermining trees, digging into road banks creating erosion maintenance problems, digging into creek banks creating erosion problems in the watershed, all things that private owners are fined for or have to mitigate due to Federal Regulations.

Old, abandoned mine dumps - Private property, but increasingly difficult to secure permissions due to liability issues. Also the EPA is constantly assessing these and reclamation efforts are increasing exponentially.

28th Sep 2016 19:19 UTCBob Harman

DIMITAR's view of the Eastern European lands belonging to everyone and, by implication, everyone being allowed to collect on them is almost totally the opposite of the vision of the national parks and state parks in the US belonging to everyone. Here, belonging to all the public means keeping the lands pristine for now and generations to come. It therefore obviously means NO collecting of anything; not wildflowers, not animals, not old artifacts, and no rock collecting. While collecting may seem to be preserving the rocks, future generations will have no rocks to even see and photograph. Unfortunately, many collectors have defaced and scarred the lands with their sloppy collecting habits.

Besides over zealous environmentalists, at least some of the public land closures can only be blamed on some of ourselves. CHEERS.....BOB

28th Sep 2016 19:59 UTCMatt Ciranni

While I admit I am envious of Dimitar's collecting opportunities and the prevailing views of land ownership out there, that by no means implies that I am a supporter of any particular socio-economic system! And I know I am not in a minority here- as lands are increasingly posted "No Trespassing" in the United States, and our opportunities for any type of outdoor recreation disappear (not only rock collecting but even hiking or fishing!) more and more people are changing their view that the US system of private land ownership is something to be envious of.

In the Western United States there is far more public land, and hence more opportunities to collect minerals, than in the Eastern half. I have always felt that many people out in the west take our public lands for granted, and won't realize what they have until the politicians take it away from them (as some have proposed doing.) And I don't like the idea of being accused of "trespassing" merely for walking through a remote forest or mountain range that is far from any civilization- any more than Massasoit and the Native Americans do. With that said, there have been increasing regulations and restrictions on rock collecting on public lands, as others have mentioned. But had Dimitar come out to Montana, Idaho, Nevada or Oregon I think he would have had a more positive experience with collecting in North America.

28th Sep 2016 23:19 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

There are more eastern US sites opening now on a fee collecting basis now. I have talked to several owners of such sites, or potential sites, and asked them to think about their old quarries, etc., as money lying on the ground, the implication being that it would be foolish to not pick it up! Really that is what private property is about, making money from the resources on it (water, soil for crops, minerals, petroleum, solar power, etc.), or keeping others from making it instead of you if you want to leave it natural. Even the

"public" lands in the western US were set aside to assure a supply of such resources (timber, grazing, minerals, etc.) for the common good. My only point being if you want something someone else has, be prepared to pay for it, either directly to the owner, or via taxes. You'd be amazed what will open up when money is offered. If you a going to trespass and steal it, then why would you expect it to be opened?

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