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Fakes & FraudsTibetan Herkimer Diamonds?!?!?! Sounds like a Fat LIE!!
30th Jul 2006 03:22 UTCJeremy Zolan
http://cgi.ebay.com/Herkimer-Diamond-Tibetan-Clear-Quartz-Crystal-Bracelet_W0QQitemZ290012962147QQihZ019QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
30th Jul 2006 04:09 UTCAlan Plante
But, basically, I'm with you: FRAUD! Pure and simple...
Alan
30th Jul 2006 16:47 UTCPaul L. Boyer
30th Jul 2006 17:52 UTCJeff Beckert
30th Jul 2006 18:53 UTCSebastian Große
I wonder what has to be going on in someone's head who believes this /)"=§)(§")$/%
30th Jul 2006 20:13 UTCalfredo
30th Jul 2006 20:55 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
31st Jul 2006 03:13 UTCAlan Plante
KOR!
Alan
31st Jul 2006 04:05 UTCChris Stefano Expert
31st Jul 2006 06:18 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
31st Jul 2006 15:24 UTCAlan Plante
I'll let you in on one of my "deep dark secrets": I watch the judge shows on TV now and then. (Probably more than is good for me... :~} ) To date, I have seen several eBay sellers brought in by unhappy customers for various reasons. And to date I have yet to see an eBay vendor win against the complaintent...
That's just small claims level stuff - but it works if you can locate the perp and drag them into court. Judges are harder to scam than us jaded rockhounds! :~}
Alas, I fear you are right when it comes to criminal level prosecution. The prosecutors can't be bothered with such small potatoes. - It'd take a class-action civil suit with a high scandal profile to get the criminal system off its duff and doing something about it. Maybe they'd take on eBay - but not any of its vendors...
Cheers!
Alan
Al
31st Jul 2006 16:37 UTCJesse Fisher Expert
Concerning Budweiser, the two breweries continue to duke it out in courts around the world. Some countries such as Germany have given preference to the Czech version, some such as the UK allow both, while others such as our home country have sided with the american brewer, forcing the real Budweiser to market its product under a different name.
The name Budweiser referes to a geographical location in the Czech Republic where the beer style originated, similar to the Champagne region of France, known for the creation of fizzy wine. Similar also to Herkimer New York, which produces transparent, doubly terminatred quartz crystals known as "Herkimer Diamonds". I am sure that transparent doubly terminated quartz crystals are found elsewhere, perhaps even in Tibet. Is it appropriate, however, to use the name "Herkimer" to describe specimens that did not originate from Herkimer New York? Personally, I don't think so. Is it worth pursuing the issue of possible misrepresentation or false advertising with e-bay? Depends on how much time one has to waste trying to make a point.
31st Jul 2006 20:56 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Thanks for the update on the Budweiser wars!
Unfortunately, I fear the term "Herkimer diamond" has slowly become a generic term for that style of crystal, and will be as impossible to eradicate as the misuse of the name "aspirin". So many of the ones on sale around the world aren't from Herkimer and, of course, were never diamonds in the first place, so we have a doubly misleading name (so the original Herkimer people hardly have a right to complain!).
Cheers,
Alfredo
1st Aug 2006 22:01 UTCClaus Hedegaard
An additional beer note: The 'Budweiser' question hinges on it being a geographic designation (like Herkimer) and all Budweiser should (say those who believe so) be produced in Budweis (Czech Republic). This follows suit on the (long) European discussion about regional products: Champagne must be produce in Champagne/France (others are sparkling wines), port must be produced in Portugal, feta must be produced in Greece (Danish dairies got in trouble for that), etc. Logically 'Budweiser' must be produced in 'Budweis' (old German name). That one just might stick in the European Union - otherwise champagne, port, feta, ... will fall too.
It gets tricky when we look at pilsner, which is used as a generic term for non-descript, industrial beer in Europe. However, some people - say brewers of Pilsner Urquell (owned by South African Breweries, no less!) - argue that pilsner should be brewed in Pilsen. If Budweiser (Czech) wins, we may soon loose the accepted term for 75% of the world's beer. But, hey, if we have been calling Quartz 'Diamond' for so long time, we deserve no better than being told to mend our way.
Claus
1st Aug 2006 22:32 UTCJesse Fisher Expert
At least the Germans have the courtesy to alter the name somewhat to "Pils". But we're splitting hairs. I think the only really important names for beer are "good" and "bad".
cheers,
Jesse
21st Aug 2006 02:30 UTCAnonymous User
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is one heck of a sleezy marketing ploy! I
> feel sorry for the people who get tricked into
> buying stuff like this and thinking it's better
> because the cheapskate dealer says it's 'Tibetan'-
> what a load.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Herkimer-Diamond-Tibetan-Clear
> -Quartz-Crystal-Bracelet_W0QQitemZ290012962147QQih
> Z019QQcategoryZ102500QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZ
> ViewItem#ebayphotohosting
I find this funny because one of my favorite sellers on eBay (tibetanbeads.com) sometimes lists Herkimer Diamonds. But I think she said they come from somewhere in the eastern US?? She has some listed on her website now also.
It makes me wonder if someone buys their beads from "Tibetanbeads.com" on eBay, do they think all the beads come from Tibet? And then just embellish and embellish to make their stuff sound more important? I sell lots of jewelry at the Anchorage (AK) Saturday market, some of it clearly labeled "Peru" or "Navajo" and I still get people asking if I made it...
http://www.asianbeads.com/shop/customer/search.php?substring=herkimer
21st Aug 2006 03:10 UTCJeremy Zolan
21st Aug 2006 12:51 UTCAymeric Longi
-------------------------------------------------------
> One has to wonder why we don't have a locality for
> double-terminated quartz xls in Tibet listed here
> at Mindat? - I should think that if the monks have
> been mining such a site it would be known...
>
Why not, the Mindat database is very very far from being complete and years old extraction areas/mines are still not listed here.
21st Aug 2006 17:44 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
22nd Aug 2006 00:25 UTCJeremy Zolan
22nd Aug 2006 00:41 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
Sorry that I missed you at the Springfield show. The wife and I were only there on Saturday. I grabbed up my rarities and ran!
Chet
22nd Aug 2006 02:00 UTCJeremy Zolan
22nd Aug 2006 09:28 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
The deposit in New York is so freakin big, I'm guessing that's exactly what the Chinese deposit is like too. In New York the Quartz containing area is like...60km by 30km...Maybe that's why we never get a better description of the Chinese deposit...
On another note, the largest ones I've seen from China are no larger than 2 inches. Has anyone else seen any larger ones? When you get 10-15 feet down in New York you start getting the really large Quartz crystals...5, 6, 7, 8 inches in size. I haven't seen any from China that size.
22nd Aug 2006 20:02 UTCJeremy Zolan
23rd Aug 2006 19:35 UTCAymeric Longi
I have a bunch of them, coming from Balutchistan. In Pakistan it's called "Diamond Quartz", is it an accepted denomination ?
23rd Aug 2006 20:20 UTCJeremy Zolan
24th Aug 2006 03:53 UTCAlan Plante
Regards
Alan
24th Aug 2006 11:13 UTCAymeric Longi
24th Aug 2006 15:54 UTCAlan Plante
Regards
Alan
28th Aug 2006 14:59 UTCJacob Sawyer
The syndicated price of of the overrated NY Herkimers is crazy. Yeah, they're beautiful but hardly worth paying 20 times as much for them. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Jacob
29th Aug 2006 04:19 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
Quartz is quartz is quartz is quartz. No way around it. It's Quartz!
29th Aug 2006 05:17 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
29th Aug 2006 05:23 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
29th Aug 2006 09:17 UTCHarjo Neutkens Manager
Fadenquarz and Gwindel are names that were allready in use with the Strahler (Strahler is the name for someone who looks for crystals in the Alps, the name originated in Switzerland though nowadays the name is in use throughout the Alpine region, the proper Austrian name for those Strahlers actaully being "Stoasuacha", the French used to call them "Cristalier").
About the strange name "elestial Quartz", to me they are Fensterquarz, also an old Strahler name.
Morion is an old name for very dark smoky Quarz.
These names given to these crystals are not names of Quartz varieties (like Citrine, Amethyst, smoky, Prase etc) but apply to the way of growth, specific habit or twinning.
I know there are a lot of freaky names being given to crystals nowadays, but the names I just mentioned are not a joke, they're names that have been in use ever sinds the first people got out into the mountains to look for crystals.
Salut
Harjo
p.s. a Herkimer-diamond should come from New-York, a Mirabeau-diamant should come from that specific region in France, a Schaumburger-Diamant should come from that region of Germany, they're all the same kind of thing, very clear and lustrus double-terminated Quartz crystals i.e. these names are not generic ones, they are of a geographic nature, so they should be used as such, an "a-diamond" should come from "a", a "b-diamond" should come from "b", a "c-diamond" from "c" etc......
29th Aug 2006 10:02 UTCChris Mavris Manager
the quartzes are dfinitely not italian.
why i can say that?simple!a bracelet with italian herkimers would cost at least 200$ :D
2nd Jun 2012 22:22 UTCJaelene Morris
3rd Jun 2012 00:12 UTCsteven garza
Your friend, Steve
3rd Jun 2012 00:43 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
3rd Jun 2012 00:45 UTCVolkmar Stingl
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jeremy: do you have a ref. for this Chinese
> deposit?
Hello Uwe,
the location is already listed on mindat: Jinkouhe, Leshan Pref., Sichuan, China
Volkmar
wow! I just recognized, how late I am with my comment! I should have had a look at the date....
4th Jun 2012 17:47 UTCOwen Lewis
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry to have just seen your msg., just a LOT
> late; but, the best way to tell REAL Herks from
> ALL other "Herks" is to check if they have
> striations. No striations; they're from NY.
> Tibetan, Chinese, Mexican, French, German.... they
> ALL have striations. Only some of the calcite
> embedded Herks from Fonda have some WEAK
> striations. If you want to know more, send me an
> E-ml at stevegarzain@aol.com.
>
> Your friend, Steve
Are you sure?
I have four pyramidally bi-terminated small Rock Crystals in my personal collection, none of which was bought at the inflated price of 'Herkimer from Herkimer' and two of which (both hydrocarbon included) are from Baluchistan.
Only two are mildly striated, one from Baluchistan and one other. I believe that the one other is probably of synthetic origin (bought retail for GBP 3 for study). I made that tentative attribution not simply on the basis of the rock-bottom retail price in a local store but on the present of striations normal to the C axis (rapidly alternating crystal forms during growth) and also the detection of a just a few microscopic bubbles (not negative crystals) within the specimen, both being features that have been reported as sometimes occurring during synthesis. This specimen, unlike any of the other three, is also clean of any other inclusions at up to x65 magnification.
If you have evidence of Herkimer County being the only source of unstriated double-terminated Rock Crystals (and that it also yields some specimens with bi- and tri-phasic hydroocarbon inclusions, I should be grateful to know about it.
Owen
4th Jun 2012 20:50 UTCWayne Corwin
I don't think they mind stealing the location name "Tiebet" ;-)
4th Jun 2012 22:21 UTCJennifer Shipley
It is all about generating traffic to your site. If you have "Tibetan" in the title, then most likely those looking for quartz mined in Herkimer will not bother clicking. If you just use "Tibetan Diamonds" then you get people who are looking for diamonds and a very high bounce rate. "Tibetan Double Terminated Quartz Crystal" is too long (40 Characters) for SEO which focuses on the first 30 Characters. "Tibetan Herkimer Diamond" is 24 character, therefore a great title. Then you can put in things like "Black Phantom" or "Double Terminated Quartz Crystal" or "Himalayan"... which people can see a good portion in their google search results.
Mindat is an awesome database, but it is not complete. It is not rational to assume that if it's not on mindat, that it doesn't exist. The Himilayan Mountains are an enormous virgin area still unviolated by heavy machinery and for all we know is rich with mineral specimens. It is not even remotely sane to assume that there are no double terminated quartz specimens coming from there. They are found all over the world, including areas in China.
And do you think that the sherpas and monks and the average people in Tibet spend a lot of time on the internet???? That is absurd. It is a third world country. People live a simpler, purer way (better if you ask me) - they don't spend all their time tweaking their myspace profiles, tweeting, updating their fb status and perusing internet forums, so it is logical to assume that there are a lot of mineral specimens found in the Himalayas that us internet junkies don't know about.
5th Jun 2012 23:55 UTCsteven garza
The better question, is, have YOU any other localities that report not having striation? As this is nearly a universal attribute to quartz xls (except those that are beta), that would be something that would QUICKLY be reported. I don't say that there aren't some localities that RARELY produce a striationless quartz xl or 2; but, producing more than a handful is something else. From Middleville, eastward on over to about Lasalleville, this is the normal situation for the Herks, large or small; that's QUITE a large area of occurrance to display such an unusual property. That also makes it a pretty definative one for location ID.
Another property, which I LOVE to show people, is, though the xls look SO UTTERLY CLEAR, they will cast a darker shadow than other clear quartzes, of the same thickness; everyone is always amazed by this.
Your friend, Steve
6th Jun 2012 00:58 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
13th Jun 2012 01:40 UTCJennifer Shipley
13th Jun 2012 02:50 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
14th Jun 2012 02:20 UTCJennifer Shipley
HOWEVER, most stones I've purchased look a have fine lines, black spots and are a little longer. Can you give me some sort of idea of how much longer alpine-type are? I'd like to know if I have been duped. Do you know of a collection of photos of Tibetan dt's? And how possible are stubbier Tibetan dt's??? Any info is helpful. I've done so much research in the last day I've gotten a headache. :(
Thank you.
15th Jun 2012 01:20 UTCDean Allum Expert
On this site we say that beauty and value are in the eye of the beholder.
So no, you have not been 'duped'.... that is, unless you spent more than $12 on the doubly terminated quartz shown in the picture. You could obtain these for that amount at any rock show.
Regards,
Dean Allum
15th Jun 2012 02:24 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
15th Jun 2012 10:04 UTCAndy Stucki (2)
I know this is about minerals and not culture/religion, yet: The Jinkouhe area is well within the "Eastern Tibetan" cultural area. Culturally, the Tibetans here follow a different branch of Buddhism called "Bon" (some call it pre-Buddhist, some look at it as being one of two types of Tibetan Buddhism) so it's correct to call this region "Tibetan". Therefore, calling these quartzes "Tibetan" is - besides being VERY, VERY marketable - not all wrong.
From what I know, formation of these quartzes is very much like that of the Herkimers, only the host rock is younger (late Permian, I think).
Andy
15th Jun 2012 11:54 UTCJennifer Shipley
Andy, I see now how Sichuan boarders Tibet Autonomous Region, though whether Jinkhouhe could be considered Tibet???? I wouldn't. However, I just read that Tibet is the 2nd largest Province in China (over 460,000 sq miles). Not only are the Himalayas in the South, but there are many mountain ranges, including Kunlun, Tanggula, Gangdise, Hengduan and Nyainqentanglha Ranges.
Now I'm really curious to know if any of Tibet's other mountains have the right conditions to produce "Herk" shaped quartz. Please share your thoughts. :)
15th Jun 2012 13:00 UTCAlan Barnes (2)
Alan
16th Jun 2012 01:16 UTCJennifer Shipley
I use this title because people who are looking specifically for what I sell are using these terms when searching google or etsy. The way to get traffic is to use the search terms that people use. Whether they are technically correct terms or not is something we cannot control. For example, it is legal to sell heat-treated amethyst as "citrine" even though it is NOT citrine. There are countless items online listed as "natural citrine" and they are clearly NOT "natural" or "citrine". Sellers in the US are supposed to disclose that it is "treated" and when they don't, THAT is fraud (and often they don't.) But (sadly) most "citrine" sold is not actually citrine and that is perfectly legal. :-(
I am more concerned with whether they are actually Tibetan. For anybody using that search term, (potentially my customers) this is important to them, therefore it is important to me. Does anybody have information on any dt quartz coming from other locations (besides the Himalayas) in Tibet? Even just providing mining locations so I can research them is helpful.
16th Jun 2012 04:50 UTCStephanie Martin
A very over-simplistic short answer:
The environment and host rock in which the Herkimer crystals grew are sedimentary in nature and pockets that formed allowed for the eventual slow uninhibited growth of crystals from solution. This would be unlikely in metamorphic environments such as mountains.
Hope this helps.
regards,
stephanie :-)
16th Jun 2012 17:14 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert
Just because a customer base uses the wrong terminology doesn't mean that the vendor should. The vendor is often seen, whether correctly or not, as an authority of sorts, or at least as one who can be relied on to provide factual, if limited information. So to say something like "whether potential customers using are technically correct terms or not is something we cannot control" is a bit of a cop out in my eyes. We most certainly can control what we issue forth onto the world around us, and in fact it is a matter of personal integrity to many whether or not we do so.
However, we also have our livelihoods to consider, and for vendors this is a function of customers considering the vendor a go-to source for their needs. Perhaps the decision to use technically correct terms in describing wares in the face of losing an customer who does not know enough to for what they want represents a very high form of control.
John
17th Jun 2012 01:33 UTCJennifer Shipley
Let me illustrate this further: If somebody goes into a stone shop or mineral expo, they've already walked in the door. Items don't need search terms and detailed listings. They can SEE the items and TALK to the dealer. It's a completely different situation when you are selling online, requiring a different strategy. You have to get people to walk in your INVISIBLE door. You have to use the words that they are most likely to use, in order to make your door visible to them. Then you can explain to them in the listing, everything they would want to know about the item. I hope this makes more sense to you, John. :-) If you would like to see an example of how I have placed these tags in my listing, go to: https://www.etsy.com/listing/75939462/phantom-quartz-crystal-pendant-tibetan Please feel free to share your thoughts.
And on a really annoying side note, for some reason google products doesn't find me when searching "Tibetan Double Terminated Quartz Pendant", even though this is littered throughout my listings and at the beginning of my titles, but "Tibetan Herkimer Diamond" (only found at the end of my title and once in the listings) puts me right at the top. ??? Oh hey, but if you add Phantom to the former, I'm the only one. :)
17th Jun 2012 04:09 UTCJennifer Shipley
Only about 1/3 of Tibetans live in what China's government has given the name, Tibetan Autonomous Region (TAR), and what our maps call "Tibet." The Tibetan people, however, see things differently. TAR is only half of what is traditionally Tibetan land, an enormous expanse of land that actually comprises about 1/4 of China's entire land mass. http://www.tibetnetwork.org/tibet-at-a-glance/ Be sure to also read the fine print underneath the map. Most of this is uninhabited, unexplored, undeveloped, and un-mined. Degree of exploration map.
Here is what we do know about this vast expanse: We know there are sedimentary basins. Here's a map to illustrate:
China Sedementary Map
This is the article accompanying the map: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0031018205001203 Scroll down to figure 3 for the basin names.
Now these maps show sedimentary basins along the Himalayan Range: Himalayan Sedimentary Basins, and More Himalayan Sedimentary Rock
The edges of India and Tibet were originally coastal so many fossils and sedimentary rock can be found in the Himalayas. http://work.geobiology.cn/ebook/Permian%20Stratigraphy%20Environments%20and%20Resources/10%20Permian%20Basin%20and%20its%20Gondwanan%20Sediments%20in%20Central%20Xizang%20%28Tibet%29%20and%20Himalayas%EF%BC%88LIU%20GUANGHUA%EF%BC%89.pdf This link is to an extensive study on a small area in the Himalayas. Though it is long, there are some great graphs that show what types of rocks were in what area and what fossils can be found. There is even some dolomite.
This map shows dolomite as well: Himalayan Rock
And this is just really interesting. A fellow snapped some photos of the Qaidam Basin, one of which he refers to "Quartz-like material." He says, "The whole area is full of shiny mineral all over the ground." It's also worth your time to browse his whole gallery, just for kicks. http://www.pbase.com/phiw/image/68952167
Also in the Qaidam Basin are supposedly some strange "metal pipes" that supposedly were analyzed by Chinese scientists (who apparently aren't very good at math. ) http://rabbithole2.com/presentation/ancient/ancient_artifacts_that_challenge_modern_archaeology.htm Hmmm. Let's see: 30% ferric oxide + a large amount of silicon dioxide and calcium oxide + 80% unidentifiable material = A whole lot of BS. But the photo is cool anyway.
So back to the topic at hand, can Herk shaped dt's be found in Tibet? Even when we only look at TAR, aren't there certainly enough sedimentary landscapes and uncharted land for dt's to be highly possible? Even along the outskirts of the Himalayas there is a lot of sediment and even dolomite. But when you ponder what the people consider to comprise Tibet, like:
Ganzi Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Ngawa Tibetan and Qiang Autonomous Prefecture,
Yushu Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Diqing Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Hainan Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture,
Dêqên Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture...
...then now I say, "Yes."
17th Jun 2012 05:02 UTCStephanie Martin
I don't know the geology of the area intimately, so this is a generalization.
I do not doubt there are sedimentary basins in the expanded idea of "cultural" Tibet, which includes the Jinkouhe area in your analysis.
Metamorphism would change the rock and recrystalization would result, so if the basins are outside the metamorphic zones it is much more possible to have double terminated quartz. The key is that the crystals must have had uninhibited growth opportunity in order to form double terminations, and this is unlikely in the conditions of metamorphism.
If you are going to include "cultural" Tibetan areas in your definition of what constitutes Tibet to serve your purpose, then you have reasoned yourself into the justification to call these Tibetan, although to me it is still a big stretch.
Good luck with your artistic endeavors.
regards,
stephanie :-)
17th Jun 2012 08:08 UTCJohn M Stolz Expert
Your response simply reinforces the last point I made in my point--what you state in your descriptions is very much in your control. I'm afraid that your argument can only be categorized in my mind as "the appeal to ignorance" type, meaning that whatever has not been proved false must perforce be true, and vice versa. This is the argument that took you down what must have been a lengthy digressionary search into the possibility for sedimentary formations in Tibet so that you could argue that a herkimer-type quartz could form there, even if it hasn't been found yet.
I also note that you use another tactic commonly known as "arguing from authority". That is to say that scientific terms and explanations interspersed in your sales literature sets you up as an authority on a subject that then tends to validate other non-scientific statements relating to things like crystal cleansing and healing.
What I can say in support is that your jewelry is attractive, and I think you're a good artist.
Regards, John
18th Jun 2012 19:41 UTCTom Tucker
18th Jun 2012 20:53 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
I'm ignorant of the geology of that part of the country, so I hope someone with more knowledge than I steps in to describe it, but I suspect that from a geological perspective those rocks might be part of the "Appalachian Basin" rather than the true Appalachian "mountains", but I'm merely quibbling... Closer to the actual ancient continental collision front, things got quite strongly metamorphosed.
18th Jun 2012 22:23 UTCAmanda Hawkins
There are also similar small double terminated quartz crystals from Afghanistan with yellow petroleum inclusions as well as carbon particles. They often have floating bubbles (and carbon bits) - amazing under an eye glass :-)
18th Jun 2012 22:32 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
19th Jun 2012 01:40 UTCTom Tucker
Yes, all these localities are in the sedimentary Appalachian Basin, in carbonate rocks of Cambrian to Silurian age. Crystalline rocks of the "Appalachian Mountains" are represented by the Blue Ridge and Great Smoky Mountains in the southern areas, and by most of New England in the north. The Blue Ridge has been thrust to the west up to 150 miles in the last of the Appalachian orogenies, stopping less than a mile from overriding the quartz crystals at Front Royal. They have the power!
20th Jun 2012 17:38 UTCAmanda Hawkins
26th Aug 2012 04:16 UTCAnonymous User
26th Aug 2012 14:44 UTCOwen Lewis
Only a beginner would fail to distinguish correctly a cut and polished specimen from a natural under just x10 mag - or even none.
There is a place for the polishing/part polishing of specimens where the interest is, either or both, to examine microscopically the interior features of a crystal or observe or measure accurately some of its optical characteristics - or even simply its colour.
Such treatment of crystals is not only a commonplace in research but is also a frequent precursor to offering some items fro sale (e.g. Jadeite boulders before auction).
If dealers' labels are a be all and end all for some, so be it. It's a very human trait - as a several thousand year record of trading in and exhibition of Saints' relics and similar shows. Chaqu'un à son gôut. For others, it is more important to understand, in detail, what they have in their hand than to have a (his)story as to where it came from. Of course, to know all and with 100% certainty of accuracy would be very nice - but that is a goal (IMHO) not commonly achieved.
Owen
26th Aug 2012 15:03 UTCSpencer Ivan Mather
26th Aug 2012 20:07 UTCOwen Lewis
Is it not more generally useful to label an item according to its properties rather than strictly by it's place of origin? When a place name should be used as a type label is debatable but, whatever, it occasionally happens and labels, once applied, tend to stick.
IMHO there is much less reason for shout 'fraud!' because a double-terminated Rock Crystal from any place in the world is called 'Herkimer' than that a similar stone dug up in Herkimer NY USA is named as a Diamond! Mote, beam, eye, plucking ;-) Better still, lets have another beer....
28th Aug 2012 19:38 UTCAnonymous User
28th Aug 2012 23:42 UTCOwen Lewis
Yes, I agree that 'New Age' is the bulk market. This does not appeal to you (nor to me) but others who no longer can believe in God but feel the need to believe in *something* are often attracted to this quackery. So be it let them pass in peace.
Of course, when they buy glass it *might* truly be Quartz also. Pure SiO2 that has been vitrified on cooling rather than possessing a crystalline lattice structure? ;-)
I have two cut and polished specimens. The first I bought as such because it was relatively cheap and allowed me to examine with great clarity the several acicular Rutile inclusions that it contained. The other was a small Indicolite specimen with a 'closed C' that was one of the first stones I bought. I sent this away to have the bronen end cut and polished to match the natural pinacoidal termination at the opposite end and also to have a flat cut and polished on one of the trigonal sides, exactly parallel to the C axis. This enables me to demonstrate some interesting anomalies in the optic character of this biaxial stone. It has also (and quite unexpectedly) slowly changed its colour following this treatment (a year ago) and is now almost black. The reason for this I am still researching. It's interesting stuff, Tourmaline.
I expect, occasionally, to have other stones cut in future for the purpose of extending my learning, as do some others. It may not be a 'nice' thing to do but it's hard to experience the anatomy of a body without dissecting some corpses.
29th Aug 2012 06:20 UTCAnonymous User
7th Apr 2015 02:57 UTCPinchpotter
People are calling crystals that are the shape of Herkimer diamonds "herkimers" partly because that is the only name that describes that particular shape. Some geologists do it. The stones that are being called Pakimers are from Asia, and I feel that it is an ethical attempt to identify the stones. However, there are many people use the word "herkimer" as an unethical marketing tool.
I'm a rock hound who has had some training in mineralogy - I've been tripping over quartz crystals all my life (literally!) Because of the way I find them people decided I know all about the "woo woo" of stones and started pleading with me to teach crystal classes. I can read the books and I could recite that stuff but didn't want to. I finally decided to have a group work with three quartz crystals: clear, smoky, and amethyst. I did a guided meditation then had them hold the stones and write down whatever came to mind. To my complete and utter astonishment most of the people in the group said similar things about each crystal. I was dumb-founded! I didn't believe in any of it. I've continued to facilitate classes the same way with the same results and have learned to google the symbols people come up with. They usually have similar meanings. I still call it "woo woo".
The first time I deliberately went to a mine to find quartz crystals, it turned out that it had been mined for crystals for the crystal radios used during WW2. The radios didn't work without the crystals.
I think that the whole "Lemurian" crystal thing is marketing.
7th Apr 2015 05:38 UTCRanger Dave
8th Apr 2015 00:39 UTCJohn Oostenryk
Yes- The Lemurian "backstory for quartz habits" thing is ridiculous! There is NO "Lemuria"~ it was a fictional place popularized by Blavatsky in late 1800's.
Total hogwash and thus smacks of serious (self)deception and I DO find THAT disconcerting. Basing anything on a Lie is baddd news. In that case belief does not = reality!
Smoothing my annoyance//Flip side of coin to ME, though:
I suppose if people want to create a "new" religion/belief system and it IS peaceful, I have little issue with that.
Certainly have no need to impose my facts on their feelings unbidden.
I am polite in my refutation of "not being into that" if queried. I have never had someone 'jump' me for NOT being into it. Can't fault that!
Conduct otherwise starts at improper and rapidly approaches being an a&&%ole.
Before I stray too far- thus the reason for separation of gov and religion... Gov being imposition and religion intended as voluntary.
As to the metaphys 'names' for quartz habits, I find their naming tangentially 'useful'. I can't stop it or change it, but at least the terms encourage accurate communication. When encountered I go home and look up the proper terms. So a positive learning impetus is good:)-
ALSO:
Have to ask, this seemed glaring from your description-maybe your description wasn't complete? The group has similar responses because they have similar beliefs prior? Take a group of completely unconnected people. (no prior topic interest or reading on subject) See what THEY say. Could even be some control group issues even from the simple societal factors of color or maybe dif size of pieces? big small dark light = good bad powerful etc. Just curious- interesting stuff.
Best regards,
~JO:)
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 19, 2024 11:38:10