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Fakes & FraudsMarketing Ploy - Azurite from Laos

3rd Apr 2018 06:21 UTCMichael J Stott

Hi Mindat community,


After being contact by several collectors for information over the past few weeks, I would like to help make people aware of a current prevalent scam in the labeling of azurite from Laos. Some eBay sellers are providing the full location of Khanong Pit, Sepon Mine but some sellers are simply writing Laos as the source. I currently work at Sepon as a geologist, and have done so for over 10 years now. No specimen grade azurite has been produced in Khanong Pit since mid 2015, most of the ore currently being mined from the two small cutbacks is primary (sulphide) ore, not oxide minerals.


I am not claiming that the azurite is fake, simply that the claimed location is incorrect. The azurite is most likely from China, and virtually all the sellers that I have seen with this material are Chinese.


In talking to one seller via email this week, they stated the specimens they had for sale were mined in 2018 and that there are many Chinese workers at Sepon who then sell specimens to Chinese traders. The company I work for only employs Lao workers for jobs such as machinery operators with expats only being employed in specialist roles. There may be one or two Chinese employees on site, but certainly not many. The other copper miner in Laos (PanAust) mines sulphidic ore (chalcopyrite and bornite) and they do not produce any specimens. Being a keen collector, I have many eyes and ears out locally and I am sure that I would have found out if there was any other location producing specimens in Laos.


Buyer beware :)

3rd Apr 2018 11:17 UTCMario Pauwels

Thank you very much for your 'inside' information about these 'Laos' Azurites. Since a few years already there are those rumors that Laos as locality was incorrect for most of the offered specimens. It was assumed that by far most of these specimens came from China, but apparently nobody could confirm this. So it is good to have this confirmed by someone who works at the mine for such a long time.


Best regards,

Mario Pauwels

3rd Apr 2018 12:03 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Khanong Pit page updated.

3rd Apr 2018 15:37 UTCAntoine Barthélemy Expert

Thank you Michael for this interesting information!


Is there a way to distinguish between the Laotian azurites and the Chinese ones? And would you have a name for the Chinese locality currently producing these azurites?

9th Apr 2018 09:20 UTCMichael J Stott

Good questions Antoine,


Firstly, sorry I have am certainly not brave enough to hazard a guess as to the Chinese locations. I suspect there are several actually, as I have seen quite a few different styles of matrix.


As for identifying Sepon specimens, I can only offer a few guidelines:


- I have never seen a Sepon specimen with quartz in the matrix. The matrix at Sepon is usually goethite/limonite/ironstone, always something rich in iron.

- Blocky, square section crystals like those usually found at Tsumeb are very rare at Sepon. Sepon azurites are mostly bladed or tabular.

- I have only seen a few specimens at Sepon where the azurite could be described as earthy or had dull lustre.

- Most of the larger (>1cm) crystals at Sepon are internally pseudomorphed by malachite, with the outer layer (possibly a later generation) of fresh azurite being less than 0.5mm thick. The Chinese material often has an out coating of azurite that is 1 - 2mm thick.



eBay seller cn-6186 has a lot currently listed and I do not believe that a single one they are selling is from Khanong pit. Seller 'hongrunstone' is also selling material that I very highly doubt is from Sepon.


The above are guidelines only, there are likely to be exceptions to the rule, and some are impossible to say for sure.

29th Aug 2019 06:40 UTCMichael Meder

00171810016017337722797.jpg
Hi Michael,
I am momentarily in Pakse, Laos and came across some azurites and malachites, supposedly from Laos. If I am lucky, I can visit a warehouse filled with rocks, but for now I have only a few specimens for reference. This azurite is about 12 x  10 x 5 cm, mostly bladed crystals , many of them damaged. Some small sprays of silky malachite strains or hugged away between the azurite. The orange colored material looks like siderite and on one corner there is a transparent colorless material. Thanks for any comment on this issue. Michel

11th May 2020 14:42 UTCChebeleu Ciprian

Hi Michael,

Got around 16 Azurite specimen from ebay as from Laos. If zou have time and can help with this, if they are from Laos or not? 
It's like 5th day searching for information about this. 
I can show them, but to make it easy, got them from this seller

If You want me to show them I can send a link to the collection or upload them here.

5th Jun 2020 07:22 UTCMike Stott

Hi Chebeleu,  I can't see any azurite on the link you sent, please feel free to email me some photos to geologistmike@gmail.com.  As a very generalised warning however, I would be very wary of buying Lao azurite from Chinese dealers.

5th Jun 2020 09:25 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert

I presume these are the azurites Chebeleu was referring trying to link to. Listed as Laos/China/Anhui...

19th Jul 2020 17:23 UTCUdo Behner

i found a reference in gmelins handbook to a region called Tranninh in Laos with said complex copper and  tin deposits in heavily folded rock the reference is in original in french so i did not retrieve it yet as my language skills are limited

20th Jul 2020 06:34 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Hi Udo,
Interesting!
Please send me the text by PM, and I will translate for you.
Or post the text here...
Cheers, Herwig
ACAM & MKA (Belgium)

29th Aug 2019 15:28 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

02902820016017337728824.jpg
Hi Michael,
I am sure you realized by posting the thread, very glad you did, you would get questions about specimens in peoples collections.
We purchased the piece here a while back but the receipt didn't have a date on it, but I looked at the piece under the microscope to see if the criteria you mentioned were there.
Platy crystals, no quartz, iron oxides matrix.  Seemed to fit and would be happy for any opinion you may have.   I will add a couple of other photos, side and back of the piece.
Thank you in advance.
Rolf

4th Sep 2019 07:34 UTCMichael J Stott

Hi Rolf,
I certainly agree that this does indeed look like Sepon material, definitely the right matrix.  Not guaranteed of course, but highly likely to be correct.

regards,
Mike

20th Feb 2020 04:11 UTCStephen C. Blyskal Expert

Rolf, this specimen looks very much like the ones I just recently acquired in Tucson from Crystal Allies, an LA dealer online doing their first Tucson Show.

29th Aug 2019 15:30 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

08909730016017337729012.jpg
Back of the same specimen.

29th Aug 2019 15:31 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

05701960016017337739469.jpg
Last photo is of the side of the piece with different habits of the malachite.
Such a shame about so many being from China.  We have a lot of the Chinese azurites as well but so far I have not done any comparisons.

29th Aug 2019 15:33 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

One thing I wanted to post was size here.  In past the uploaded photo used to have my information on it but in the new format it does not so have to remember to put size, here it is 8 by 6 cm.

4th Sep 2019 07:35 UTCMichael J Stott

No alarm bells ringing here Rolf!

25th Feb 2020 15:34 UTCnyssa syratov

wait... am i missing something?......... how do all of you always take such beautiful photos!

30th Aug 2019 22:16 UTCGareth Evans

Azurite is one of my favourites, and I have many in my collection. I too noticed the similarity between some Azurites marked as Laos, when in fact they looked a lot like my Azurites from China.Any tell-tale signs we should look for?

30th Aug 2019 23:12 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Gareth, 
Michael Stott did give a lot of hints in his first post and I checked them on my piece and had found no quartz and the matrix being iron oxides so hoped it was from Laos.  Check his first post here.

20th Feb 2020 04:09 UTCStephen C. Blyskal Expert

I was recently at the Tucson shows and at the Kino Show stumbled onto a first time dealer, Crystal Allies, in one of the big tents among the low grade cabs and bead dealers.  They had interesting azurite and malachite specimens from "Laos", specifically Sepon Mine.  They have all the characteristics of the specimens pictured above.  The Chinese-American men working the booth told me production was finished at Sepon Mine and that artisanal miners were working it now with hand tools.  Can't comment on the accuracy of that statement.  Once I have photos I will post them.  Definitely no quartz and a limonite gossan base for the copper carbonates.

5th Jun 2020 07:31 UTCMike Stott

Hi Stephen, 
There are a few 'artisinal miners' but they are certainly not after specimens.  They dig with very crude tools and anything green gets thrown in a large bag so would be instantly damaged.  The locals can sell the malachite to various smelters for about $3/kg which can make a decent amount of cash by Lao standards.  Our security team seizes a lot of malachite and returns it to my team to process; I have never seen any azurite returned by security.  The locals seem to be unaware that azurite can also be smelted so they simply do not pick it up.  
I also saw the Crystal Allies table at the Kino show this year and just smiled and walked away, it was certainly not Sepon material.  I've given up talking to dealers to try to convince them about this, it is like talking to a brick wall 99% of the time.

19th Nov 2020 17:20 UTCStephen C. Blyskal Expert

Mike,
If I want to label these specimens correctly, what location should I give?  My customers won't care whether they are from China or Laos.  They are attracted to the bright colors and reasonable prices for cabinet size specimens.

8th Jun 2020 03:35 UTCRod Martin Expert

Interesting post and discussion Mike. I was asked to run some XRD id's on some of the early Sepon cores in the early 90's but of course never got to keep any of the very attractive material. Later on in the early 2000's I was passing through Savannakhet and stopped in to check the Dinosaur Museum. The Curator was very kind in allowing me to inspect material that was in storage drawers there and amongst the bones was a number of Sepon cores from the oxidised zone. Probably 4 or 5 years later I revisited and all the cores were gone as were the bones!

8th Jun 2020 05:46 UTCAndrew Tuma Expert

Hi Michael,
Many thanks for the informative and ongoing comments to allow verification of the minerals from your place of undoubted expertise.

If I may stray a little. I was provided with a cuprite specimen from Sepon, (with a couple of nice Azurites) as part of a wholesale trade as per the photos.
0AJ-8PV


What is the botryoidal sulfide matrix? and
What is the pale blue (Chalcedony?) coating?


19th Jul 2020 09:24 UTCMike Stott

Hi Andrew,

Chrysocolla is possibly as we occasionally get very thin coatings but no chrysocolla over 1mm thick has been found however I think this piece is more likely to be allophane.  The base botryoids are goethite or goethite/hematite.  The gemmiest cuprite always formed on this dark matrix leading to great contrast.  

20th Jul 2020 10:42 UTCAndrew Tuma Expert

Hey Mike, Many thanks for your clarification and the interest to answer my questions. All the best in your endeavors.
Cheers Andrew

8th Jun 2020 06:36 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Andrew
Just a suggestion on posting links, it’s easiest to copy and paste the photos weblink from the header, else we have to go through a few hoops finding the MinID search page. Botryoidal pyrite maybe?

24th Oct 2020 23:14 UTCO. Looker

Many thanks for this interesting information about azurite!
What are your thoughts about this malachite?
Is  Khanong the actual locality?


29th Nov 2020 09:29 UTCJean-Louis O.

I'm very interested in the answer to this question.

Many localities have been suggested fot those malachites :

- Liufengshan Mine, Guichi District, Chizhou Prefecture, Anhui Province, China
- Shilu Mine, Yangchun Co., Yangjiang, Guangdong, China
- Nacheng Ag-Au deposit, Yangchun Co., Yangjiang, Guangdong, China.
- Khanong open pit, Sepon Mine, Vilabouly District, Savannakhét Province, Laos

Which one is correct ? Nobody seems to know...



29th Jan 2021 08:04 UTCMike Stott

Hi,  Sorry to say that this is 99.99999% likely to be Chinese.  Botryoidal malachite stopped coming out of Khanong in 2012 and Khanong very rarely produced any chatoyant malachite, certainly none like this piece except in very small (1cm) vughs.  It is a beautiful piece, but given the volume of very similar pieces coming out of China, I'd happily bet my house on this one.  
 
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