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Fakes & FraudsZincite...That must have been one HUGE Smokestack in Poland!
28th Feb 2007 05:16 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
I offer to you the subject of the classic "Zincite" clusters from Poland.
In the mid 70's these specimens started entering the marketplace, sold to dealers under the guise that they were from a rare mine accident, formed on the inside of a smokestack that crumbled open and revealed all of these beautiful mining by-products.
How wonderful, right, these glassy multicolored clusters that are seen at every single mineral show in the world, coming from just that one single funky smokestack accident...
This leads me to wonder...how is possible that one, or two, or even a half dozen smokestacks could produce so many specimens that over 30 years of being sold, cut, broken, placed into collections...how is it that more and more still seem to keep popping up?
Far be it from a Polish smelter accident, I believe that these Zincite specimens are lab grown or as a constantly producing by-product of the mining process.
However, when I present this theory to people they ask me for proof.
Does anyone out there have some "Facts" for me?
How about anyone out there from Poland who can provide me with some direct evidence?
Thanks!
Justin
28th Feb 2007 06:35 UTCDominik Schlaefli
If you are a bit less well off, you can settle for a single crystal pendant ($69, sold ??). The kind of single crystals that usually break of the larger zincite clusters, and the dealers don't even bother picking up when leaving the show :-).
kind regards,
Dominik
28th Feb 2007 15:09 UTCMRH
I can't find any info on these either, and not for lack of trying. Like you, I became suspicious of the story, some time ago, after seeing the preponderance of pieces which supposedly emanated from this one time incident (give me a break).
I do own an actual specimen of recrystalized zincite, collected from the slag dumps at the original smelter facility at the west end of Palmerton, Pennsylvania, which processed ore from Franklin NJ. (newer facility is at the east end of Palmerton, next to Aquashicola). The specimen is top coated with tiny, opaic orange zincite xtls, but NOTHING compared to those gemmy, georgeous "Polish?" Zincites.
I am guilty of buying one of the "Fatties" (looks more like the pyramidal models drawn by Palache in 1935 from crystalographic data observed at Buckwheat mine), in a sleeper auction (reasonable $), for use as a "crystal model" of Zincite (can't justify the cost of acquiring an actual Zincite CRYSTAL from Franklin $$$$!), but I label it only "ZINCITE (Man Made)". I too don't buy into the Myth of the Polish Smokestacks, and like you have tried to track it down with so success.
MRH
28th Feb 2007 16:17 UTCRobert Knox
Bob
28th Feb 2007 17:49 UTCJenna Mast
Maybe the original ones did come from a smokestack and they were so profitable they decided to re-create them.
28th Feb 2007 19:53 UTCJohn Sobolewski 🌟 Expert
My personal observation is that this material is not nearly as readily availbale as it was in the past. Ten years ago large clusters of these were readily available at Tuscon but in the past few years I have only seen small miniatures and individual crystals but no large clusters.
28th Feb 2007 20:53 UTCPaul L. Boyer
28th Feb 2007 22:58 UTCChris Wright
Chris
1st Mar 2007 01:20 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
Who was your source and did they show you any pictures?
Justin
6th Mar 2007 07:30 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
and it produced Zincite in tons of different seperate colors...
yeah...right. That's the ticket.
Someone buy me a ticket to Poland...I've got my own camera...
6th Mar 2007 15:38 UTCMRH
I would have thought at least a few of the dealers might have been a bit more curious as to their origins, but alas! None expressed any real curiosity for additional "Fact-Checking".
I might understand sellers not wanting to reveal a source of material which was particularly profitable for them, but it's odd that even now with "supposedly" all the material now "out-there", no one I've spoken to can remember this "Polish" dealers name, or whomever the original source of this material was? (collective memory loss?). So, of course my doubts presist, as they should.
Perhaps this "smokestack" lay on an expansion joint between universal dimensions, which could explain how so many xtls could come from one stack?! ;)
Good luck Justin
MRH
11th Mar 2007 02:47 UTCKristi Hugs
So.....how does one tell????? I know they were expensive, but after readings Justins info on The Vug...i decided to shy away from them. Any tips?
11th Mar 2007 08:56 UTCMatt K
Matt
17th Mar 2007 22:59 UTCColin Robinson
18th Mar 2007 14:39 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
18th Mar 2007 16:35 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
The non-sulphide ores of zinc (mostly hemimorphite), but also willemite, franklinite from the New Jersey mines, are/were roasted to liberate zinc oxide, which is caught in "bags" above the furnace. The slag heaps at the Palmerton, Pennsylvania, smelter (processed the ores of Franklin & Ogdensburg + Friedensville, PA) often contained still burning residual charcoal and ground ore residue, resulting in pockets lined with zincite coatings and crystals in the dumps.
The list of secondary minerals formed by the United Verde fire resulted from the various oxidation products sublimating onto cooler surfaces, such as the the steel fume/smoke diverters installed to divert the fumes to allow continued mining at surface.
Interestingly, a problem at the Palmerton smelter involved the boro-silicate glass that accumulated in the stacks from the sussexite content of the North Ore Body ores of the Sterling Mine. Obviously more than a few substances can accrete in this manner, or a similar, manner.
18th Mar 2007 22:26 UTCColin Robinson
18th Mar 2007 22:40 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
19th Mar 2007 20:58 UTCPaul L. Boyer
22nd Mar 2007 19:42 UTCAnonymous User
http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Orange-Polish-Zincite-Crystal-Specimen-45-lbs_W0QQitemZ190094951959QQcategoryZ3226QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem
MAJOR FRAUD ! what do you think ? or reputable US sellers cant go wrong ??
22nd Mar 2007 20:07 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
22nd Mar 2007 21:02 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
At that point, of course it's up to the dealer to be as honest as they can about the origin of their material - but remember - all they are doing is reporting what is told to them by the people who make it. And if that company for whatever reason wants to be secretive about their industrial processes - then that's up to them.
It's not a mineral, it's an artifact, it's out of our jurisdiction really in this case!
Jolyon
24th Mar 2007 22:31 UTCDavid Aldridge
25th Mar 2007 02:02 UTCChris Wright
Yes, I did see some photos of a smokestack with the "zincite" (this was in the 70's
in Europe). I do know that the many are from the Original "deposit". I bought about 1,000 lbs of the pieces with the largest being 35".
I inspected my lot in Vienna and also purchased superb pieces at Prague.
Later, I purchased a few of the lab grown pieces and was told that they were lab grown - these were mainly facet rough.
Could I prove that the of the smokestack were the majority, no. But it was supposedly about three tons.
Little is available except at very high prices.
The colors range was tremendous and the green were often lab grown.
Chris
25th Mar 2007 12:51 UTCJustin Zzyzx Expert
That's really interesting. I'm glad you could serve as the source of information about this! I'm going to pick your brain a bit in Dallas then! =)
Well, 3 tons...6,000 pounds. From the 70's. They are not exactly fragile, but they do break. People like to facet them, don't they? How many pounds have made it to the big garbage dump in the sky?
I would still feel confident that a large amount of material available for sale is lab grown.
There are several variables in formation and apperance in the specimens. It would be interesting to be able to find out more information about these.
26th Mar 2007 03:15 UTCChris Wright
See me at Dallas. I will try to fill in the gaps.
Chris
1st May 2007 01:52 UTCAnonymous User
Amazing that this seller made it clear on description "spectacular MINERAL"!
Anyone selling Zincite is selling stuff fraudulently, and is therefore a fraudster, isnt it ?
1st May 2007 02:11 UTCAnonymous User
Once again as before well observed and stated, but one thing you must remember my friend is that it's ok for some and not for others or so this forum will have you believe....but you are correct this is a very fraudulent act and it's being carried out by some supposedly reputable and trustworhty dealers.
Craig
1st May 2007 15:02 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
22nd Dec 2010 09:11 UTCJaniece Senn
22nd Dec 2010 09:58 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
22nd Dec 2010 13:59 UTCTomasz Praszkier Manager
I hope that helps.
Tomek
22nd Dec 2010 14:21 UTCRolf Brandt
My daughter in law's mother is a geochemist and works for the Polish Geological Survey. When I asked her to organise me some zincites, she said she knows they are all men-made and I should not bother with them.Regards Rolf
15th May 2015 04:32 UTCreddeer
16th May 2015 07:59 UTCRock Currier Expert
17th May 2015 00:17 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
17th May 2015 09:14 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
20th May 2015 00:16 UTCPaul Stephen Cyr
20th May 2015 02:48 UTCDoug Daniels
25th May 2015 19:23 UTCcascaillou
11th Jul 2016 16:23 UTCTerry Colbert
To be sure the specimens you are looking at are real you can buy an inexpensive microscope and look at any small piece of the specimen you are looking at. Set the scope to 40X to 100X you can actually see small slivers of ash in the crystalline structure.
I purchased a few small pieces off of eBay to see if they were man made and ever one of them I purchased was man made. Under the microscope you will see very symmetrical crystalline growth with is not seen in the real Zincite. Also there are no ashes in the man made Zincite, so it is very easy to tell real from fake with inexpensive equipment.
8th May 2017 03:26 UTCRebi Shanley
I have a piece of what I think was sold to me as zincite, in the early to mid 2000s. How can I tell?
The price is very beautiful, layers of terminations and the top layer covered in an almost Druzy layer . But very heavy to hold. So much so it's a bit weird to look at the stone and understand how it can feel so heavy. Any opinions gladly received guys.
8th May 2017 04:25 UTCWayne Corwin
Welcome to Mindat !
A photo or 2 or 3 would help much.Please make clear closeup in daylght.
8th May 2017 07:53 UTCErik Vercammen Expert
29th May 2017 15:08 UTCKristi Hugs
29th May 2017 23:37 UTCDoug Daniels
29th May 2017 23:49 UTCKristi Hugs
2nd Jun 2017 21:33 UTCKristi Hugs
3rd Jun 2017 03:04 UTCDoug Daniels
28th Jun 2017 21:27 UTCSigmund Ongstad
Three of the sides, and the top and bottom parts seem ‘unbroken’, while the fourth side is partly damaged, seemingly cut off from another piece. Its measures are 15 x 4 x 8 cm, weight 1 kg (density high, 5-6 perhaps). Needles are fragile, many of them have lost their upper part. The top of the specimen is light green, while the lower parts are lustrous green.
The reason why I have posted the pictures is connected to the word “soot” in the conclusion in the link given by Ian above, made by the research group from China. Soot has also been mentioned briefly by an other commentator (as a possible indicator of “fire” or overheating). Many needles (“crystals”) contain one or two very small ‘dots’ of soot, normally amalgamated and integrated in the surface structure. (Can not be removed by hand.)
The whole underpart is totally black. Here though, very thin layer of loose soot can partly be scraped off, but the whole sole nevertheless consists of solid, heavy matter, in average 5-8 millimeter thick and very black. The matter is a quite tight, rather plain/flat structure of ‘coated’ needles, as if they were dipped and burnt in tar or asphalt.
I claim no professional knowledge in the field. My point is just to share some pictures with you that can illustrate where soot can be found, in my specimen, and in possible, similar others.
If this is of any help in the discussion, not all of my money were waisted.
28th Jun 2017 21:44 UTCScott Rider
28th Jun 2017 22:02 UTCKristi Hugs
28th Jun 2017 22:12 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert
28th Jun 2017 22:15 UTCThomas Lühr Expert
Becky, our messages crossed :)
28th Jun 2017 22:15 UTCRobert Rothenberg
28th Jun 2017 23:01 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
Nice pics....
22nd Sep 2017 20:37 UTCErik Vercammen Expert
8th Oct 2018 20:23 UTCKristi Hugs
8th Oct 2018 23:05 UTCŁukasz Kruszewski Expert
9th Oct 2018 01:08 UTCA. M.
15th Sep 2019 15:57 UTCDominik Böhm
Bought a few days ago this big zincite cluster. The private seller said he bought at a fair in the 80s and said it was formed in a refinery in Poland (that is what the orignal seller said to him).Was now somebody able to find something about this story, even when this thread was opened 12 Years ago?This 'mineral' ist 10Kg heavy and measures around 42cm x 25cm. I just had to buy it... It is also fluorescent.
15th Sep 2019 17:09 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: March 28, 2024 12:36:18