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GeneralSponsored Pages - Where are you all?

30th Aug 2014 16:00 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

This might end up being a "controversial" post, that is not my intention, but I do not recall seeing any significant discussion of the topic previously.

A couple of years ago, after the publication of my Mineralogical Record article on Herodsfoot mine I thought it would be fun to sponsor a Mindat page in celebration of finishing the project. Although the Herodsfoot locality page had already been taken, the mineral page for bournonite was available and so I opted for that.

Now, a couple of years on, and the sponsorship has expired, and since I have recently completed another project - a book on the minerals of the Cairngorms, which will be published in October, I thought it would be nice to sponsor a Cairngorms related page. I was surprised to find how few localities are represented from the area (job for me later I guess), but what really struck me (no, make that AMAZED) was the remarkably small number of pages which are actually sponsored.

I've done some crude analysis on this (I guess Jolyon could pull it out of the database much more elegantly), but for what it is worth I thought I'd "share it" with you.

There are roughly 100 mineral and 100 locality pages sponsored. “What ?” I hear you say, out of the 4938 currently valid species (on the July 2014 IMA listing), only 100 are sponsored by Mindat members? Of the 847,332 localities listed on Mindat (from 248,675 unique sites worldwide), only 100 or so of them are “adopted” either. What is going on?

Apathy is a common problem in getting people to “engage”, but surely Mindat deserves better than this. I’ve heard plenty of grumbles from people over the years about the accuracy, inconsistency, ethics or some other aspect of Mindat, and also the same folk citing "on Mindat this ..., that or the other, but only 200 hundred sponsored pages? Well, the number of folks responsible for the sponsorship is actually even smaller - about 120 people and organisations – that’s all. I've no idea how many members Mindat has, nor how many individual visitors the site has - perhaps Jolyon could elaborate on this point?

The purpose of this post is to stimulate some discussion on this. We all know that Jolyon launched a fund-raising drive a year ago, and we can see on the home page how that has slowly progressed. I wonder however what it would take to get a lot more people to adopt a page. Is $50 a year too high a threshold – could we get thousands of people to make a contribution if it was $10 or $20 a page – would that be better for Mindat?

Mindat is not perfect, and probably never will be, but its great value is as a forum for information, discussion and communication – there is a considerable sense of community, and it would be good to see it continue to go from strength to strength. The management team and their helpers clearly put in a huge amount of effort and we should all be grateful to them for that commitment. The first Mindat Symposium in the UK in November may perhaps provide a platform for local discussion of this topic.

Meanwhile, perhaps Mindaters would like to share their views as to how we engage more people to sponsor a page and make a financial contribution to the site – lots of people use or look at the site every day, and it would be good to see more names on the sponsored pages listing (Oh, and mineral clubs, institutions and organisations too!)

30th Aug 2014 16:20 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

Great discussion Roy, very well put to.

One suggestion I had was I would be willing to put up forward some specimens for members to bid for with the funds going to sponsor a page. In principal it was agreed to but that was as far as we got with it. If Jolyon still agrees and there other members out there that are willing to do the same and members out there to buy the specimens it could be a nice route to take ?

30th Aug 2014 18:42 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert

I find that rather surprising. I had never looked to see how may were sponsored but assumed it would be higher. It seems it is like a lot of groups that depend on volunteers, too many want something for nothing.

30th Aug 2014 19:34 UTCMatt Neuzil Expert

That is common with everything Doug. People want extra everything but don't want to pay extra for the service. I help to run a restaurant and I am amazed at how many people want extra extra extra and wonder why their bill is more. Ummm you ordered extra! :)-D

31st Aug 2014 06:35 UTCRock Currier Expert

Some pages are obviously much more in demand for sponsorship than others. Sort of like the land rushes of the early Untied States. This can be handled in various ways. You can allocate them on a first come first serve basis. You can also allocate them by pulling the names of interested parties out of a hat, or you can auction them off to the highest bidder. Each of these systems are open to people wanting to game the system. Or I suppose you could let multiple people sponsor the pages. Or there could be a panel of judges that would look at what work or benefit the applicant has done for Mindat or mineralogy in general and award the sponsorship to them for their work. Probably others can think of yet other systems.

I don't pretend to know which system should be used for this purpose on Mindat but I think that we would be currently best served by a system that would bring in the most money to keep Mindat up and running and the greatest augmentation of a longevity fund.

I would hope that others will weigh in with other ideas.

31st Aug 2014 12:13 UTCDon Swenson

Rock, do you mean to imply that some pages have greater appeal because they are visited more often and/or contain more information than others? If this is the case, why not affix the $50 amount (or more?) to those and solicit, say, $20 for those deemed less "valuable" in terms of the number of "hits" they receive or the amount of information they contain. If some pages are essentially what Wikipedia calls stubs, maybe the sponsorship for those could be set even lower, at $10. The trick to making a variable fee sponsorship system work would be transparency and equity; in other words the criteria would have to be deemed "objective" and "fair" by the vast majority of users. I'll leave it to Jolyon and the managers to make this determination; it's way above my pay grade.

31st Aug 2014 12:29 UTCFrank Craig

Hi Roy and the community:

I am new to this forum, but not to mindat (used it as a resource for years), but I was under the impression that sponsorship was for organizations or corporations and the such, not individuals. I do agree with the sentiment on volunteer orgs - I was a member of a historical society once which had over 100 members, but less than 10 did the actual "work". When asked why; "when I see some real results, I will start contributing"! Needless to say, today, that society exists in name only. The '10' have long since moved on. Some people/communities just don't get it, or aren't the 'type' I guess:-S

Now that I know, I will be looking into sponsoring a page (or two or three):-)

Frank

31st Aug 2014 13:24 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

Thanks for the contributions everyone - let's hope we can get a few more people to jump in and join the discussion. And thanks too Frank, your response is exactly what I was hoping to achieve.

Regards

Roy

31st Aug 2014 14:25 UTCFrank Ruehlicke 🌟

Roy,

Good post and I don't think it controversial at all. I think it is good for the community to be reminded of sponsorship from time to time.

I encourage everyone who uses Mindat to sponsor at least one page. Personally, I rationalized that I derive benefits and enjoyment from using Mindat at least equal to that of my subscriptions to the MinRecord and Rocks & Minerals and so I decided $50 a year to sponsor a page is worthwhile. I also approached my local mineral club and they agreed to sponsor a page as well. Oh and thanks to everyone who contributes content!

-Frank

31st Aug 2014 14:29 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Thank you all! I am discussing the auction idea directly with Debbie...

Jolyon

31st Aug 2014 15:17 UTCJamison K. Brizendine 🌟 Expert

This is my thoughts on the subject and I am going to try and address some of them, though in no particular order.

A. I think Don Swenson posted is an excellent idea about allowing co-sponsorships for mineral/mineral localities that are in higher demand than others. A collector who only focuses on minerals from Tsumeb or who one who only collects fluorite, I think would rather prefer to co-sponsor a page instead of settling on a page sponsorship on something that they don't collect.

B. I also agree with Don that a reduced page sponsorship on less popular minerals or mineral localities, based on "hits" may be an appealing incentive to sponsor a page. Some users may rather sponsor ten dollars on "Fedorite", rather than the fifty dollars it is now. I also think that some people, for example, wouldn't want to spend fifty dollars to sponsor "wendwilsonite", unless they're name is Wendell Wilson (this is just an example and wasn't meant to insult Wendell).

C. This point may open another can of worms by itself, but there is another "mineral-worthy" cause that is currently accepting donations here in the Midwestern United States. The only reason I bring this example up is that this particular cause is eligible for a tax deduction. If faced with donating money to a cause that gives you an tax deductible incentive than one that isn't, most people would rather choose the tax deductible cause.

D. Another idea is to offer an incentive on a reduced price for a mineral page sponsorship geared towards mineral dealers who advertise on Mindat's site. For example, if "Ugly Minerals LLC" purchased an advertisement on Mindat's website, than they could also purchase an additional page sponsorship at a reduced price.

E. Along those same lines, Mindat could offer a percent discount on page sponsorships for those who sponsor four or more pages. You might get more people who are willing to sponsor multiple pages, if they are given that choice as well.

31st Aug 2014 16:56 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

Thanks Jamison - I am sure that Jolyon's view will be that we need to keep the structure very simple. My basic point (plea?) was really that I think the 50$ threshold is probably a bit too high - $10 - $20 would probably (?) pull in a lot more punters, but fundamentally, the number of people (120 only) who have actually stumped up a few bucks to support Mindat is disappointingly low in my humble opinion. Even $50 a year works out at only about 15 cents a day.

My feelings pretty much align with those of Frank Ruehlicke. I, and many others have a quick look at Mindat most days, and I reckon it is worth about the same to me as a journal or club subscription. Plenty of people obviously use it as a (possibly their major) mineralogical reference source. I just thought that we should try and get the community to think about supporting it.

31st Aug 2014 17:18 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

I'm open to all ideas as to how to improve page sponsorship. The idea of basing sponsorship on popularity of pages is appealing but could be a nightmare to structure correctly. My thinking was that everyone should be able to find at least one page they would want to sponsor.

One area that I really think we could do better with - and mindat.org members can help with - is to encourage mining/exploration companies to sponsor their own locality pages.

Jolyon

31st Aug 2014 20:54 UTCJohn R. Montgomery 🌟 Expert

I gladly sponsor pages because it is a great source of knowledge for an amateur like myself and I appreciate all the help managers and others have given me as I pursue my hobby into retirement.

I have also become acquainted with other collectors at shows and symposiums because of my MINDAT connection. I hope this discussion will bring awareness to this need and ensure MINDAT'S survival. LONG LIVE MINDAT!

Thanks Jolyon et al

John

1st Sep 2014 00:29 UTCA. M.

$50 is not a fortune but to someone it may mean they are within their budget or not. How about offering page sponsorship with a choice of 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 donation (for example, can be whatever amounts the management feels to be appropriate). Maybe then more people would feel more comfortable sponsoring a page or a mineral?

Also, what happened to mindat auctions?

1st Sep 2014 01:15 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Would it be helpful for people if they could pay for locality/mineral sponsorship by paying $25 every six months. Or maybe even $5 a month?

1st Sep 2014 02:41 UTCDoug Daniels

That could be an option, but would it be a problem on Mindat's end (the payment process)?

The other thing (excuse) to consider is, the friggin economy. I'd love to donate, but was downsized a few years ago, and at my age, can't get a real job in my profession (yes, they can figure out how old I am). So, even a few dollars a month can be a stretch with all the bills and the daughter in college and the cat meowing for food and..... As I always say, when I win the lottery.....

1st Sep 2014 14:43 UTCHenry Minot 🌟 Expert

I am happy to sponsor several pages, but would probably do more if I could get a deduction on my USA taxes.

Wasn't there some mention a while ago of getting tax exempt status (in the USA) for Mindat? What is the status of that now?

1st Sep 2014 17:11 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

It's coming... But it will take a little while longer to organize.

Obviously we'll have a big announcement here when we can.

Jolyon

1st Sep 2014 17:18 UTCDoug Daniels

Tax exempt might be well and good, but those in the US that donate need to remember that you can only deduct those donations if the total donations exceed a sizable portion of your income. And the gov'ment is trying to whittle that away, too. Still, tax exempt may bring other benefits to Mindat.

1st Sep 2014 20:38 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

That's very true Doug, which is why I suspect my job from now on may be spent trying to raise money full time.

2nd Sep 2014 09:54 UTCUlf Nyberg

My comments on the sponsor systems:

Think it's not recommended to say: Where are you all or too many want something for nothing. I know you meant well, but it can even have a complicated reverse side too,

depending on ex. rules, peoples with less money, youths without a normal job, pensioners with poor economy etc..

From Finland we have a problem that the Bank charge 40 dollar for a payment to foreign countries, or a sponsor 50 dollar will in fact be 90 dollar payments.

How about a idea where a collectors descendants do not have any interest in minerals and the collector could bequeath the mineral collection to Mindat and Mindat can then

by an auction sell these into the highest bidder, (ex. mineral shops)?

Can Mindat seek some support from organizations, state or local government?

Ulf

2nd Sep 2014 10:49 UTCDon Swenson

Ulf: I think its outrageous that Finnish banks charge $40 for foreign transactions. Could a group of 10 Finnish collectors send $50 each to a trusted person or organization then have the recipient send the money to Mindat and only incur a single fee?

Jolyon: Since there are more more sites than sponsors, why not offer a volume discount? 1 site for $25, 2 sites for $50, 3 sites for $70, 4 sites for 85, etc. The goal is to raise as much money as possible. Once again, I leave the details of the scale to you and the managers; feel free to alter mine.

2nd Sep 2014 13:33 UTCJyrki Autio Expert

After getting usefull advice again in another subject from Mindat messageboard, Roys post made me think first how much of a help this site has been and secondly that I haven't done anything for maintenance of this great resource.

Sponsoring a page is made easy for Paypal account. I didn't try other options.

Donating specimen or parts of collection would be even more appealing way to sponsor. For mostly self-collector specimens cost about the fuel used, but they could be seen worth real money to other collector. Now thinking about something in 100-1000 $ on perceived range. In any case something more than sponsor a page cost.

I don't know how donating minerals could be practically arranged, but if I could send a specimen to certain address and it wouldn't be much more work besides taking a half of a dozen photographs, I could do that and wouldn't mind paying the shipping costs. Remember people tend to be lazy.

Jyrki

2nd Sep 2014 14:51 UTCKelly Nash 🌟 Expert

Couple comments, none to disagree with anything said. I've worked on the board of a nonprofit for five years, and quickly learned fundraising is "job one". Based on the slider graph on the front page, it seems to me it's not going too bad, really. Getting a charitable status designation from the (US) IRS has become a tedious process, and can take considerable time and effort, but it's often worth it, particularly for larger donations and grants, (assuming there are enough people who care to give in the U.S.). On amounts, even a small donation has a good tax effect, it doesn't have to be a large part of your income. The amount is deducted from the donor's income in the tax calculation, not the tax amount, so yes, it is bigger for donations which amount to a big part of your income, but it still helps for small donations. A nonprofit can lose it's IRS charitable status if donations are dominated by a few big donors, so it's always good to have a bunch of small donations to report, but that's rarely a problem unless the nonprofit's been set up as a tax dodge in the first place. What I have seen is that people running a nonprofit can exhaust themselves chasing after small donations, so I would suggest keeping it simple. I'm quite impressed there have apparently been about 200 $50 per year donations - the banner on the homepage seems simple and effective in that regard, and personally, I probably would not go to a lot of effort setting up a process to attract smaller donors. Every dollar helps, it's true, but nonprofits have to concentrate on soliciting high-net worth donors. You might consider a big bright "Donate Now" button on the home page (or, actually, on every page) that accepts any amount, that is one thing a lot of U.S. nonprofits are do. Not everyone will care that much if they're sponsoring a locality or mineral, they just want to donate a few dollars to support the effort. Finally, for me, fundraising can be an awful, and sometimes humiliating, chore, always begging for alms, unless I am able to mentally flip the formula and concentrate on insights & gratitude for the donors who want to give.

3rd Sep 2014 12:52 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

Thanks for the contributions everybody - at least we've got something of a debate going, which cannot be bad thing.

By the way - I've uploaded a few locality photos of Beinn a' Bhuird in case you were wondering what the place looks like - it is one of my favourite mountain areas, and classic Cairngorms terrain.

Roy

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