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Generalmassive copyright infringement
6th Dec 2016 08:28 UTCWolfgang Hampel 🌟 Expert
I have just come accross this site Rockstone where - much to my surprise - I have not only found one of my pictures featured here on Mindat but also hundreds of other copyright protected pictures from Mindat. No credit is given, neither to Mindat, nor the respective authors of the photographs.
The site is run by German mining analyst Stephan Bogner, based in Zurich, Switzerland.
Personally, I have nothing against the idea that any of my images are used elsewhere as long as I get asked beforehand and a copyright notice is given in the text. Quite a few journals (printed and online), as well as exhibitions and others have done so in the past and I have always been happy to grant permission free of charge.
What really annoys me the most in this case is the fact, that in the German Disclaimer he writes that:
“All contents (texts as well as tables, graphs, images & charts) are copyright protected“
(Original: “Sämtliche Inhalte (sowohl Texte als auch Tabellen, Grafiken, Bilder & Charts) sind urheberrechtlich geschützt)
I would call this a „hostile copyright takeover“. What are your thoughts about this?
6th Dec 2016 09:16 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
I just took a quick look at the site and noticed several of Rob Lavinsky's photos had been used (I simply recognised them). What I also noticed was that there were at least 3 photos of my own specimens - photos that I had taken.
I certainly had not been asked permission.
I also note that there are several articles with such photos.
I will try and investigate further.
Cheers
Keith
6th Dec 2016 09:23 UTCPeter Trebilcock Expert
A quick browse of the site shows several of my pictures which are copyright, am I sure? , absolutely as they still have my catalog number on a couple of them, I will show them to a mineral collecting friend who is also a top lawyer who specializes in this type of breach and get his opinion.
On one hand I am quite proud that he thought my pics were good enough to include but a little disappointed with his lack of common courtesy.
Regards Peter.
6th Dec 2016 09:26 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager
I found a photo of a specimen in my collection and I didn't receive any demand of use.
Thanks Wolfgang.
6th Dec 2016 10:05 UTCWolfgang Hampel 🌟 Expert
I don't know too much about copyright laws in your respective countries, but in Germany there are quite a few lawyers ("Abmahnanwälte" / "cease-and-desist lawyers") specialised in this type of copyright infringement. As far as I know, it does not take much effort and a violator of copyrights has to pay in the range of € 600 - € 1000 per image. I am seriously considering contacting one of these lawyers, and, if I win the case I would be happy to donate the compensation to Mindat.
6th Dec 2016 10:21 UTCRui Nunes 🌟 Expert
Rui
Edit: in a second visit I found fifteen!
6th Dec 2016 10:53 UTCFrank Craig
6th Dec 2016 11:03 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
They have copied the photos to their website.
6th Dec 2016 12:24 UTCBruce Cairncross Expert
6th Dec 2016 12:31 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
6th Dec 2016 12:35 UTCWolfgang Hampel 🌟 Expert
The photos with captions are only available in the German version, his "research" is mainly meant for the German speaking investor community. I think he did not see the need to translate all (back) into English.
Wolfgang
6th Dec 2016 13:26 UTCBruce Cairncross Expert
6th Dec 2016 13:55 UTCJohn R. Montgomery 🌟 Expert
A quick run through and I saw A David K.Joyce photo of a forsterite specimen off Mindat.
John
6th Dec 2016 14:47 UTCHenry Minot 🌟 Expert
Henry
6th Dec 2016 14:56 UTCJeff Weissman Expert
I spotted at least 12 of my images, including several POTD, and many more that I recognized from Mindat. When asked, I usually give permission for non-commercial or academic use (I will sometimes ask for a small fee for for-profit endeavors). Certainly, this was not the case here, and I doubt I would have given permission for commercial use such as this without further discussion.
6th Dec 2016 15:11 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 15:20 UTCDouglas Merson 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 15:27 UTCBob Harman
Firstly, let me emphatically state that I fully agree with the posters stating that it appears to be copyright infringement.
But, the real problem, to me, is any discussions going along with the pictures.
For example, if a picture of a mineral specimen were shown and the accompanying comments were something like: "This is a great example of mineral ZZZ from XXX mine well worth looking for blah, blah, blah", I would not be too upset. The picture AND THE DISCUSSION would potentially enhance both my collection and value of the piece.
On the other hand, if THE DISCUSSION of the pictured specimen said something like: "This is a low end example not worthy of display etc, blah, blah, blah. I would be most seriously upset as it disparages my collection and potentially lowers any monetary value.
So, for me, the copyright infringement might be in any disparaging discussion of the pictured piece rather that than just the usurped picture per se. CHEERS.....BOB
6th Dec 2016 15:49 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager
6th Dec 2016 15:58 UTCPaul De Bondt Manager
It would be less annoying if, when clicking on the pic, it opens in Mindat. But this does not.
6th Dec 2016 16:51 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert
I will also join the complaint list . .no permission was ever requested with me either, and I'm not sure I would have for this particular project (plenty of good field books out there).
But despite any otherwise good intentions, he has stolen a lot of hard work and years worth of effort, all of which had been contributed to the efforts HERE for this purpose.
None of us made this effort for this "rockstone" site, and likely many of us would not have, so yes I am pretty unhappy about this. The level of arrogance and/or ignorance is jarring.
MRH
6th Dec 2016 16:58 UTCJohn Betts
Search "Whois" for the domain, find the host company, and send them an email with evidence of where the original content was first posted. It is not uncommon for the site to disappear within a day.
Facebook also has a simple process for infringement claims at: https://www.facebook.com/help/contact/634636770043106
That being said, it appears this site is for educational purposes, which is a good thing. He does not appear to be making money from it.
6th Dec 2016 17:00 UTCSteve Stuart Expert
6th Dec 2016 17:02 UTCSteve Stuart Expert
6th Dec 2016 17:18 UTCScott Rider
6th Dec 2016 17:19 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert
A mindat field guide is NOT such a bad idea, for quick reference or general educational purposes on the subject, especially for the kids. This is a fairly daunting site for those with beginning interest on the subject, and frankly, if I had the time to initiate an effort, I would have booked this subject myself.
MRH
6th Dec 2016 17:30 UTCPhil M. Belley Expert
https://web.archive.org/web/20160913211714/http://rockstone-research.com/index.php/de/geologie-exploration/284-Kapitel-4:-Gesteinsbildende-Minerale
6th Dec 2016 17:47 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert
Stephan Bogner (Dipl. Kfm., FH)
Chief Editor & Founder
Rockstone Research
Wagenhauserstrasse 15
8260 Stein am Rhein
Phone: +41-44-5862323
Email: sb@rockstone-research.com
www.rockstone-research.com
6th Dec 2016 17:48 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert
I will say, this IS a profit oriented site, and the content from mindat was stolen to enrich their own websites content.
Who these people are, or claim to be, "market investor" oriented:
http://www.rockstone-research.com/index.php/en/s_article/225
6th Dec 2016 17:53 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert
For those of you on Facebook, here is the page
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Rockstone-Research-185626054828957/about/?ref=page_internal
6th Dec 2016 18:00 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 18:01 UTCNiels Brouwer
I would agree that the website in general has a commercial rather than an educational purpose, although the particular page with the endless series of Mindat images seems to be less prominently so. Either way permission should have been asked beforehand, there can't be any doubt about that. The odd thing is that this seems to be followed much more consequently in other articles, where the source ('Quelle') of the images is usually given. Makes it all the more remarkable to see how many times this has been violated on this single page.
6th Dec 2016 18:05 UTCSean
My only plan is to contact the guy first before doing any legal actions towards him. If he doesn't respond to you nor to anyone or does respond, but refuses to listen, then that's when you can go after him. I'm sorry for the actual owners of these images. I know how that feels.
6th Dec 2016 18:29 UTCScott Rider
None of my images are in there (not good enough I bet), but if they were he'd be hearing from my brother who is in the Intellectual property protection business (basically works for one of the largest Patent/Trademark law firms in the world)... He laughed quite hard, as he was shocked that this person was so irreverent in deciding he could take this number of images for his own purposes and no one would find out....
Did someone threaten legal action? Is that why the first link won't work? Either way, its quite unbelievable that many images were used in this project with out him thinking, gee, do I need permission? Has this person reached out to anyone in Mindat?
6th Dec 2016 18:42 UTCSteve Stuart Expert
6th Dec 2016 19:11 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert
I disagree with the idea that the use of these images actually qualifies as strictly "Educational". This is a promotional website tied to a company promoting mining investment. The page was set up and the images stolen to promote their own businesses image, a promotion of their competency and "expertise" in the field. Nothing altruistic about that, sorry.
Had permission been sought for this, I would have declined, but I wasn't even given the right to do so.
MRH
6th Dec 2016 19:40 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 19:42 UTCScott Rider
This guy should be sued, if only that option wouldn't cost Mindat any money... To bad we can't find a copyright attorney that would work pro bono... This guy may or may not be a liar, but either way this guy used a LOT of copyrighted (and not) images with no intent to give the originator any credit. He should be punished or at least legally told to cease and desist...
The page being offline may be a good sign. But I have a feeling we may here from this person in the future...
6th Dec 2016 19:48 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert
I agree with John, but the purpose of the site is irrelevant. Intellectual property theft is still theft, regardless of the end use.
6th Dec 2016 19:52 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert
I agree with John, but the purpose of the site is irrelevant. Intellectual property theft is still theft, regardless of the end use.
That the web site owner uses Constant Contact may be another avenue of pursuit, at least if he uses stolen property in his Constant Contact emailings.
6th Dec 2016 19:55 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 20:00 UTCBecky Coulson 🌟 Expert
6th Dec 2016 20:42 UTCScott Rider
Maybe have two, one for legit sites like research/educational, rockhounds, etc. Then the other for Frauds/Unethical Sites/fraudulent dealers... I know we have a fakes/fraud, but having one for devoted to just websites and whether they are legit or not, that could be useful.
6th Dec 2016 22:59 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
Looks like the info has been taken down from their site.
I have not received a response from them in relation to my email sent yesterday.
Cheers
Keith
7th Dec 2016 00:04 UTCNiels Brouwer
It turns out that they have accumulated more than 7000 likes, as well as more than 26000 people discussing their page. Those are some serious numbers, which you will only achieve by implementing a major social media strategy. The creation of content - the elaborate articles on their website in both German and English - is a very important part of such a strategy. As the article with the vast number of Mindat images was part of this content I would argue they definitely benefited from misusing these images, or at least attempted to do so. Any professional content creator should know better than to use photos from other sites without the owner's consent. Moreover, the copyright even is explicitly visible on screen when you look through an image gallery or open the photo page. For me this can only mean the he/they did it deliberately, thinking nobody would ever notice or that there wouldn't be any consequences.
I think however that it could be a cautiously positive sign that they have already taken down the particular page. It must have been rather a lot of work to put an article together with such a number of images, so you would only remove it if you realise you've been wrong. I really hope anyone hears back from him/them, but I guess it's up to the Mindat members whose photos were used if taking the page down is indeed sufficient.
7th Dec 2016 09:21 UTCZbynek Burival Expert
Not a single line of their own content, whole articles copied, all photos copied too. Typical tiny text credit with excuse to DMCA. However, DMCA or fair use do not apply here:
These are not educational websites. These viral websites are build only for profit - you mass-scrape content, then share on social networks like mad and even the 1-2 % clicks mean insane traffic to your website. You plaster the website with ads, affilliate links and of course make sure that the affill links and ads look like normal menu items, article headlines etc. You can make a pretty decent living this way. Viralnova - which started this viral thief business - earned millions $$.
7th Dec 2016 18:00 UTCKristi Hugs
8th Dec 2016 05:36 UTCJoel Dyer
Uhhh............how anyone can Like or could have Liked the webpage, is an utter mystery to myself.
Cheers,
8th Dec 2016 09:00 UTCMatt King
8th Dec 2016 23:47 UTCMartin Rich Expert
9th Dec 2016 00:00 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
This is simply not true. It is very difficult to download without permission. The only people who have the download image button are those with level 2 access or higher, ie the most trusted users on mindat. Of course, you also have the download image button on your own images, or if the image allows sharing due to the image licence chosen.
> this should be made impossible.
It is impossible to make it impossible. Whatever we do people will be able to find a way to take images somehow. The only way to avoid this is to heavily watermark the images, but as you know we do not like that solution here.
Jolyon
9th Dec 2016 00:01 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
9th Dec 2016 02:22 UTCKeith Wood
9th Dec 2016 05:38 UTCSteve Sorrell Expert
9th Dec 2016 09:04 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
10th Dec 2016 00:36 UTCMartin Rich Expert
10th Dec 2016 02:50 UTCTony Peterson Expert
No, actually, I'll contact him now. Stealing images in this way is lazy and tacky. I hate lazy and tacky.
Tony
10th Dec 2016 05:43 UTCFrank Festa
I myself was guilty of infringement by using material taken directly from the Internet......... under the understanding of "fair use". After studying this issue and during an in-depth research, there actually no such thing as "fair usage" Nothing on the Internet can be considered "fair use" and can not legally be used without written approval from the legal owner (copyrighted or not) not to mention copyrighting the material to your name. To use any material from the Internet, the material must clearly include a statement stating legal usage.
The key here is this .......if it is not your personal material, do not use it.
13th Dec 2016 09:26 UTCZbynek Burival Expert
The other problem is property release, which is widely ignored online. You are simply not allowed to publish online someones property without the property release - even if the photo itself is free. Legally, I cant just make snaps in someones living room and post it online. It violates several privacy and private property regulations.
It takes a lot of extra work to get photos for my articles. But I make sure all is legal and that there is no harm to photographers or mineral owners. I dont like my photos stolen, so I do not steal photos of others. Simple as that.
13th Dec 2016 16:18 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
I very much doubt that a single mineral specimen photo can be covered by this legally - I'd like to see an example of any case law that would indicate this would apply. Normally as long as the photo was taken legally there is no such restriction. A property release is usually to cover 'property' in the sense of your home. If you invited me into your house and I took photos of your room without your knowledge that would be violating your property rights if I used the photos.
Also, photos taken in a public place (eg a mineral show) wouldn't need property release.
A photograph of someone's mineral cabinet, that would probably fall under the rules for this.
21st Dec 2016 06:32 UTCMatt Neuzil Expert
http://www.ontarioexplorations101.com/
21st Dec 2016 12:52 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now and return you to your regularly scheduled thread........ :-D
23rd Dec 2016 21:46 UTCFrank Festa
Here is my question......is it truly hurting, offending, causing lost income, etc, ect to have any photo/s, you freely posted here, used by someone else?
OK........Maybe it is. In that case, it would best to seek professional legal advice. First ask yourself.....are you willing to fork out costs for legal activity? And, how much are you willing to spend?
You are aware it is a simple procedure to download or copy-paste almost anything from the Internet and repurpose it? With this in mind, why would anyone think their property could or would not be repurposed? By uploading your photos to the Internet, you have thrown them into the public arena. Why would you think your property is immune to reuse even with a copyright?
Even if a copyright mark were placed on personal property, Photoshop or any cheap photo editing program can remove that mark.
Why not embed your property, which is quite easy to do.
OR, the safest thing ..............is simply not upload property to the Internet.
Otherwise live with it.
Note.....my comments only apply to the use of property uploaded to the Mindate website and no other, where no professional, economic impact , portfolio, self advertising, monetary or any personal gains are sought, ect , or were intended. And, I am sure someone will argue my comments.
Lookover the following website.........
http://blog.kenkaminesky.com/photography-copyright-and-the-law/
.......................................................................................................
Note.........what does upset me is when I see flagrant copyright infringement right here on MinDat ! ! !
Photos copied directly from books, magazines, periodicals and copyrighted to the person who uploaded the material as if the material was their personal property.
Thanks
Frank
23rd Dec 2016 22:29 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
> Copyright is a very detailed, specific, intricate subject. Without the advice of a copyright lawyer you can speculate all day long.
Interesting statement, and then you continue to go right ahead and speculate.
> Here is my question......is it truly hurting, offending, causing lost income, etc, ect to have any photo/s, you freely posted here, used by someone else?
If someone else is making money directly or indirectly out of my work without my permission and without any recompense to me, then yes, it's wrong. There's nothing "intricate" about that.
> With this in mind, why would anyone think their property could or would not be repurposed?
We think it should not. That's a big difference to your statement. One would hope that people are good enough NOT to steal content that doesn't belong to them. We certainly don't expect others to excuse this behaviour on the basis that 'this is the internet - get over it'.
> what does upset me is when I see flagrant copyright infringement right here on MinDat ! ! !
Interesting that it upsets you here, but doesn't seem to upset you when mindat.org users are victim of the same. Nethertheless the rules on mindat.org are clear. If any image that belongs to you has been uploaded by a member here without your permission then we will take action to remove it
If you see an image which is NOT yours that you believe is a copyright violation then by all means contact us, or the photo uploader privately. Do not make public accusations because there could very well be a legitimate reason. It could also simply be a mistake on behalf of the uploader (as we had before with copyright messages being incorrectly added public domain images.
But if there are any questions at all, we will investigate.
23rd Dec 2016 22:41 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: March 28, 2024 12:29:03