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GeneralPrices in the US for specimens

23rd Apr 2018 22:30 UTCNick Gilly

A while back I posted about a spinel cluster that I'd bought at a rock & gem show (see https://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,6,432290,432290#msg-432290), consisting of plum purple crystals, about 6 x 4.5 x 5.5 cm, from Mogok, Myanmar, and mentioned that I'd paid £110 for the specimen. It was mentioned that such specimens could be bought for about $30 direct from dealers in Mogok. I found a very similar-looking specimen from one of the Mindat photos, and wondered how much it had sold for. Well, today, I came across the original auction:


https://www.mineralauctions.com/auctions/weekly-mixed-mineral-liquidation-auctions-end-may-20-281/floater-spinel-octahedrons-excellent-14607.html


This is actually smaller than my specimen, and part of a large crystal face appears to be obscured by a layer of calcite or discoloured. The value is mentioned as being $750-$1000. I've come across other spinel specimens for sale on a site called Mineral Miners with similarly inflated prices. My question is, is this fairly typical pricing from American dealers? It occurs to me that if someone can buy a specimen like that for $30 in Mogok and then resell it later for $1000, the profit margins are huge!


The prices for specimens here in the UK seem to be a bit more sane.

24th Apr 2018 01:32 UTCDoug Daniels

And likely in that auction the specimen sold for less than the value mentioned. Yes, high values can be found in the U.S.; it may have a bit to do with how many hands the specimen passed through (and the price asked). Sure, if you can travel to Mogok and buy directly from a dealer there, you'd get a good buy. But remember the cost of traveling there, and back. If you are a dealer, that too adds a bit to the price asked. I'm sure there are other caveats to add.

24th Apr 2018 02:09 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

You cannot generalize when comparing prices in different countries. In both the UK and the USA you can find dealers with very reasonable prices, and some with outrageous astronomical prices. The differences in pricing policies between individual sellers are larger than the average differences between countries.

24th Apr 2018 02:55 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Alfredo nailed it. It REALLY pays to do comparison shopping, especially if/when you have a budget that you want to stay within. This is true world-wide.


If you have unlimited funds and limited time to shop for minerals, your best bet is to only look at the "high end" dealers. They'll always have very good to excellent quality specimens. However, if you have time to shop around you can often find similar quality specimens much more reasonably priced. After all, VERY few of the "high end" dealers go out and dig the specimens that they sell, so they had to buy them from someone else. If you can find that someone else then you can save some serious money.


I also tend to buy from dealers who I have confidence in. I shy away from those who really talk their specimens up. On an internet site, when I see multiple "best I've ever seen", overuse of "superb", lengthy flowery descriptions, and notions that every specimen that they have is outstanding are sure-fire signs that this dealer is not for me.


The bottom line is: if you're happy with the specimens you have, that's all that really matters. I know that I've paid more than other folks would have for certain specimens, but I enjoy being present caretaker of the specimens so I'm OK with that.

24th Apr 2018 03:55 UTCOwen Lewis

06414020016016076883941.jpg
Living in the UK, I make several buys annually from US dealers and at US auctions; usually rather more than I buy in the UK. Alfredo has it exactly right; occasionally, there are great bargains to be had, including the occasional spinel ;-) But there are also wildly extravagant prices sometimes paid as well.


I should add that my collecting interest is almost entirely restricted to gemstones, both 'au naturel' and cut and polished. There is interesting and keenly priced stuff to be found in the UK market too. Here's a specimen formed of two interpenetrant octahedral crystals,, a lavender spinel crystal and a highly unusual yellow spinel crystal, the whole piece being 1.42 ct with an SG of 3.59.

09645280015653015855224.jpg

24th Apr 2018 04:12 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Price is a relative thing.

It relates to any product, not just minerals.

I like my mineral books.

If I want a particular book I can view on line and compare prices in different overseas countries and check the different postage and delivery methods and the like and I often find that any new book may vary iin total price from $50 to over $100. And that is for exactly the same product. Soon all my imported books will increase in price by a further 10% due to additional new government taxes.

My only other option to acquire books by travelliing overseas and purchase direct but then that adds over $1,000 to the cost.


The same applies to minerals except that every mineral is different - no two exactly alike. So price becomes more variable.

When you factor in the acquisition costs plus all travel costs, dangers involved in many cases, insurance, postage and the like it's a wonder we can afford any minerals at all.


If you have to worry about the price, then it's too expenseive. No point in worrying about it - just move on.


As for dealers having high mark ups. If you believe they are too high then you should shop elsewhere.


If a dealer travels to a foreign country and purchases a flat of minerals - lets say 100 specimens of varyiing sizes and quality.

It stands to reason that the dealer has to attach a price to each, factoring all the acquisition costs, exchange rates, travel, accommodation, then advertisiing, wages if there are staff, labelling, cleanning, trimming, a profit percentage and the like. Naturally the best of the specimens will have the highest price. There may not be a lot of difference in quality from large to small - only bigger or more crystals or less damage etc etc. Then the dealer has to try and sell them and that may take months or years. After a while those that remain after a period of time are discounted to move them.


I would image and this is a pure guess as to how pricing may be done, but it would probably be that the top say 10% of a flat of minerals would be priced to recover all the original purchase costs and the remaining 90% to cover the overheads and profit margin. That way if those premium pieces sell, your iniital costs are recovered quickly and your profit is achieved over a period of time - hopefully a relatively short period of time before discounting is required to sell-off older stock.


While there are some very successful high end dealers, I would hate to think of the value of the mineral stocks that they are carrying and their overall overheads. I say to those, good for them if they can achieve those very high prices. But I think in general most dealers sell reasonably priced minerals (and cheaper and smaller ones), after all that's where the bulk of the market is - that's where the bulk of collectors exist. For those few specimens that are indeed above average - then good luck to the dealers if they can demand and get a premium price.


I don't think that there are many full-time mineral dealers - and by that I mean full-time, with shop front (or on-line prescence) and the like and making a good living at it. If there were, there would be more doing it. Most dealers would be classified as "hobby dealers.


I know I'll never be in the premium market but I do like to look at those specimens and I appreciate the fact that they are being preserved in collections all over the world.

24th Apr 2018 13:52 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Nick,

I have a little bit to add here. My wife and I have been going to the Tucson mineral show for over 40 years now since we live fairly close.

We used to buy a lot there and would "shop" around a lot before buying particular specimens. We had a personal policy to not buy from the first room we entered. My example here is more of one of experience than of the range of pricing. Knowing when something is a "deal" is about as important as anything.

At one years show visit for the first day the main motel we visited opened the first room I went into had a table near the door with the Chinese siderites with chalcopyrites on them. There were about 15 specimens with a sign "$40 each". I was quite impressed and against my personal policy I picked the nicest piece and plunked down the money. I showed my wife the purchase and we then went down the line to look in other rooms. I saw more of the material in other rooms and not one had a price below $150 and some over $200 for pieces not as nice as the one I had paid $40 for. Later at home I looked on the internet and saw some that were not as nice as the one I had gotten for $800.

My point here is that knowing a good price is about as important as any other thing in buying specimens. Hard to do on the internet when you can't hold a piece in your hand but it applies there as well.

Let the dealers with the high prices carry all their specimens home again and maybe the next show they will get the idea and sell reasonably-or not.

24th Apr 2018 14:02 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

08178230016016076888351.jpg


Thought I post a photo of the piece I was talking about above.

24th Apr 2018 16:04 UTCTony Albini

Nick, you may have seen my thread on what I observed at the Tucson shows this year. I have dealers I trust and do well with comparison shopping and as everyone has said you can still get wonderful specimens at a reasonable price if you look at many venues. I only had one expensive purchase and that was because the species is rare and the mine is closed and it was probably the best crystal I have seen from there in years.

24th Apr 2018 18:14 UTCNick Gilly

Owen, that is a gorgeous spinel specimen! I think yellow is the rarest colour of all for this mineral.


Thanks guys. Interesting posts. I did see a post on the FMF forum about how prices with many dealers at Tucson seemed to be getting out of hand, but that bargains could still be found. Also, in the original thread about the purple spinel cluster someone mentioned that US dealers charge high prices. Being in the UK I have never been to any of the Tucson shows. I tend to go to the Rock, Gem & Bead shows at Kempton Park. I do the same thing, look around and sniff out bargains if I can.


One US dealer that I have been watching is Marin Minerals. There are some stunning specimens on there, and they seem a lot more reasonably priced than several other US dealers I could mention. It does seem to be the 'high-end' dealers who charge a lot more for even their cheaper range specimens. I'm just a bit reluctant about importing specimens from the US, as it's bad enough buying CDs from there and then waiting for weeks whilst they sit in customs. I can imagine the same thing would happen with mineral specimens too.


I've also found a couple of bargains on eBay recently, a 58 gram rose pink spinel crystal from Tanzania for £31.99 before p&p (sold as a zircon), and a gorgeous deep velvety red pair of ruby crystals in marble, sharply formed and in a parallel arrangement, for just £10 before p&p (this one was sold as spinel!). Also a lot of 14 small gemmy crystals of spinel from Myanmar in various colours such as pinkish red, 'dayglo' pink, deep red, orange and purple (22.54 ct total), including a double macle twin, for a little over £20 before p&p. Apparently they are old stock dating from 1985. I think Owen would appreciate these ;-) So yes, the bargains are out there. My wife thinks I should start a little side-business in selling minerals, lol.


Oh, and Rolf, that chalcopyrite/siderite specimen is amazing! I'll have to post some pics of the ruby and the spinel lot when the weather is better.

24th Apr 2018 21:03 UTCDana Morong

The discussion about prices reminded me of something I read in an old journal, The Mineral Collector, in a couple of articles by Charles H. Pennypacker. The first one (in October 1901, v.8, n.8, p.118-120) is “How to Form a Cabinet” and in it he said: “Don’t say that your specimen is the best. Your guest will not dispute the proposition, but he will think of Ananias. Keep your specimens clean. . . . In discussing the price of a specimen recollect that you are not talking about a pound of meat or “a rasher” of bacon. It’s value is one of fancy. One man’s opinion as to price is just as good as another.” And later, in “Choice and Change” (July 1906, v.13, n.5, p. 76-77) he said: “A price for a mineral specimen, like the cost of any gem, is an abstract proposition. There are no rules to govern it. When you have a chance to make the choice, make it.”


Although there have always been dealers who have learned about minerals before going into selling them (this is the type to respect), there are also, particularly nowadays, those more interested inmoney than in learning about minerals. These ignorant types are most likely to jack prices up sky-high, regardless of quality, because they don’t really know quality, and so they tend to be heavy on prices while light on locality data. This may also be the type that tend to sell something while not really knowing what it is – some have thought that the seller was dishonest, whereas I suspect that many times that seller was merely ignorant. I have been in good mineral shops, where the people knew what they were doing, offered material for reasonable prices, and thus helped a beginner access good study material, and hence to learn. I have also been in some rock shops run by those who don’t know anything about it, and who tend to price study-grade material at quality price-levels. That type try to make money before learning about minerals – and of course, they never really learn, because you cannot do two things at once and do both of them well. One guy who got into it, was avid for selling, but I wonder if he could even read. He sold me a specimen for a very reasonable price because he didn’t know what it was, and so it was valueless to him. I didn’t know what it was, either, but I knew enough to realize that if its locality were true, then it would be a very unusual species for its locality (I don't let go of a specimen if I think it may be anything interesting - I first want to know what it is!). I have since come to realize that anyone who sells a specimen before knowing what it is, may be more interested in money than in minerals. And, of course, as a previous poster has so well put, anyone who toots his own horn in a loud voice is likely one better left far behind. There are enough good dealers who know what they are doing to offer reasonable prices, to deal with, so why bother with the others? However, they (like any who know what they are doing) are not always out in the limelight. The point is to identify which types are what, so as to know them.

25th Apr 2018 09:48 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Rolf

You did good !

26th Apr 2018 17:46 UTCNick Gilly

04579480016016076892892.jpg
A few photos:


Spinels from Pyant Gyi mine (Pyan Gyi), Pein-Pyit (Painpyit; Pyan Pyit), Mogok Township, Pyin-Oo-Lwin District, Mandalay Region (Mandalay Division), Myanmar:

26th Apr 2018 17:48 UTCNick Gilly

09913290016016076901621.jpg
And some of the ruby specimen in marble, which cost £10 before p&p, £13.99 including p&p:


01755910015653015862927.jpg

02110390015653015871660.jpg

26th Apr 2018 17:52 UTCNick Gilly

00297400016016076921546.jpg

01326440015653015884410.jpg



The specimen weighs 75 grams in total and the two main crystals together are about 14mm by 11 mm. I'd say the most likely location would be Jegdalek, Afghanistan, given the associated tan-coloured flecks of phlogopite and a probable bit of pyrite.

26th Apr 2018 18:00 UTCNick Gilly

01318520016016076932788.jpg
One more showing the termination faces:

6th May 2018 15:28 UTCNick Gilly

This is what I'm talking about. A ruby in matrix from Jegdalek, nearly 2 cm long, and a gorgeous specimen for sure:


[img]https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1281/8845/products/Devin_38189e41-4985-4807-aca0-4c37446906a9_1024x1024.jpg?v=1522864073[/img]


But $24,000?! Really?


I think I'm in the wrong business!

6th May 2018 20:31 UTCPhil M. Belley Expert

Nick, if that crystal is gem quality (it might be), it could cut a stone worth a considerable amount.

6th May 2018 20:46 UTCNick Gilly

Hi Phil. Is it gem quality though? It has excellent colour and it looks like it has that 'wet' lustre, but it looks translucent at best to me. The colour and sharpness of form of my cheap specimen are comparable to my eyes!


This is gem quality:

6th May 2018 21:32 UTCPhil M. Belley Expert

Nick, the only way to tell would be to inspect the specimen. There's a fair chance it is gem quality, in my experience with sapphires.

6th May 2018 21:48 UTCNick Gilly

Well, the description says "This is an exceptional ruby specimen from this new locale, featuring a very well-formed, lustrous, almost 2 cm crystal with saturated red color on contrasting marble matrix." No mention of gem quality or that it's transparent.


I'd love to inspect it but it's thousands of miles from my location unfortunately.

6th May 2018 22:07 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Every specimen is unique, and mineral dealers price things according to a million different variables. If you think you understand how minerals are priced then you're probably wrong.


There's no need to get concerned or upset about it. Just ignore those that you think are priced higher than they should be and buy things that you like that are a price you can afford.

6th May 2018 22:58 UTCNick Gilly

Oh, I'm not concerned or upset. I do think it's slightly crazy pricing though. I have seen specimens from Mogok which I personally thought were superior on sale for considerably less.


It does remind me somewhat of the pricing of high-end audio, where marketing seems to be a major factor.

6th May 2018 23:07 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

If you happen to be going to the East Coast Gem, Mineral and Fossil Show in August, Marty Zinn is giving a presentation: "Why Do Minerals Cost So Much". I've talked with him about this, and I can say that his views will be very enlightening! For more info on the show: https://www.mzexpos.com/east-coast-show

6th May 2018 23:18 UTCNick Gilly

Thanks Kevin. I'm in the UK though, so it's a long way for me to go ;-) That does sound like it would be an interesting presentation to see though.


I'm on a limited budget so look out for bargains when I can.

12th Mar 2019 19:09 UTCNick Gilly

01275930016016076946147.jpg
Here's another example of pricing which seems somewhat, shall we say, optimistic:


[img]https://www.wildfishgems.com/zirw/861/i/u/2102552/i/rupy4.744-bF.jpg[/img]


^Size is 25x20x10 mm, weight 4.744 grams. This is yours for a mere $1775.


Here's my specimen, size 25x20x15mm, weight approx 10 grams, and it cost £70, or about $92:



I think I prefer mine as well!

12th Mar 2019 23:05 UTCScott Rider

I used to whine about prices, and Mindat (and my rock club I belong too as well) helped me come back to reality! Also, as a prospector, I can appreciate what people go through just to get the minerals. I work my butt off to get what I find, but I love digging and the art of the sale!!! But pricing is subjective for sure...


A good example of high prices, at least from my neck of the woods is the Lake George Amazonite. A certain miner there spends a considerable amount of money to extract the specimens, using machinery to get to those specimens, tons of hours of work, insurance costs (which keeps rising), etc. Its not cheap or easy to get those... But they get some of the best stuff I've seen out of their hard work.


Sweet Home Mine rhodo also comes to mind. It is EXTREMELY expensive extracting those out of Mt. Bross for the same exact reasons. I've met one of the people involved in the mining, and we've had a nice presentation with my RAMs club on the subject. It was quite enlightening to see the amount of sheer amount of manpower, hours, capital and preparation it takes to extract those amazing specimens and to get them ready for sale!! These are two first world examples as it is expensive to setup a productive mine in the States so its a little different than, say southern Asia...


The end results are always end up being dictated by the market. It all boils down to what a person is willing to pay for the specimen, the price tag may/may not be achieved, its really haggling/negotiating that brings the price back to reality!!

13th Mar 2019 16:18 UTCHolger Hartmaier 🌟

Ultimately the mineral market, composed of a broad diversity of budgets and interests will determine what dealers can sell. Collector-dealers pricing specimens based on recovering the cost of their mining operations and/or acquisitions may or not be profitable if the market deems the specimens to be overpriced. In contrast, industrial/commercial mining companies go to great lengths to determine ore grade, quantities, mining/processing methods and cash flow based on "known" or projected commodity prices and determine the profitability of a mining operation before deciding to proceed. In the mineral specimen trade, there are no "known" prices, so how does a dealer determine if he has a viable business plan? The only way to find out is to see what sells and for how much and adjust accordingly. Some dealers may fortuitously find a self-sustaining business model this way. As collectors, we rely on dealers doing the leg work or physical effort to bring specimens to market and so there is a fair price to be paid for that convenience.


As noted in some of the previous posts to this thread, collectors that purchase specimens from dealers usually have a pretty good feel for what they consider to be a fair price and tend to patronize dealers that they trust.

20th Mar 2019 22:30 UTCNick Gilly

Nick Gilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is what I'm talking about. A ruby in matrix

> from Jegdalek, nearly 2 cm long, and a gorgeous

> specimen for sure:

>

> https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1281/8845/produc

> ts/Devin_38189e41-4985-4807-aca0-4c37446906a9_1024

> x1024.jpg?v=1522864073

>

> But $24,000?! Really?

>

> I think I'm in the wrong business!


Now reduced to $20,000. It is also illustrated in 'Ruby & Sapphire, A Gemologist's Guide', which raises its kudos:


http://www.lotusgemology.com/images/books/r-s-gemologists-guide/RS-Gem-Guide-404-405.jpg
 
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