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GeneralIrradiated Chinese Fluorite?

25th Dec 2018 19:56 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert

Numerous Chinese ebay dealers have been offering intensely blue fluorite in large crystals, mostly without specific locality information. Are these natural (I doubt it) or treated (probably irradiated)? See attached.

Yes I know we are not the ebay police. I have no interest in bashing any ebay dealers. I am only curious as to their origin, and if natural, a precise locality.

26th Dec 2018 00:12 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

To me it looks natural. Maybe oiled in order to improve brightness and blue color enhanced by cold light and somewhat photoshopped.

BTW, it exists any way to enhance fluorite color? Irradiation is a normal practice in topaz, spodumene and others but I have not read about it in fluorite.

26th Dec 2018 03:54 UTCAlix Julien

Hello.

I asked myself the same question because lot of Chinese Fluorites are on a matrix of smoked micro-quartz ... (Example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202542078078)

But that does not necessarily mean that it has been irradiated. It can be natural..

I agree with José: I never heard or read that Fluorite could be colored by irradiation. (although I think there is an impact: see pink fluorite if I'm not mistaken).

We can emit the hypothesis that the crystals of Quartz can be smoked by irradiation in order to most bring out the crystals of Fluorite but it remains to prove..

To see...

In any case yours may not be because I saw the same material with the matrix and the Quartz are not smoked because of the irradiation. (See: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192737621214)

The color is just crazy :)

Alix JULIEN

26th Dec 2018 04:54 UTCWayne Corwin

Here is a photo of Wise Mine Fluorite from Westmoreland, NH irradiated by Bob Whitmore.

All the clear fluorite turned blue, the quartz crystals turned black, and any green fluorite stayed green,,, no change.

26th Dec 2018 07:49 UTCTorben Kjeldgård

Hi

Got some smaller ones of the "blue" fluorite from China, but it seems that they have

been photoshopped, they was not very blue in real life.

regards

Torben Kjeldgård

26th Dec 2018 10:19 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Steve

In answer to the other part of your original post, the specimens may be from here:

Manaoshan, Suxian District, Chenzhou Prefecture.

26th Dec 2018 12:04 UTCLuca Baralis Expert

I was musing about the same thing... some specimen are really too blue, but the cheap ones I got are way more pale in color. Probably Photoshop rules! ;-)

I'm also puzzled by some yellow, green and pale blue (on top) quartz specimens. I don't think they are natural.

Look at::

https://www.ebay.it/itm/138g-NEW-Find-Rare-Beautiful-Clear-QUARTZ-Blue-Top-Crystal-Cluster-Specimen/202545497953?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

26th Dec 2018 15:14 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

I haven't seen any of these in person, but the color in the photos reminds me of the fluorescence shown by some flourites (Rogerley Mine for instance). I wonder if the photos were taken in natural light with a UV light also in use. If anyone has one/some of these specimens, please check to see if they react to UV light and look like the photos.

26th Dec 2018 16:11 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

I don't believe they are irradiated.

It seems they are the product of creative photography, Photoshop, and a heavy dose of oil.

26th Dec 2018 17:34 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

In Alix's example, "the color is just crazy" largely due to photoshop.

Make adjustments for a reasonably natural looking skin tone and you'll see the results of what the specimen actually looks like.

Mind you, this is the super lazy effort at bumping an image. It's really not that much effort to go in and mask out all but the specimen in a photo and mess with the color and saturation in that area alone, so "buyers beware" . . if it's too looks good to be true . . there's a perfectly rational reason for it . . .

26th Dec 2018 21:47 UTCNick Gilly

Luca Baralis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was musing about the same thing... some specimen

> are really too blue, but the cheap ones I got are

> way more pale in color. Probably Photoshop rules!

> ;-)

> I'm also puzzled by some yellow, green and pale

> blue (on top) quartz specimens. I don't think they

> are natural.

> Look at::

> https://www.ebay.it/itm/138g-NEW-Find-Rare-Beautif

> ul-Clear-QUARTZ-Blue-Top-Crystal-Cluster-Specimen/

> 202545497953?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid

> =p2060353.m1438.l2649

Maybe this is quartz with dumortierite inclusions?

31st Dec 2018 16:30 UTCLuca Baralis Expert

Nick Gilly Scritto:

> Maybe this is quartz with dumortierite inclusions?

Yes, may be, as I saw only pictures of this stuff. However, again the blue top seems too bright to me, as for most of the fluorite offered. I could be wrong.

4th Jan 2019 07:58 UTCBrenton Mah

A recent Facebook post being circulated has only confirmed that these bright blue to green Chinese fluorites have indeed been irradiated.

The fluorites apparently can derive from any Chinese fluorite locality, but a few of the more common culprits are:

- the large cubic blue-green cubes with thick bevelled edges are actually the pale green Xianghualing Mine fluorites

- the simple cubic, royal blue fluorite cubes on drusy quartz matrix turns out to be those purple/yellow zoned fluorite from Anhui province

This has been suspected for some time but now there has been confirmation. Inexpensive, common Chinese fluorites are being purchased in bulk and subsequently irradiated, nevermind photos with additional color saturation!

7th Jan 2019 19:54 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

This may be post Brenton refers to. If this is the case, the fluorite on the first photo posted looks to be irradiated.

7th Jan 2019 21:30 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I wonder if exposure to sunlight will turn them back?

7th Jan 2019 22:37 UTCGreg Dainty

The facebook thread is very much worth reading, Reiner apparently the irritation has been going on for a number of years. It is suggested some even fade without exposure to sunlight, but there is really no comprehensive info on the extent that material from various sources fade or does not fade.

13th Jan 2019 16:46 UTCChristoph Heichert

Hello!

From my point of view in the last two years the mineral market, particularly ebay, was flooded with irradiated (commercial 60Co-sourche?), intensely blue fluorite crystals from China. Thereby colour distortion by image processing on ebay is the minor challenge: Reverse photoshopping by fading of e.g. intense rosa hands bearing the item offered is practicable!

Particularly the pristine pale bluish-green dodecahedral fluorites on nearly colourless quartz crystals from the Sanming Prefecture, Fujian Province are pimped up to deep blue on suddenly greyish brown quartz (= faked irradiated quartz crystals from Romania). Moreover by a miraculous way the Yaogangxian Mine, Hunan Province delivers in the recent two years dark blue (not purple with blue phantomes) fluorites associated with deep brown or nearly black smokey quartz crystals combined with the classical paragenesis (arsenopyrite, mica etc.).

Such faked items were even offered by high end mineral dealers at the Munich Shows 2017 and 1018 for exorbitant prices (1000-2000 up to more than 20000 €) but seems to be a shopkeeper.

13th Jan 2019 22:40 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Let me note two details about this Facebook message:

- Compared photos (after/before, up&down) don't look to be the same specimen.

- Does not offer proof or references of his assertion.

To me, without knowing the author, these kind of "news" have not any credit.

I don't say that they are not irradiated, but at the moment there is not any reliable prove of it. As said, pictures are photoshopped, oversaturated, color enanced, etc.

I think it's a matter of "fake images" more than fake specimens.

16th Jan 2019 07:07 UTCBrenton Mah

José Zendrera Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let me note two details about this Facebook

> message:

> - Compared photos (after/before, up&down) don't

> look to be the same specimen.

They're the same type of specimens, and it should be fairly obvious. It's improbable that one is able to have a specimen in its initial state photographed, have it irradiated by the shady person(s) in question, and somehow acquire the exact specimen back in its irradiated state.

But perhaps there is someone who has access to this irradiation method (someone in the gemology industry?) who can test out specimens and see if he ends up with the same results.

16th Jan 2019 22:45 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

I just received some samples of the same material that started this thread, sold as "Fluorite on Chrysanthemum Quartz" by some ebay sellers with just China as origin. As expected, color is not so bright as was advertised. Note that quartz is almost clear, only little smoky in a hue of very light grey, but it seems darker due to grey matrix. Nothing to do with the toasted quartz that accompanies treated topaz or spodumene.

On the other hand, the few papers I've been able to find in the net about irradiated fluorite talk about natural irradiation and the resultant color is always purple. Only one mention to gamma-irradiated blue fluorite but without references: http://minerals.gps.caltech.edu/COLOR_Causes/Radiate/index.html.

All in all, I stay in doubt...

Here my samples:

At left, seller's photo. At right my photo under natural light without enhancement.

At left, seller's photo. At right my photo under halogen light without enhancement.

12th Feb 2019 01:05 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Just adding some photos of a bigger specimen of this suspect fluorite. Color is really stunning under sunlight, with a deep electric blue maybe too good to be true... but quartz is almost clear, just very slightly smoked only. If they have been irradiated, treatment has been done in a way that don't seems have an effect on quartz.

14 x 12 x 7 cm

1240 g

Sunlight

Halogen + LED backlit

18th Feb 2019 19:25 UTCRussell Grossman

What are the irradiation effects on calcite. Doesn't it turn red/pink? I have one that has snow white calcite but the deep blue fluorite color. Irradiated?

18th Feb 2019 20:48 UTCBob Harman

RUSSELL,

If you are asking whether calcite color can be darkened, lightened, or changed due to irradiation, my answer would be "well, maybe".

As I understand it, some Tri-State District amber colored calcites can have a minor color change after irradiation.

Also, some cleaved colorless calcite can take on a light blue color after irradiation, but intact, uncleaved, crystals did not meaningfully change color.

Of most importance for collectors seems to be the fact that no really meaningful color changes can be imparted to collector calcite specimens after irradiation.

Maybe others know of other more meaningful color changes when considering collector calcites.

CHEERS......BOB

25th Mar 2019 17:24 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

Just found this thread doing some searching of my own on this. I just ordered this specimen last week and was curious on y'alls thoughts. You think this is manipulated fluorite?

EBAY ITEM

I only paid $51 so it's not a total loss if it's been altered. But curious to learn for future purchasing.

25th Mar 2019 17:46 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Hello Joshua,

I've personally collected comparable here in New Mexico and have seen comparable from other locations which were not irradiated, photoshoped or "messed with" in any way. I think you got a good deal on a nice specimen.....enjoy!!!

25th Mar 2019 18:20 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

Thanks Don, that's good to know!

25th Mar 2019 18:54 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

Here is another I got last week from a different dealer for $50. I presume it's real but it is a nice little specimen with small phantoms inside it looks like. You think it's natural? Also, what are those black dots all over it? I'm still waiting to receive it, and hope I snagged another good buy.

This dealer did inform me of another specimen I was going to buy which did end up being man-made. There is a forum thread on it as well. So that gives me a little bit of trust to go on, and it saved me $200!

25th Mar 2019 19:21 UTCBob Harman

JOSHUA, I would have to take issue with DON S's interpretation of your first posted specimen.

Until conclusively proven otherwise, I think the blue fluorite is not the original natural color. It has been manipulated.

Blue fluorite of a deep saturated blue color and very lustrous comes from only a worldwide few locations with good quality examples being quite expensive.

New Mexico blue fluorite, such as that found in Bingham, is not this shade nor this really good luster, even in the best specimens.

First you should give us the location where your specimen comes from. Without any location given, the example is probably from China and has had its color altered until conclusively proven otherwise.

My opinion. So this is why altered specimen interpretations can be so difficult with differing opinions. CHEERS.......BOB

25th Mar 2019 19:37 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Bob, we have in our collection self-collected fluorites of equal (and richer) color & luster. I guess maybe I am more trusting than you are - and we've sold comparable for $50.00 (and less)! Also, how would you "prove conclusively" that the color has been altered?

Joshua, try to crush one of the "black dots" on the QUARTZ and let us know what color the powder is.....it won't damage the quartz.

25th Mar 2019 19:50 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Joshua, have you gone to the Mindat location page of where your specimen is from, and looked at the possible associated minerals? Just going off of looks I would guess that your piece may be from one of the mines in the Yaogangxian W-Sn ore field, and the black dots may be micro pyrite crystals. Then again, I could be WAY off!

25th Mar 2019 19:56 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

I would second how do I prove it's been altered? What equipment is used to do this at home, or is this something a lab would have to determine? I don't mind hearing two sides of the coin either!

I'll definitely crush a few dots and see what they look like. I'll take a magnified photo as well for you, when they arrive later this week.

Deep Blue Fluorite in question

Weight - 1515g

Length - 203mm

Width - 122mm

Height - 39mm

I just emailed the dealer to find out where it's from in China. I usually do that but forgot on this one, and asked about another specimen he had. So once I hear back, I'll post his response on location.

25th Mar 2019 20:11 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

Kevin Conroy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Joshua, have you gone to the Mindat location page

> of where your specimen is from, and looked at the

> possible associated minerals? Just going off of

> looks I would guess that your piece may be from

> one of the mines in the Yaogangxian W-Sn ore

> field, and the black dots may be micro pyrite

> crystals. Then again, I could be WAY off!

Hey Kevin, I completely forgot about the mine location photos! I agree, and it does look like it could be from there. That mine produces some beautiful specimens. The seller has it listed from Hunan province, so there's a chance that is where it came from.

25th Mar 2019 20:42 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Yeah, Hunan Province is a big place though, so unless the seller has proof of a more exact location you'll just have to go with "Hunan Province".

25th Mar 2019 21:57 UTCBob Harman

JOSHUA, You asked about how to find out whether your specimen is all natural or has been tampered with. Being a skeptic I am suspicious from the start and here is how I might approach the dilemma. Recognize that a definitive answer may not ever be found out.

Buying on ebay should raise warning flags from the start as many doctored items are found there.

Buying really nice quality items at apparent bargain prices is also a warning flag. Again many doctored items are found there.

Mineral specimens from "China" or without any definitive locality is another warning flag. Tampering with specimens is common over there.

Attempt to check out any given specimen locality. Are any similar size and quality examples pictured on Mindat or other websites?

Are the prices similar for similar size and quality specimens?

Being a skeptic and answering these questions before purchase just might prevent "getting taken" . CHEERS......BOB

26th Mar 2019 00:29 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

I know and agree with your statement on ever finding out. I'm not the typical dodo who doesn't pay attention and I run multiple companies and are aware how some China businesses operate, as I've been dealing with them in other areas.

Here are what the sellers just replied with...

Deep Blue Fluorite

wuyi mining area, fujian province

Light Green Fluorite

yaogangxian, Hunan

They could be honest or making it up... totally aware.

Now, back to the other question I had. How do we determine manipulated fluorite vs natural? Can it be done at home with modest tools? Or do you need sophisticated lab equipment.

Not all Chinese people are scammers, and sometimes you could find yourself an honest broker where you can get some good deals on nice specimens. But being able to verify a purchase or two can go a long way in verifying for certain. 90% of items have a counterfeit counterpart on this planet, and I realize these are no different ;) Thanks for all the input!

26th Mar 2019 01:42 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

I'm glad that you got an answer back on the locations. The light green one can be labeled as coming from the Yaogangxian W-Sn ore field. It's probably from the Yaogangxian Mine, so maybe ask the dealer if they meant "mine" or "ore field".

Can't help on the deep blue fluorite or your question about natural vs manipulated fluorite as I don't have any expertise with either.

26th Mar 2019 03:08 UTCDoug Daniels

I agree with others that you can't really tell if the deep blue color is natural or irradiated. Maybe, if the is some quartz associated (especially crystallized), is it "smokey - that is, dark brown to black in color. In that case, maybe (MAYBE) irradiated. I too have seen some very nice blue fluorites from some of the mines in the Bingham district of New Mexico - none that I could afford, but have self-collected some fairly nice ones. So, whether your is natural or irradiated, well you didn't spend a fortune on it. Looks nice anywho. Just note in your catalog (you are keeping one?....) that it may be natural, may be irradiated. As long as you like the durned thing.....

26th Mar 2019 18:59 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

Kevin... The seller said it came from the Yaogangxian Mine.

Doug. I do keep a catalog (database) of everything I've purchased so far. I track PRIMARY_MINERAL, MATRIX_COMP, MINE, PROVINCE, REGION, COUNTRY, CITY_ACQUIRED, SIZE_CLASS, SIZE_CM, WEIGHT, BUY_DATE, MY_COST, SELLER_NAME, SELLER_TYPE, PCOLLECTOR1, PCOLLECTOR2, WEBSITE, RETAIL_PRICE, NOTES, DESC, MINERAL_PICS, MINE_PICS

I try to get as much info as possible for each one.

28th Mar 2019 14:44 UTCAl Thompson

Read the Facebook posting about this subject. Your first piece is almost assuredly irradiated. I had a piece just like that, which matches the textbook example of irradiated fluorites. Also, you can generally tell by the overly-saturated color. Of course there are many minerals with beautiful saturated colors, which are completely natural, but that style is mostly likely not one of them...

The second piece looks totally normal and natural. That is not at all an uncommon looking fluorite from the stated locality.

28th Mar 2019 18:46 UTCJeff Wonders

Considering 3 out of the 4 above pictures were specimens I purchased thru dealers in China AND 2 out of the 4 Pictures above were taken by myself I have something to say ...So let me put my two cents in Top right was one of the first ones that I bought in a small lot from a dealer in China (me being a novice) had really no concerns about them it was only after they all sold that I heard rumblings and learned that they (may be irradiated)....the initial post says pics 1 and 2 after irradiation...And PICS 3 AND 4 BEFORE this is total bull bottom right specimen is from a well documented Mine with tons of like material that specimen was and never would be tampered with...this whole post was put together without my consent and without one person asking me my opinion the TOP left picture was a pic from my dealer this specimen in my opinion was and is natural THE OTHER point I would like to make is knowone ever talks about the possibility of natural irradiation? Why not it does happen does it not THE PROBLEM WITH THIS post is now I'm being accused ok knowing what I was selling was in some way tampered with and I flatly deny that I asked my dealer and of course he says it's not my solution was not to buy anymore

29th Mar 2019 02:28 UTCDoug Daniels

Jeff-

You mention something about 3 out of 4 pictures......I went back through the thread, and noted a number of specimens (certainly more than 4). Can't say I saw your name associated with any of them. If you did sell them, fine - someone liked it enough to do so. Were they irradiated or not? We don't know. Most of us were just responding to various comments, giving our OPINIONS. Don't think anyone here zeroed in on any one dealer/seller/collector; if so, that comment may have been deleted by the powers that be here. I see this thread as something useful for those who have questions about their specimens - read the responses, believe which ones you want to.

2nd Apr 2019 04:26 UTCJeff Wonders

I'm only talking about this post that was originally published in Only Fluorite on Facebook no worries

15th Apr 2019 15:58 UTCJoshua Ribbeck

https://www.ebay.com/itm/153446241623

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293018586933

What are y'alls thoughts on these blue fluorites? I see a bunch of them on fleabay currently.

18th Apr 2019 14:40 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Some days ago I received a specimen of fluorite very similar to the one that starts this topic. The sample arrived a little broken at the base along some cleavage planes and shows an internal color zoning that can explain the color changes of these specimens depending on light direction:

Backlit by halogen light

Broken piece

1st May 2019 05:24 UTCMark E P Woods

I have purchased a dozen or so of these Chinese fluorites recently. They are almost always covered in oil of some kind, which a soak in warm soapy water will take care of every time. Of course, this will reveal the true nature of the surface luster, and possibly any fractures or bruises that were filled by the oil. I too wonder if they are manipulating the color in some way, but I have no evidence to suggest that this is the case. The crystal form and matrix material all pass close inspection, and there is no hint of glue or other construction or assembly or shaping. The photographs on the other hand are ALWAYS taken in very bright back-lighting, so there is no way that the specimen will appear the same in your collection case as it did on the auction page. Photoshop is very commonly used on many photos to enhance color... just search for an aquamarine from Pakistan for example. All the colors and forms of these recent Chinese fluorites are present in specimens from known localities, so no help there. The Chinese are mining lots of fluorite, presumably to use as flux in steel making, so the idea that they would come across, and know to preserve specimens for sale is not incredible. I hope I did not get burned... but I do like what I got, so until proven otherwise, I will just enjoy them!

P.S.- I usually ask for photos in natural light, and with no oil or water on the specimen. Lots of sellers will oblige, and if they will not, that is your answer right there.

Two images, the darker one was the original listing photo, clearly with oil, and the second the one I got when I asked for a clean one. It looks pretty much like the latter in real life, under normal bright light.

6th May 2019 18:26 UTCRolf Ehinger

I purchased some specimen with little money. By unpacking it was really a nice mix. WOW!!

And the colors are very close like in the photos.

1. Two pieces green and Green/blue fluorite on smoky quartz: Smells of oil. One looked sprayed. After a warm soap water bath the fluorite crystals looked pale gray. Moved to trash.

2. Two small dark blue fluorite crystals on smoky quartz . No oil and unchanged after bath. Anyway im my opinion it is 100% irradiated as indicated by the color of the quartz.

3. Three fantatstic blue gemy crystals with snow white calcite. Wonderful colour never seen before. Most probably also irradiated, but this calcit, why is is still snow white, shouldn't it get dark?

My conclusion: These imaginative dealers are very experienced to use oil, silicon- and hair spray. Costs to irradiate one kilo minerals is 5$. I got my doubts confirmed. When I read "all natural"hazard lights switched on.

If this would be really true, we should find these specimens on mineral shows and price would be not under 4/5 digits.

Anyway this number 3 pieces are really wonderful! May be I want a really big one.

6th May 2019 22:05 UTCScott Rider

Interesting observations Rolf. Can you share some images of them, especially #3 as I am curious!

It is unfortunate that people have to be dishonest in selling these, but that is just a fact of life and nothing will change dishonest people from trying to make money. Caveat emptor!!!

Anyway, I also wanted to comment on Mark's post. I actually like the 2nd image more than when it was "enhanced." Maybe its just the lighting, but I believe it has better color contrast and the color, albeit lighter, shows off the blue zoning better. Of course, it could be the monitor I am using or the lighting was different so my opinion is moot...

7th May 2019 13:15 UTCMatt Herscher

Hello all. This is my first post, shame it potentially has to be a downer...

Anyway, I recently bought a fluorite eerily similar to one of the two posted by Joshua. It looked stunning in the photos, but as soon as I got it I knew something was fishy. For one thing, the color was way off. The one in the picture was strikingly blue, while the one I received is a deep teal. That's not that big of a deal to me, they use Photoshop and whatnot. The bigger concern I have is that the specimen has been irradiated. I'm kindof a purist in that regard, i.e. you'll find no titanium quartz nonsense and the like in my modest collection.

Here are a few images to illustrate my points and fears. First, the image as posted by the seller on ebay - oiled, blue as the ocean and apparently shot next to an atomic bomb going off.

Second - the fluorite in direct sunlight

third - the fluorite in daylight with a flashlight pointed at it.

As you can see, the color is nothing like in th advertisement. But, is this irradiated? The more I read others' opinions, the more I suspect it is... I tried the soap bath Rolf suggested, the color remains the same, a deep teal.

7th May 2019 13:45 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

I don't know whether this is irradiated or not, but color changes under different lighting sources are quite common in minerals, and especially in fluorites, so that by itself is not indicative of irradiation.

7th May 2019 15:25 UTCScott Rider

Alfredo, couldn't the quartz cluster being black/smoky be indicative of irradiation? I had a fluorite specimen very similar to Matt's that has much lighter blue color, and the quartz was white as snow. I see that Matt's has smoky quartz which "could' indicate it was irradiated...

As for it being oiled, I see a TON of that in shows and in online auctions.. Not really surprised at that...

8th May 2019 04:23 UTCAlix Julien

Hello

Personally I asked, after purchase, a salesman to give me a photographic proof of the vein (because he told me that he often went in the mine and that it was therefore natural). From that moment he did not say anything and paid me back in full without asking for his rest ..

It does not prove anything but it still seems a little bisare. I prefer to prove that my stone is true rather than losing money ...

It was exactly the same Fluorite as in Matt Herscher's message on May 07, 2019 01:15 PM

To meditate..

See you soon

Alix JULIEN

11th May 2019 20:17 UTCMark E P Woods

Scott, I agree. In many cases the clean specimens do look better, so I often wonder why they oil EVERYTHING!

13th May 2019 00:47 UTCdonovan wood (2)

Hi All

I am not sure if this question has been asked or covered in this thread yet? But if the specimens are irradiated would that fade over time and if so would it be noticeable as I understand Fluorite would naturally fade from harsh light exposure?

30th May 2019 03:22 UTCtodd Van Duren

Can anyone provide links to unaltered examples of the above suspects? I'm particularly curious about the deep royal blue, sharp, simple cubes on quartz that are currently flooding the market. Thanks

10th Jun 2019 12:48 UTCRolf Ehinger

Are irradiated fluorites contaminated? Could it be possible that they emit radiation?

Emit radiation is known from blue topaz, spodumene and others, but not from irradiated quartz.

For these reason blue topaz is stored, for a longer period after irradiation, before it is sold.

Could anyone give advise for the mentioned fluorites?

Thanks

10th Jun 2019 12:59 UTCRolf Ehinger

@Scott Rider

The #3 fluorites are similar, as shown in picture 1, posted by Jeff Wonders. Best regards

10th Jun 2019 15:35 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Rolf,

I had a friend who had some of the irradiated smoky quartz and he stopped by and said he was going to get rid of those since he was afraid they were radioactive. We had to laugh and we used irradiated food as an example and explained the radiation makes the changes in either the mineral of the food but passes through and doesn't make the things radioactive. So, hope that answers your question.

10th Jun 2019 16:33 UTCRolf Ehinger

Thanks @Rolf Luetcke for your feedback. Unfortunately I've still doubts.

As i know irradiated blue topaz emits radioation, irradiated quartz not. Means it depends on mineral.

What about fluorite? Up to now I did not find any information on this.

Did anyone measure radiation of irradiated fluorite?

10th Jun 2019 16:41 UTCRolf Ehinger

See https://www.mta-r.de/blog/strahlend-strahlende-schoenheiten-bestrahlte-edelsteine/

or https://www.epigem.de/radioaktive-edelsteine.html

10th Jun 2019 18:43 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Rolf,

The one you mentioned in topaz, is likely that the pocket those were in had U mineralization and some is actually part of the crystals. I have seen this in a few minerals, where from some deposits they are not radioactive and from others they are. Guess it depends on the particular deposit.

As I had mentioned, the ones that are "lab" irradiated would not have any radiation from them since they were irradiated by a radiation source and were not altered chemically. The other thing with the whole uranium minerals is that most are not dangerous when one is a few feet away in ones collection. I believe this topic with how dangerous ones u. mineral collection is has been discussed in other threads.

We have quite a few radioactive minerals in our collection and a gieger counter and have tested things in my mineral room and a couple feet away there is nothing showing on the counter. So, as long as one doesn't carry hot rocks in ones pocket it seems quite safe.

Our area has a background radiation count about three times the average because there are uranium deposits in the surrounding mountains and the material worked its way into the soils by erosion,. Only problem is if one has a basement and then radon gas can build up. A nearby public caverns tour has this problem and guides have to rotate after a time giving tours because of exposure to the radon gas in the cave.

I believe some of the old German U. mines after reclimation now have housing over them and there is the same problem with radon in basements.

2nd Jul 2019 03:36 UTCChristopher J. Nohl

There is some confusion here because people are talking about Chinese fluorite from at least three different locations. I will only address those such as Steve Hardinger first posted up above. I would like to add that there is quite a lot of reckless speculation coming out of a lot of people which I don’t think is good for anyone really. We ought be be fact based where possible. I have yet to see any scientific work where anyone has succeeded in artificially irradiating fluorite to any color other than primary purple - blue. I am interested in additional peer reviewed scientific articles if anyone has them.

Some people have said that the highly saturated blue is rare to not seen in nature. This is false. Just off the top of my head the Furnace in France produced highly saturated royal blue as did Minerva in Illinois and Asturias in Spain. A handful of old German locals too. So nature can and does produce such things.

I have examined in hand approximately 400 of the type Steve Hardinger posted above. I will say that some of the top pieces from this find are among the most beautiful, the finest, that I have ever seen. And my wife and I are avid fluorite collectors. I create location reference maps in my spare time and the most I have ever sold a fluorite for is $675k (an Illinois). I know what I’m talking about. But, yes, the sheer quality does make one sceptical as it should. It is not often though it does happen that a find is this very fine.

Here is what makes me think they are natural: Some pieces have totally white quartz, others a golden-light Smokey color and some a deeper smoky color. 1) The color of the quartz is not related to the color of the fluorite (the fluorite can be the same saturation no matter the color of the quartz indicating a different color mechanism), 2) these pieces color-change AND show strong daylight fluorescence like Rogerly, 3) magnification at over 100x shows prolific fluid inclusions that appear undisturbed, 4) color is actually highly zoned (one possibility we considered was dye sublimation) in such a way that the blue zones form subsurface block patterns surrounded by lime green (a feature seen also in the Namibian “Prodigy Pocket’) but inconsistent with point source irradiation, 5) the color of the fluorite is consistent even when invested in matrix and quarts up to 10cm, 6) in matrix pieces covered in quartz the quartz in some pieces is darkest 4 cm below the exterior surface of the matrix, 7) the largest crystals are 20+cms and show consistent coloration even internally, 8) they do not fade in color when exposed to sunlight for 1 month, 9) the exterior beveled surfaces of the crystals is bright line green, meaning the blue is subsurface as cross-sections show, 10) some pieces have central purple phantoms. These are my reasons for saying irradiation could not by any known method produce all of these effects and characteristics inconsistent with artificial doping.

I do not mean to say that artificial coloring of fluorite is not happening. I only mean to say that it is not happening from all observable facts on pieces such as Steve Hardinger originally posted. I believe in time these will be recognized for what they are: a spectacular fluorite find. I have remained silent so far for largely selfish reasons and for that I apologize.

These come from the now closed Sanming Mine in Fujian Province.

2nd Jul 2019 11:08 UTCWayne Corwin

These are natural blue https://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=6845&min=1576

from the Quabbin Aqueduct Shaft #10 locality, Hardwick, Worcester Co., Massachusetts, USA

2nd Jul 2019 12:53 UTCBob Harman

For Mr. CHRISTOPHER J NOHL.

As you are a new Mindat member, I read your previous discussion with some interest.

What really caught my attention was the sentence where you state that you sold an Illinois fluorite specimen for $675,000 dollars. I have seen some of the finest examples from the Illinois fluorite district and know they brought very hi prices in recent sales from recognized well known collectors, but no single example, to my knowledge, approached the price you mentioned.

I, and I suspect others on this website, would like to see a few pictures of that specimen! Even with very private sales and very private collectors, some photos of a half million dollar+ Illinois fluorite example must exist. Yes??? In this case a specimen picture would be worth a thousand words about price!

CHEERS.....BOB

11th Jul 2019 23:52 UTCIan Nicastro

https://www.instagram.com/p/BzywXXOArQZ/?igshid=q2cw05oanhrs I feel this will be of interest to your discussion as Rob has actually been in some of these mines.

18th Apr 2023 06:03 UTCFrancis Chee

I know I'm replying to a very old thread here but I found this very old reference, it's by Professor Charles A. Sorrel. Maybe if one is older than 60 years then u might have heard this name; he wrote many books, one for "kids of the day" entitled:

Minerals of The World (hardly a kid's book for todays kids lol) but in this book on the section dealing with the Fluorite Group, he mentions natural color changes via interaction with radiation and or temperature of crystallisation. Sure maybe the discussion is did they stick the samples into some "cooling ponds" and give it a good dose of gammas LOL, seen that done personally for glassware and the results.

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