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Improving Mindat.orgPaulkerrite?

28th Nov 2011 20:49 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Hi,

are you sure about the paulkerrite? is the sample analysed?

http://www.mindat.org/photo-427393.html

Sorry, but i have my doubts.

Im my opinion, the most probable is to be phosphosiderite.



Cheers,

Pedro Alves

28th Nov 2011 20:54 UTCPeter Haas

which photo ?

29th Nov 2011 10:47 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Most probably you are right, Pedro.

Ciao.

29th Nov 2011 12:04 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

The photo is so bad that how can you know?

29th Nov 2011 12:57 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Reiner,

the photo is useless. My proposal is based on typical association (benyacarite + phosphosiderite) and, described by the photo's author, an usual phosphosiderite habit.


Sorry but, for me, the paulkerrite (at Folgosinho) is not proved yet...


Cheers,

Pedro Alves

29th Nov 2011 16:28 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

Is this article in error?


Schnorrer, G. & Tetzer, G. (2005): Paulkerrite, K(Mg,Mn)2Fe2Ti<(OH)3|(PO4)4>×15H2O from Folgosinho quarry in Portugal, an additional locality for this rare compound. Aufschluss 56, 258-260. (in German).

29th Nov 2011 17:49 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Dear van,

i have a great respect to the authors, but in the article above i can't find any reference to the techniques used to identify the species or results.

In this case, can we assume that as a credible reference?


Cheers,

Pedro Alves

29th Nov 2011 19:27 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Are you saying you think all paulkerrite is benyacarite, Pedro?


I agree on the picture btw.

29th Nov 2011 20:24 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

dear Pedro,


Glad to know that the identification appears to be a guess rather than supported by data. perhaps it was merely x-rayed?

29th Nov 2011 20:35 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Message sent.


"... but in the article above i can't find any reference to the techniques used to identify the species or results."


Schnorrer usually analysed minerals by SEM-EDS and PXRD.

I will check the article.

29th Nov 2011 20:52 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager

BTW The formula given at Mindat seems to be 2 positive charges away from being balanced, unless they meant H3O.

29th Nov 2011 21:36 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Eddy,

«Are you saying you think all paulkerrite is benyacarite, Pedro? » No, that is something i can't assure. But, in my experience, all the probable 'paulkerrite' analysed turned out to be Benyacarite.


Cheers,

pedro Alves

30th Nov 2011 08:03 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Pedro, I am working on some specimens from Folgoshino (of Chiappino) searching possible paulkerrite crystals...

I will inform about the results.

Ciao.

30th Nov 2011 10:43 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Ciao Marco,

many thanks in advance.

I'm working on an article about Folgosinho, that will be helpfull (for all).


Ciao,

Pedro

30th Nov 2011 20:29 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

OK Pedro,

I will pass the results as soon as they will be closed.

Ciao. Marco

30th Nov 2011 21:09 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Please keep me posted guys.

And if you need more specimens, I have plenty.

30th Nov 2011 22:34 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Eddy,

please can you send to me just one small specimen?

My address is:

Marco Ciriotti

via San Pietro, 55

I-10073 Devesi-Ciriè (Italy)


I will analize (EDX + SC-XRD, if necessary).

Thank you very very much.

Cheers. Marco

1st Dec 2011 21:34 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Will do Marco.

Will ship on monday morning.

2nd Dec 2011 09:05 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I checked the Schnorrer & Tetzer (2005) article.

Roughly translated it says "X-ray and chemical studies led to the identification of ... paulkerrite". No details are given, however, on either techniques used or results of the chemical analyses (such as approximate formula, impurity elements, homogeneity, ...).

The article notes that the xls are colour-zoned (pale and dark yellow) and states "presently ... it is unclear if one of the zones corresponds to benyacarite or not".


So there are clearly some open questions.

2nd Dec 2011 09:45 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Thank Eddy and thank you Uwe.

I will inform about the quantitative INCA SEM-EDX results of the Eddy specimen etc.

2nd Dec 2011 13:56 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Since we are talking about Folgosinho and we are in the right place(mistakes and errors) to discuss these questions.

The place we know as Folgosinho

http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html

is not a quarry, it's a mine called "Sítio do Castelo". First a W mine and later a W and Quartz mine.

The localities, here on Mindat,

http://www.mindat.org/loc-29799.html

http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html

are wrong.

There are no quarries there.


The dumps at http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html are probably from other mines at Folgosinho (Serra do Gato, ladeira de Cramão). If anyone has more concrete data, I think it is risky to to associate it to 'Sítio do Castelo' (the well know phosphate locality) but may remain less precise as: Folgosinho, Guarda...


Cheers,

Pedro Alves

2nd Dec 2011 16:22 UTCFrank de Wit Manager

Hi Pedro,


I don't know about local names, but everyone calls the quarry/mines there with the same name as the nearby town of Folgosinho. If you have the correct local mine-names. Super. Let's add them.

On top of the quarry (in photo http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html), there are entrances to small underground works. And adits elsewhere around the quarry... 2003: 8 years ago. Time flies when you're having fun... I must take time to upload the pictures from underground there...


Cheers, Frank

2nd Dec 2011 16:36 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Hi Frank,

the underground works you are talking about are related to Sitio do castelo mine. Those works were made in the first phase (when only tungsten was explored).


Cheers,

Pedro

7th Dec 2011 12:02 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Meanwhile, can I put some oil on the fire?

If paulkerrite/benyacarite is a possible, shouldn't we be looking for Mantienneite as well??

I know that is supposed to be brownish and not greenish yellow, but the formula suggests

it is likely to be present as well no?

10th Dec 2011 16:41 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Package is on its way to Italy, with some delay...

17th Dec 2011 21:21 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Dear Eddy and dear Alves,

I analyzed (quantitative with standard INCA SEM-EDX) today 7 cystals from the specimens of Eddy, 5 crystals from specimens of Luigi Chiappino. Matrix are notably different but the results are ever the same: banyacarite!

Any trace of Mg in all the specimens!

18th Dec 2011 00:05 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Ciao Marco,

thank you very much for your noble gesture and disponibility to share, so quickly, the information/results with us.

Unfortunately, it turned out as expected.


Cheers,

Pedro

18th Dec 2011 10:57 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

Ciao Pedro,

if usefull for you I can pass the analythical report.

You can reply directly to: m.ciriotti@tin.it


Buone Feste!

Marco

18th Dec 2011 15:15 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Thanks for your efforts, Marco!


But then... should we remove paulkerrite from the locality...?

What do you think guys?

18th Dec 2011 15:40 UTCJean-Marc Johannet Manager

Not sure, there is at least one photo which indicates 'EDS verified material'

http://www.mindat.org/photo-79566.html

18th Dec 2011 16:16 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Don't know how you would verify it with EDS since both Paulkerrite and Banyacarite can contain the same elements.

18th Dec 2011 16:29 UTCSerge Lavarde Expert

Hi all,


With this article: Schnorrer, G. & Tetzer, G. (2005): Paulkerrite, K(Mg,Mn)2Fe2Ti<(OH)3|(PO4)4>×15H2O from Folgosinho quarry in Portugal, an additional locality for this rare compound. Aufschluss 56, 258-260, we have to believe that Paulkerrite really exists to Folgosinho, and evidence to the contrary, we don't have found it yet.

For me, we must keep this mineral in the list, due to that reference, but I think it's necessary to contact the persons having deposited a photo under the name of Paulkerrite, except http://www.mindat.org/photo-79566.html. It will be necessary to publish them under the name of Benyacarite.

When the authors of the article discovered Paulkerrite, Folgosinho was still in activity.

For those who know this locality, there are big dumps and we have still some more minerals to discover. We spoke about it with Pierre Rosseel and Ludo Vaeck when we met us in spring, over there.

I don’t know in which parts were found the samples analyzed, and in which paragenesis. For my part, I found samples in several areas and among several minerals which I don’t manage to identify are these two minerals, and have numerous samples left to the analysis.

I will keep you informed about the results.

Merry Christmas !


Serge

18th Dec 2011 19:53 UTCMarco E. Ciriotti Manager

>>Don't know how you would verify it with EDS since both Paulkerrite and Banyacarite can contain the same elements.


If there is not any trace of Mg in the analysis surely it is not paulkerrite. The two minerals are not with the same elements.


As I wrote I have not found paulkerrite in the analyzed specimens. This is not the absolute prouve of the non existence of paulkerrite at Folgosinho.

20th Dec 2011 13:55 UTCMichel Ambroise

Pedro Alves écrivait:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Since we are talking about Folgosinho and we are

> in the right place(mistakes and errors) to discuss

> these questions.

> The place we know as Folgosinho

> http://www.mindat.org/photo-123320.html

> is not a quarry, it's a mine called "Sítio do

> Castelo". First a W mine and later a W and Quartz

> mine.

> The localities, here on Mindat,

> http://www.mindat.org/loc-29799.html

> http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html

> are wrong.

> There are no quarries there.

>

> The dumps at http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html

> are probably from other mines at Folgosinho (Serra

> do Gato, ladeira de Cramão). If anyone has more

> concrete data, I think it is risky to to associate

> it to 'Sítio do Castelo' (the well know phosphate

> locality) but may remain less precise as:

> Folgosinho, Guarda...

>

> Cheers,

> Pedro Alves



Hello all,


I have already point out this general problem in Potuguese locality.

This is an other example of the problem.

A lot of locality from Portugal have a lack of accurate information or/and wrong informations!!!!!


Because of my interest for minerals in Portugal and Portugal also, i personnally collect informations about mines.

I already register over 500 mines on google earth.

But the job is not easy because in some mining district there is sometime over 20 differents mines and all of them have a local name...


The problem is to find this local name.

But the other problem is to know under wich name this mine have been registered!!!!!

This is not easy when you can't access to this data.

For sure more easy for Portuguese collector.


I have seen the multiplication of Portuguese locality since a year or two, some of them without any informations, sometime even not a picture..


I can do that also, adding hundreds of new locality that i can pick up in the book i have , geological maps i have, internet etc...


A good example here:


http://www.mindat.org/loc-130624.html


I can add 10 like that around Queiriga, with accurate bibliography!!!!!!


Pedro Alves is absolutly right asking for more accurate informations about Folgosinho, because how can we discuss about a mineral from "around there" if we don't even know where we are??????



Michel

20th Dec 2011 15:38 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Salut Michel,

Mindat is, if i'm rigth, a database in progress . We can add a locality with the only information disponible, but rigth and precise: the name of the mine and the location.

The minerals we found there, the mine history, geological reports, ect... Can and must be added by the natural growing process (of a progressive database).

And, less is more. When less is reliable, and more is incongruous or even incorrect.


Your claim is understandable and positive, we are all working on that. Less or more ;-)


Best regards,

Pedro Alves

20th Dec 2011 20:37 UTCRui Nunes 🌟 Expert

"I have already point out this general problem in Potuguese locality.

This is an other example of the problem.

A lot of locality from Portugal have a lack of accurate information or/and wrong informations!!!!!

...

I have seen the multiplication of Portuguese locality since a year or two, some of them without any informations, sometime even not a picture..

I can do that also, adding hundreds of new locality that i can pick up in the book i have , geological maps i have, internet etc... "



... and????



Pedro is right! We are doing OUR homework. Any help is welcome.


Best regards


RN

20th Dec 2011 22:38 UTCJacques-Yves Desescaut

Bonjour

Je pense que c'est moi qui est rentré Folgosinho Quary N°2

Les photos du site sur mindat http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html

ne correspondent pas a la localisation de cet indice

les photos montrent les dépots situes au début du chemin qui menent au sitio du castelo

Site ou apres une courte visite j'ai trouvé dans du quartz des tourmalines( voir photo) Il est situé

apres avoir traversé Folgosinho , puis pris la direction de la serra par une piste

Actuellement je n'ai pas la possibilité de vous joindre une photo aerienne de ce site Je le ferai debut janvier

Peut-etre on pourra donner un vrai nom à ce site

djy

21st Dec 2011 08:38 UTCMichel Ambroise

Hello,


Jean Yves says that he problably enter the data for the "folgosinho quarry N 2"


The pictures in the link http://www.mindat.org/sitegallery.php?loc=68871 don't show this locality but the dump at the begining of the "road" to sitio do castello..


In that place he found some tourmaline in quartz like show in that picture

http://www.mindat.org/photo-72330.html


Begining of january he will add a aerial photo of the place , may be some one wille be able to give a real name for this locality..




I hope this translation is correct and helpfull for every one..


Michel

21st Dec 2011 09:11 UTCMichel Ambroise

Rui P Nunes écrivait:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

> Pedro is right! We are doing OUR homework. Any

> help is welcome.

>

> Best regards

>

> R



I hope you don't take my word personally if so i apologize .


I will try to be more helpfull in the future with the data but if i can locate a mine after some search on books, maps, from France, having more accurate information about the real name is extremelly difficult for me.


I simply don't want to add new location like the "ribeiro da queiriga" because it's not usefull..



Michel

21st Dec 2011 16:49 UTCMichel Ambroise

Rui and Pedro


It was may be the right time to start ;-)


So check my home page in a couple of days, i have add new pictures of mineral from Portugal.


It need to be approved first.


Enjoy:-)


And have nice christmas and happy new year

23rd Dec 2011 21:32 UTCJacques-Yves Desescaut

Bonjour Voici la localisation de Folgosinho Quarry N2

Là ou j'ai trouvé

http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=68871


Il reste à mettre un nom exact à cet indice

djy

24th Dec 2011 11:01 UTCMichel Ambroise

Hello,


Jean yves says that he have locate the folgosinho quarry n2 where he found this


http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?loc=68871


Open the file to see the location.




This is what i found from my side


For the exact name of that place i can see on the geological map and also on 25000 map the name "Vale da moira" or "Quinta da Moira"


The geological map show two veins in that part, included in a porfiroid granit, (granito porfiroide de grao medio ou medio a fino)


Two veins of "basic rock" (filoes de rochas basicas) occurs in between the vale da moira indication...

The one i guess to be the one for the folgosinhos quarry n2 seems to be located in MELO and not Folgosinho area

But the nearest "Quinta da moira" is located in Sao piao and the work that Jean yves show at the limit of Melo and Sao piao but in Melo...


Information that i took from the instituto geografico de Portugal

http://www.igeoe.pt/home/home.asp


May be this work was registered somewhere but nothing in the "Dados da pedreira"


http://e-geo.ineti.pt/bds/pedreiras/default.aspx



Hope this will help


Have a nice christmas to all


Michel

23rd Feb 2012 17:20 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Hi again, just to close the topic.

The place called by DJY as Folgosinho quarry2 is a quartz and feldspar mine called: Alto dos Seixos nº2, at Gouveia (S. Pedro), Gouveia, Guarda.

The mine is very close to another mine:

Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2. An Sn mine at Melo, Gouveia, Guarda.


Cheers,

Pedro Alves

23rd Feb 2012 19:07 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Thanks, Pedro for clearifying this.


I have tried to correct the "Folgosinho quarry2"- locality according to this, please check if it is more correct now. : http://www.mindat.org/loc-68871.html


Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2 Mine entered as a new locality: http://www.mindat.org/loc-237341.html

23rd Feb 2012 19:28 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Hi Knut,

thanks for the changes.

There is just a small error.

The locality photos at the 'old' Folgosinho quarry2 are not from 'Alto dos Seixos nº2', they are related with a dump near Sitio do Castelo mine (AKA Folgosinho quarry). Those dumps are NOT in the area of any mine in the region.

The closest mine to this place is Maria Soares (quite close).


Cheers,

Pedro Alves

23rd Feb 2012 19:52 UTCKnut Edvard Larsen 🌟 Manager

Message sent on the photos

24th Feb 2012 01:50 UTCErrol Culver

Gentlemen,-

I have been following this debate with great interest, being that I am an amateur collector of micromounts and because my grandmother immigrated from Folgoshino to America back in the late 1930's. I have two questions to ask to anyone who might be able to help.

First,-Where is the mine located in relation to the town, I would love to locate it on Google Earth.

Second,-I have been wanting to have lab confirmation of the identity of several species of minerals that I have found in the San Francisco Bay Area of California, but do not know the beginning basics on how to get such confirmation or identification accomplished. One appears to be Yugawaralite epitaxial with Laumontite, a common paragenesis. Do I simply take the specimens to the nearest University, or is there a better way? ..and what am I looking at cost wise?

Sincerely,-Errol Culver of Fair Oaks, CA.

24th Feb 2012 09:04 UTCMichel Ambroise

Pedro Alves écrivait:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi Knut,

> thanks for the changes.

> There is just a small error.

> The locality photos at the 'old' Folgosinho

> quarry2 are not from 'Alto dos Seixos nº2', they

> are related with a dump near Sitio do Castelo mine

> (AKA Folgosinho quarry). Those dumps are NOT in

> the area of any mine in the region.

> The closest mine to this place is Maria Soares

> (quite close).

>

> Cheers,

> Pedro Alves


Hi Pedro,


Sure, there is no mine for the folgosinho quarry2.

The dump is may be from the two veins you can see on the geological map and nothing else...........


Read what i write before, and compare the location given by jean yves with 25000 map and google earth................


Two options, the dump is related to the vein or the dump is coming from somewhere else just to refill the bad "road"..

24th Feb 2012 14:21 UTCPedro Alves Expert

Salut Michel,

before yesterday changes, we had a locality called: Folgosinho quarry nº2.

The locality was added by DJY and was related with some works quite far from Folgosinho(Sitio do Castelo).

We had, also, some photos of the dumps in the way to Sitio do Castelo. But, the photos are not of the place called and added by DJY as Folgosinho Quarry nº2.


To clarify the place called by DJY as Folgosinho quarry nº2 is: )and i'm repeating myself) a quartz and feldspar mine called: Alto dos Seixos nº2, at Gouveia (S. Pedro), Gouveia, Guarda.

The mine is very close to another mine:

Vale de Santo Isidoro nº2. An Sn mine at Melo, Gouveia, Guarda.


The other place, the dumps in the way to Sitio do Castelo, is not included in any mining area. But, the place is quite close to Maria Soares Mine. Anyway that doesn't mean much. The material in the dumps can have a lot of proveniences...


Clear now?


Cheers,

Pedro Alves
 
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