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Improving Mindat.orgMorenosite?

3rd Oct 2012 01:12 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

http://www.mindat.org/photo-490097.html wrong color for morenosite looks more like honessite to me. Besides morenosite is extremely water soluble ( as soluble as halite) should be easy enough to test for that.

10th Oct 2012 11:10 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Message sent.

10th Oct 2012 16:45 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Noticed other Millerites at this locale where the suggestion of the nickel secondary is Morenosite. I also do note that Honessite is not on the species list for this site, even though it would appear that the Millerite is commonly altered to a secondary weathering product here.

Honessite preudos of Millerite are common at other localities, and Morensonite not so (Reiner's observation is sound), but I would suggest referring to published report of this site for making any additional changes. My gut says Honessite too, the coloration of Morenosite is usually edging more towards the bluish, but it's hardly a definitive observation. This may be a situation that Honessite is indeed present only on the dumps, and not reported insitu.

MRH

10th Oct 2012 17:06 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

As Reiner pointed out, morenosite is very soluble in water, so it should be easy to distinguish from honessite. Morenosite pseudomorphs after millerite would seem to be quite unlikely.

10th Oct 2012 17:26 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Green coatings on millerite should not be assigned to a particular mineral unless analytical work is done.

Some from Wales that were analysed proved to be mostly gypsum.

Jolyon

10th Oct 2012 17:45 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

I relied on the ID from Jordi Fabre, which has been carried over to the Mindat gallery. I'll be happy to delete morenosite rom the photo.

10th Oct 2012 18:50 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I suggest to ask Jordi Fabre how the ID was made.

10th Oct 2012 19:04 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

I'll e-mail him tonight, when I get home from work. I'll also break off a small piece and immerse it in hot water to check solubility.

11th Oct 2012 00:22 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

No need to use hot water, cold water works just as well.

11th Oct 2012 02:41 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

So far (after two hours) no discernible solubility observed. I use hot water to hasten the process; it's cold now!

11th Oct 2012 03:07 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

Here is a link that allows on-line reading of the primary reference for the Eugenia Mine. There are two occurrences of "morenosita" in the 138-page book. See pages 114 and 121. Can anyone translate?

http://www.ebookdb.org/reading/3613623B257F271410171269/Minerals-I-Mines-De-La-Conca-De-Bellmunt-Del-Priorat

Steve

11th Oct 2012 04:08 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Steve, page 113-114 just say that the green stuff could be jamborite or hydrohonessite, but that there wasn't a large enough quantity for optimum analysis and so some other species can't be ruled out; and previous literature used to indiscriminately and erroneously describe every green mineral there as morenosite.

Then p 121 just puts morenosite on the list as "rare" at the Eugenia mine.

11th Oct 2012 08:09 UTCChris Mavris Manager

Rio delle Marne (Parma Province) has provided millerite associated or coated by green mineral, attributed to jamborite. Refer to the following publication for the finding: Adorni F. (1988) - I minerali della idrotermalite del Rio delle Marne, (PR) - Rivista Mineralogica Italiana, Milano, fasc. 3, pp. 83-90

I am not sure whether the author himself describes the phase as jamborite in this work, not whether (and how) it has been determined. What I can tell is that people from the local mineral club had literally tens of these specimens. At the time, I had found quite a few myself, as well...

Also in Bologna there was a similar finding.

Here are a few examples:

http://www.mindat.org/photo-197020.html

http://www.mindat.org/photo-196944.html

http://www.mindat.org/photo-196587.html

http://www.mindat.org/photo-196577.html

11th Oct 2012 16:44 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

The water test for sure rules out morenosite, if morenosite the green coating would have dissolved almost instantly. The label on the photo needs to be changed.

11th Oct 2012 16:54 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Done.

11th Oct 2012 20:50 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

I was planning to do that tonight. No need to correct my own errors in the Mindat world!

27th Nov 2012 03:37 UTCSteve Stuart Expert

I received a response from Jordi Fabre to my inquiry about the morenosite ID for the green coating. He sent me the original label from the Folch collection with morenosite as the ID. He also indicates that Joan Abella has done further analyses of the material and says that it is actually jamborite.

Regards,

Steve

27th Nov 2012 16:14 UTCJOAN ABELLA CREUS

Dear colleagues,

The first analyses by X-ray diffraction that we realize, indicated Jamborita, with low intensity peaks. In a few days we will realize new analyses, with a new equipment of diffraction of X-rays, for to confirm the nature of the Jamborita of Eugenia Mine Bellmunt del Priorat, Tarragona, Spain.

The Morenosita qualified erroneously many years ago for chemical methods, in samples of possible Jamborite covered with gypsum!.

Best regards.

Joan Abella i Creus

28th Nov 2012 16:10 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Jamborite is now considered a questionable species.

Mills, S.J., Christy, A.G., Genin, J.-M.R., Kameda, T., Colombo, F. (2012): Nomenclature of the hydrotalcite supergroup: natural layered double hydroxides. Mineralogical Magazine, 76, 1289-1336.

(...)

(4) Jamborite, carrboydite, zincaluminite, motukoreaite, natroglaucocerinite, brugnatellite and muskoxite are identified as questionable species which need further investigation in order to verify their structure and composition.

(...)

28th Nov 2012 22:21 UTCIan Jones Expert

Jolyon & Katya Ralph Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Green coatings on millerite should not be assigned

> to a particular mineral unless analytical work is

> done.

>

> Some from Wales that were analysed proved to be

> mostly gypsum.

>

> Jolyon

The green alteration from Wales is usually called morenosite in the literature, but I have always doubted this due to its solubility - south Wales and it's coaltips are not generally noted for their dryness.

I had a number of them analysed at the National Museum of Wales, but they were all inconclusive. As far as I know, the only definitive analysis of the green alteration from Wales proved to be nickelhexahydrite. This was on a specimen from Llanbradach Colliery that Pete Williams at the University of Western Sydney carried out for me.

generally very suspicious of references of morenosite on millerite from damp locations.

29th Nov 2012 00:12 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Ian,

Interesting that you found nickelhexahydrite since it is just as soluble in water as morenosite.

29th Nov 2012 22:20 UTCIan Jones Expert

Reiner Mielke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hello Ian,

>

> Interesting that you found nickelhexahydrite

> since it is just as soluble in water as

> morenosite.

hi reiner

didn't realise that it was as soluble as morenosite, which is interesting, but don't doubt pete william's analysis.

it is still the only definitive millerite secondary identified from the south wales coalfield out of quite a number that proved inconclusive

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